"Hebrew Israelite" theology discussed...

TokiEl

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If your perfectly legitimate point is to show differences, I think, to expand the idea somewhat, it is well understood that the Quran is at variance with the Old Testament on many key issues, not just "original sin" and the naming of animals. I, personally, see no reason for Muslims to apologize for that.
Also the Quran does not agree with the fact that Jesus Christ was crucified.

Therefore the Quran ought not to be taken seriously as it's just the spurious work of an angel ala Moroni.



For one thing, and it directly relates to the topic of this thread, unlike the Old Testament, the Quran doesn't have God establish the rights of primogeniture, or the rights of the first-born male child, only to then make him seemingly a party to circumventing those laws by the often dodgy "switching of hands," the transferring of the first-born rights to the second-born, which seems to be a sort of leitmotif of the Old Testament. As I read it, in the Quran, for instance, Isaac and Ishmael are treated with equal respect, whereas, in contrast, and leaving Isaac and Ishmael aside for the moment, the authors of the Old Testament not only posit fratricidal -ultimately racial- conflict between Esau and Jacob, but seem also to make God side with the one, the second-born (!), over the other:
God is able to see into the heart and intent of persons. I don't know if it's true but Muslims think or are tought that God cannot see behind walls ?

Sure we can question God as He is portrayed in the Bible but we are after all talking about the Creator of the universe and the Maker of angels man and animals and so i would not push it.


I have never found verses quite like these in the Quran. In fact, the Quran is comparatively free of plots, convolutions, twisting and switching in many respects, and that, as far as I am concerned, is one of its comparative strengths, not weaknesses.
God's book and the Quran are simply not comparable.

One is epic and the other is just a collection of verses.
 

DesertRose

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Regarding the crucifixion from an Islamic point of view.
PS @TokiEl May we follow the truth no matter who proclaims it. Ameen.

"Praise be to Allaah.
There is nothing strange about the Muslims rejecting this idea, because the Qur’aan in which they believe and accept what it tells them definitively states that that did not happen, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And because of their saying (in boast), ‘We killed Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allaah,’ — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them the resemblance of ‘Eesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]”

[al-Nisa’ 4:157]

Rather the problem rests with the Christians for whom the doctrine of the crucifixion and redemption has become a central issue, so much so that the cross is the symbol of their religion.

It is strange that they differ concerning the form of this cross which indicates their confusion about this fabrication.

There are differences between their Gospels and their historians regarding everything that has to do with the story of the crucifixion.

They differ concerning the timing of the Last Supper, which according to them was one of the events in the lead-up to the crucifixion. They differ concerning the traitor who led (the Romans) to Christ – did that happen at least one day before the Last Supper, as narrated by Luke, or during it, after Christ gave him the piece of bread, as narrated by John?

Was Christ the one who carried his cross, as John says, as was customary with one who was going to be crucified, according to Nottingham, or was it Simon of Cyrene, as the other three Gospels state?

They say that two thieves were crucified alongside Christ, one on his right and one on his left, so what was the attitude of these two towards the Messiah who was being crucified, as they claim?

Did the thieves scorn him for being crucified, and say that his Lord had abandoned him and left him to his enemies? Or did only one of them scorn him, and did the other rebuke the one who scorned him?

At what hour did this crucifixion take place – was it in the third hour, as Mark says, or in the sixth as John says?

What happened after the so-called crucifixion?

Mark says that the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom. Matthew adds that the earth shook and rocks crumbled, and many of the saints rose from their graves and entered the holy city, appearing to many. Luke says that the sun turned dark, and the veil of the Temple was torn in the middle, and when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God and said, “Truly this man was righteous.”

But John does not know anything about all that!

These are not the only weak elements and indications of falseness in the story of the crucifixion, as narrated in the gospels. Rather the one who studies the details of the gospel narratives of this story will, with the least effort, notice the great differences in the details of this story, which are such that it is impossible to believe it all or even any part of it!

How desperate are the failed attempts to fill this gap and conceal the faults of this distorted book. Allaah indeed spoke the truth when He said in His Book which He has preserved (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do they not then consider the Qur’aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction”

[al-Nisa’ 4:82]

Apart from the fact that the gospel accounts are not sound, and their authors themselves admit that they were not revealed to the Messiah in this form, nor were they even written during his lifetime, none of the witnesses were present at the events to which they testify, as Mark says:

“Then everyone deserted him and fled.”

Mark 14:50 – New International Version (NIV)

Because these events were not witnessed by anyone who narrated them, there is a great deal of room for imagