Is there a difference between the way Jews and Christians understand "Zionism"?

Kung Fu said:

Jews throughout history have been oppressed and or booted out but the question is why have many people from varying tribes, clans, nations, and geographies gone out and done this? Can it be that all these different people of tribes, clans, and nations spanning over multiple continents and different time periods just want to go after the Jews only as a kind of scapegoat? Well if people actually believe that, which Zionists want you to believe, than not only is that practically improbable but downright stupid to think.

I believe there is a significant amount of a specific group of Jews that are doing things that EVERYONE else views as deceitful and immoral which then gets all the Jews in trouble.

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I know this was written awhile back, I'll answer (in theory) that its because of Psalm 83

1.O God, do not remain silent;
do not turn a deaf ear,
do not stand aloof, O God.
2 See how your enemies growl,
how your foes rear their heads.
3 With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
4 “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
so that Israel’s name is remembered no more.”
5 With one mind they plot together;
they form an alliance against you—
6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
of Moab and the Hagrites,
7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
8 Even Assyria has joined them
to reinforce Lot’s descendants.[b]

KoncreteMind said:

I know this was written awhile back, I'll answer (in theory) that its because of Psalm 83

1.O God, do not remain silent;
do not turn a deaf ear,
do not stand aloof, O God.
2 See how your enemies growl,
how your foes rear their heads.
3 With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
4 “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
so that Israel’s name is remembered no more.”
5 With one mind they plot together;
they form an alliance against you—
6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
of Moab and the Hagrites,
7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
8 Even Assyria has joined them
to reinforce Lot’s descendants.[b]

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How do you mean this, exactly? Are you speaking of how they figure into prophecy?

KoncreteMind said:

I know this was written awhile back, I'll answer (in theory) that its because of Psalm 83

1.O God, do not remain silent;
do not turn a deaf ear,
do not stand aloof, O God.
2 See how your enemies growl,
how your foes rear their heads.
3 With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
4 “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
so that Israel’s name is remembered no more.”
5 With one mind they plot together;
they form an alliance against you—
6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
of Moab and the Hagrites,
7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
8 Even Assyria has joined them
to reinforce Lot’s descendants.[b]

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I could understand this if it was only caged in a certain area during a certain time period but it hasn't. People of all backgrounds, different eras, and different geographic regions have had issues with these "Jews" and I don't believe you can chalk that all up to simply them being oppressed because people are jealous that they're the "chosen people".

For example, right now many can see what they're doing to nations with their banks, usury, media, pornography, and etc. and everything I listed has nothing to do with them being simply "Jews" but because they partake, as a group, in things that people deep down despise because it ruins societies.

Israel, at the moment doesn't seem to be in danger in fact it's the Palestinians that are trying to wiped out and forgotten as a nation by the Jews with the help of other Satan worshipers. It's funny because these verses seem to fit the Palestinians more than it does the modern day Jew.

Serveto said:

Written, it is said, by the warrior King David, of whom the daughters of Zion so approvingly sang:

"... Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands."​

(1 Samuel 18:7) ​

It seems to me that DNA specific weapons could conceivably solve his problem and stop his lament. Depending upon who develops the weapons first, and how much they hate their neighbors, I suppose, in a final would-be inversion of the Beatitudes, it could be ultimately written:

"Blessed are the [insert specific genetic haplogroup], for they shall inherit the [corpse-ridden] Earth." ​

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Verse chosen at random for the bolded part, lest we believe that these men were victors by any other means than divine will... but it is the day the sun stood still.

And Jehovah saith unto Joshua, 'Be not afraid of them, for into thy hand I have given them, there doth not stand a man of them in thy presence.'
Joshua 10:8

Serveto said:

When you refer to "divine will," are you referring to this Lord (which, though I have not confirmed, is probably the Tetragrammaton, also known as Jehovah, in the original Hebrew)?

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name."​

(Exodus 15:3)​

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You bet.

Here is the whole song that Moses sang to Jehovah, with the Israelites-- context never hurts.

Then singeth Moses and the sons of Israel this song to Jehovah, and they speak, saying: — ‘I sing to Jehovah, For triumphing He hath triumphed; The horse and its rider He hath thrown into the sea.

2My strength and song is JAH, And He is become my salvation: This [is] my God, and I glorify Him; God of my father, and I exalt Him.

3Jehovah [is] a man of battle; Jehovah [is] His name.

4Chariots of Pharaoh and his force He hath cast into the sea; And the choice of his captains Have sunk in the Red Sea!

5The depths do cover them; They went down into the depths as a stone.

6Thy right hand, O Jehovah, Is become honourable in power; Thy right hand, O Jehovah, Doth crush an enemy.

7And in the abundance of Thine excellency Thou throwest down Thy withstanders, Thou sendest forth Thy wrath — It consumeth them as stubble.

8And by the spirit of Thine anger Have waters been heaped together; Stood as a heap have flowings; Congealed have been depths In the heart of a sea.

9The enemy said, I pursue, I overtake; I apportion spoil; Filled is my soul with them; I draw out my sword; My hand destroyeth them: —

10Thou hast blown with Thy wind The sea hath covered them; They sank as lead in mighty waters.

11Who [is] like Thee among the gods, O Jehovah? Who [is] like Thee — honourable in holiness — Fearful in praises — doing wonders?

12Thou hast stretched out Thy right hand — Earth swalloweth them!

13Thou hast led forth in Thy kindness The people whom Thou hast redeemed. Thou hast led on in Thy strength Unto Thy holy habitation.

14Peoples have heard, they are troubled; Pain hath seized inhabitants of Philistia.

15Then have chiefs of Edom been troubled: Mighty ones of Moab — Trembling doth seize them! Melted have all inhabitants of Canaan!

16Fall on them doth terror and dread; By the greatness of Thine arm They are still as a stone, Till Thy people pass over, O Jehovah; Till the people pass over Whom Thou hast purchased.

17Thou dost bring them in, And dost plant them In a mountain of Thine inheritance, A fixed place for Thy dwelling Thou hast made, O Jehovah; A sanctuary, O Lord, Thy hands have established;

18Jehovah reigneth — to the age, and for ever!’

19For the horse of Pharaoh hath gone in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and Jehovah turneth back on them the waters of the sea, and the sons of Israel have gone on dry land in the midst of the sea.

20And Miriam the inspired one, sister of Aaron, taketh the timbrel in her hand, and all the women go out after her, with timbrels and with choruses;

21and Miriam answereth to them: — ‘Sing ye to Jehovah, For Triumphing He hath triumphed; The horse and its rider He hath thrown into the sea!’

Serveto said:

I thought so, and had a hunch.

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It was written several thousand years ago.. it's not a secret.

elsbet said:

How do you mean this, exactly? Are you speaking of how they figure into prophecy?

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Psalm 83, if Im understanding it correctly, says that many nations banded together to come against Israel so that they would not be remembered anymore. And I think this ties into KF's question as to why they've been kicked out of so many different places. It was never a scapegoat issue as its a jealousy issue of their position with God.. Imo of course.

elsbet said:

It was written several thousand years ago.. it's not a secret.

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Granted. However, what might be interesting, at least to some, is that, just as Palestinians are sometimes, especially by Jewish ultra-nationalist "settlers," identified as Amelekites, "Edom [Esau]" is also a code word, of sorts, for Christians and Christianity {paragraph iv}. Thus, and depending upon how this following Psalm is read and interpreted, Christians are part of the problem, not solution, even if they are temporarily politically useful for certain geopolitical ends:

Kung Fu said:

I could understand this if it was only caged in a certain area during a certain time period but it hasn't. People of all backgrounds, different eras, and different geographic regions have had issues with these "Jews" and I don't believe you can chalk that all up to simply them being oppressed because people are jealous that they're the "chosen people".

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Well if we go by the bible, when in obedience, the Jews get blessed beyond measure. Deuteronomy 28:1-15 speaks about that. Nations foreign to them also understood this as was written in the apocryphal book Judith (5):


When everything was on the up and up concerning their faith, and they got blessed whether in their own country or another, I do think it was an aspect of jealousy that led to them being kicked out. This was an Ammonite leader speaking here so these countries understood this concept of obedience = blessings disobedience = curses.

For example, right now many can see what they're doing to nations with their banks, usury, media, pornography, and etc. and everything I listed has nothing to do with them being simply "Jews" but because they partake, as a group, in things that people deep down despise because it ruins societies.

Israel, at the moment doesn't seem to be in danger in fact it's the Palestinians that are trying to wiped out and forgotten as a nation by the Jews with the help of other Satan worshipers. It's funny because these verses seem to fit the Palestinians more than it does the modern day Jew.

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All I'll say is that biblically speaking you cant be "Ashkenazi" and a "Jew" at the same time. Both come from Noah, but one comes from Japheth and the other from Shem. And Genesis 9 says that Japheth would be in the tents of Shem (or something like that). In regards to the two verses I brought up before, I think its clear that if we are to believe the bible, that there is a conundrum with Jews being secular, yet being at the head of society like they are allegedly said to be.

If it is speaking of the Palestinians, and they're in the right, why isnt their God protecting them? From my pov, they're losing the battle over there in Israel. I say this in respect to their plight, but I think its a fair question...

Serveto said:

Written, it is said, by the warrior King David, of whom the daughters of Zion so approvingly sang:

"... Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands."​

(1 Samuel 18:7) ​

It seems to me that DNA specific weapons could conceivably solve his problem and stop his lament. Depending upon who develops the weapons first, and how much they hate their neighbors, I suppose, in a final would-be inversion of the Beatitudes, it could be ultimately written:

"Blessed are the [insert specific genetic haplogroup], for they shall inherit the [corpse-ridden] Earth." ​

Click to expand...

The bible (i.e. OT) does say that God would give the world to Israel and those that were grafted into them. Whether people believe that or if it even will happen remains to be seen for some. Beyond that, Im having trouble grasping your point in regards to what I posted. Mind explaining the "DNA specific weapons" point in regards to nations forming a confederacy against Israel (supposedly that is)? Are you saying that "DNA specific weapon" would solve the problem of this confederacy for Israel?

@KoncreteMind

"All I'll say is that biblically speaking you cant be "Ashkenazi" and a "Jew" at the same time."

This is an interesting one as it raises the obvious question -

To what countries did the Jews go to following the destruction of the Temple and the Bar Kokhba Rebellion from 132 to 135 which was crushed by Emperor Hadrian. After the defeat, Judea was renamed to Syria Palestina to remove any historic Jewish connection to the land.

Shlomo Sand states:
Two thousand years of wandering brought the Jews to Yemen, Morocco, Spain, Germany, Poland and deep into Russia. But, the story goes, they always managed to preserve blood links between their scattered communities. Their uniqueness was never compromised.
At the end of the 19th century conditions began to favour their return to their ancient homeland. If it had not been for the Nazi genocide, millions of Jews would have fulfilled the dream of 20 centuries and repopulated Eretz Israel, the biblical land of Israel. Palestine, a virgin land, had been waiting for its original inhabitants to return and awaken it.

The Jewish people remained a distinct culture throughout the countries that they’ve dwelt in despite severe persecution by many claiming to be “Christians” including the Holocaust where over 6 million perished.

http://www.ephesians611.com/i710-destruction-of-jerusalem-70-ad-prophecy-fulfilled/

KoncreteMind said:

If it is speaking of the Palestinians, and they're in the right, why isnt their God protecting them? From my pov, they're losing the battle over there in Israel. I say this in respect to their plight, but I think its a fair question...

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Good question KM.....
History is not over yet.....btw
People of all faiths and paths suffer including the Jews during the Holocaust.

The Creator requires Muslims to do their part and then place their trust in Allah the Most High.
"Indeed Allah will help those who help Him. Indeed Allah is Exalted in Might, All-Powerful."
Al-Qur'an 22:40


Our communities are being tested and certain individuals may be tested and justice is not like that of the time of the older Prophets peace be upon them, divine justice it is not immediate. However, these people are on His leash and when the time is up they will run no more.
I personally think that Muslims need to change our mindset in regards to this world and the hereafter.
Here is an endtimes prophecy:

KoncreteMind said:

Well if we go by the bible, when in obedience, the Jews get blessed beyond measure.

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Neither you nor I would say that Jews are obedient today seeing as polls suggest many of them are secular in nature but yet many would agree that in terms of this world and worldly gain they have been "blessed" greatly.

KoncreteMind said:

When everything was on the up and up concerning their faith, and they got blessed whether in their own country or another, I do think it was an aspect of jealousy that led to them being kicked out. This was an Ammonite leader speaking here so these countries understood this concept of obedience = blessings disobedience = curses.

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I can' speak on what happened two thousands years ago but I can speak on modernity and the not too distant past concerning Jewish deceitful behaviour. It's not mathematically probably that people during different time periods, across continents, and of various backgrounds have all solely kicked out the Jews. All one has to do is look at what the Jews are doing today and why people don't like them all too much. When you one group considers another group as cattle and slaves it tends to piss people off.

KoncreteMind said:

If it is speaking of the Palestinians, and they're in the right, why isnt their God protecting them? From my pov, they're losing the battle over there in Israel. I say this in respect to their plight, but I think its a fair question...

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Well there's only One God. I agree they are losing the battle but things turn around unexpectedly for example, who would have thought that a group of goat herders 1400 years ago would be able to take on the Romans and Persian empires, two of the strongest empires in the world at the time, and come out victorious. From an Islamic point of view just because things might not seem like they're going your way doesn't mean you're being punished and vice versa. The Most High is also the Most Wise and only in the end will we see the true motives behind everything.

Serveto said:

Granted. However, what might be interesting, at least to some, is that, just as Palestinians are sometimes, especially by Jewish ultra-nationalist "settlers," identified as Amelekites, "Edom [Esau]" is also a code word, of sorts, for Christians and Christianity {paragraph iv}. Thus, and depending upon how this following Psalm is read and interpreted, Christians are part of the problem, not solution, even if they are temporarily politically useful for certain geopolitical ends:

4 “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,​

so that Israel’s name is remembered no more.”​

5 With one mind they plot together;​

they form an alliance against you—​

6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,​

of Moab and the Hagrites,​

7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,​

Philistia, with the people of Tyre.​

8 Even Assyria has joined them​

to reinforce Lot’s descendants.[b]​

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You cannot serve God and Maimonides.

I kid but I'm not a fan. I dont see him calling Christians Edomites in that paragraph.

Anyway... he's a strangebird.

elsbet said:

You cannot serve God and Maimonides.

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Brilliant ! For those who may have missed the literary reference, it is an excellent, witty play on these words {click here}.

elsbet said:

I kid but I'm not a fan. I dont see him calling Christians Edomites in that paragraph.

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I put Esau in brackets because I think, and I am far from a Biblical expert, that Esau and Edom are lineally and somehow said to be spiritually linked. With that said, Maimonides wrote:

elsbet said:

Anyway... he's a strangebird.

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Be that as it may, his opinions are considered authoritative, that is to say halachic, in normative, Orthodox Judaism, and it is with Judaism that many Zionist Christians are politically allied. That is one reason I quote him. When I want to understand Judaism, I go to one of its primary sources.

Kung Fu said:

Neither you nor I would say that Jews are obedient today seeing as polls suggest many of them are secular in nature but yet many would agree that in terms of this world and worldly gain they have been "blessed" greatly.

I can' speak on what happened two thousands years ago but I can speak on modernity and the not too distant past concerning Jewish deceitful behaviour. It's not mathematically probably that people during different time periods, across continents, and of various backgrounds have all solely kicked out the Jews. All one has to do is look at what the Jews are doing today and why people don't like them all too much. When you one group considers another group as cattle and slaves it tends to piss people off.

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I was just making the point of what the bible says. Historically they have been kicked out as a result of jealousy. Nowadays, theres that conundrum of them not obeying, yet being in positions that the bible (not me) says they can only be in if they obey. Something's going on there, but I was only speaking to you about the historical aspect of them getting kicked out of nations.

Well there's only One God. I agree they are losing the battle but things turn around unexpectedly for example, who would have thought that a group of goat herders 1400 years ago would be able to take on the Romans and Persian empires, two of the strongest empires in the world at the time, and come out victorious. From an Islamic point of view just because things might not seem like they're going your way doesn't mean you're being punished and vice versa. The Most High is also the Most Wise and only in the end will we see the true motives behind everything.

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Yes there may be only one God, but people versions of Him seem to be different. Anyways, I personally find it weird and maybe even wrong (though God can do or allow what He wills) that God would allow what some call satanists, to come to an innocent people (who are in the right) and slaughter them...

In the bible God allowed what some would call today "satanists" to come to Israel and slaughter them, but only when they were in disobedience. Do you think this is the case with the Palestinians?

Red Sky at Morning said:

@KoncreteMind

"All I'll say is that biblically speaking you cant be "Ashkenazi" and a "Jew" at the same time."

This is an interesting one as it raises the obvious question -

To what countries did the Jews go to following the destruction of the Temple and the Bar Kokhba Rebellion from 132 to 135 which was crushed by Emperor Hadrian.

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To be clear, I read your whole post before responding, but I had to stop it here as its not a question of where they went after the destruction of the temple but a question of genealogy going back to Noah

Genesis 10
1 This is the account of Shem, Ham and Japheth, Noah’s sons, who themselves had sons after the flood.
2 The sons[a] of Japheth:
Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshek and Tiras.
3 The sons of Gomer:
Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah.

Jews should not be descending from Ashkenaz, and further back, Japheth. They should be descending from Eber, and further back, Shem.

DesertRose said:

Good question KM.....
History is not over yet.....btw
People of all faiths and paths suffer including the Jews during the Holocaust.

The Creator requires Muslims to do their part and then place their trust in Allah the Most High.
"Indeed Allah will help those who help Him. Indeed Allah is Exalted in Might, All-Powerful."
Al-Qur'an 22:40


Our communities are being tested and certain individuals may be tested and justice is not like that of the time of the older Prophets peace be upon them, divine justice it is not immediate. However, these people are on His leash and when the time is up they will run no more.
I personally think that Muslims need to change our mindset in regards to this world and the hereafter.
Here is an endtimes prophecy:

“Nations are about to unite (and call) each other to set upon you, just as diners are invited to a plate of food.” It was said: “Will it be because of our lack of numbers that day (i.e. will be be small in number)?” He صلى الله عليه وسلم said: “Rather, you will be many on that day, but you will be like scum foam (that floats) on the river. Allaah will remove the fear of you from the hearts of your enemies and put Wahn into your hearts.” It was said: “O Messenger of Allaah, what is Wahn?” He صلى الله عليه وسلم said:“Love for the dunya (worldly life)and hatred for death.”​

[Related by Abu Da’wud, 4297 and others – graded as saheeh by Al-Albani in ‘Silsilah as-Saheehah’, 958]​

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But when you bring up the Jews and the Holocaust, they suffered (and some people argue if that was the case or not) and got immediate justice three years afterwards when they got free land to the detriment of the Palestinians. While the Palestinians have been suffering (from my pov at least) since the 7 years war (at least) and there seems to be no end in sight for them..

Serveto said:

I understand. It was a bit of tangent on my part.

Either way. If it's a racial war, all of the mentioned nations against Israel, or, what seems as likely to me, Israel against the other nations, which seems to be practically a leitmotif of the Old Testament, at times, a DNA specific weapon could prove quite useful, regardless of who first develops it, uses it and is ultimately thought to "win." Jesus is said to have identified "nation," Greek "ethnos," or race, rising against nation" as a sign of the end times, and we certainly seem to be witnessing that in full effect, not only in this century, but also in the last.

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Ok I see now. Well I dont think its about race moreso than being about God's will being established on earth. And for whatever reason, after the Tower of Babel where Nimrod/Kush set to start a NWO of its time, God chose Israel(starting with Abraham in that time) to be the vehicle to bringing His will to earth. And I use "Israel" as a group of people, not the nation state that the bankers created in the middle east.

I assume that anyone regardless of "race" that goes along with this will it will go well for and anyone that stands in the way of this will being established I assume it will not go well for them. Of course I speak from perspective of the bible being true while others may see that differently...

KoncreteMind said:

I was just making the point of what the bible says. Historically they have been kicked out as a result of jealousy. Nowadays, theres that conundrum of them not obeying, yet being in positions that the bible (not me) says they can only be in if they obey. Something's going on there, but I was only speaking to you about the historical aspect of them getting kicked out of nations.

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I'm of the opinion that many of the "Jews" settled in Israel and in Europe today aren't really Jewish and perhaps it's that which seems to throwing things "off". What do you believe that "something" is?

KoncreteMind said:

Yes there may be only one God, but people versions of Him seem to be different. Anyways, I personally find it weird and maybe even wrong (though God can do or allow what He wills) that God would allow what some call satanists, to come to an innocent people (who are in the right) and slaughter them...

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"Innocent" people die every day. You have countless amount of orphans, kids, and adults die everyday due to hunger. You have people walking home from work getting mugged and stabbed to death for a nickel. The Most High is the Most Wise and He clearly sees something that we can't just as kids want things that are no good for them but they know not but their parents are there to make sure to keep everything in check because of the wisdom they have which the kids don't.

KoncreteMind said:

In the bible God allowed what some would call today "satanists" to come to Israel and slaughter them, but only when they were in disobedience. Do you think this is the case with the Palestinians?

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No, I don't believe that to be the case. I'm sure there have been large groups of innocent Israelites dying for the actions of other Israelites but like I said the Most High is the Most Wise so just like kids can't see what's really good or bad for them neither can we when it comes to the more complicated issues. However, that shouldn't stop us from trying to stop the spread of corruption and the dying of innocent people. For all I know perhaps the suffering the Palestinians are going through right now might lead to them being victorious over the money changers in the future.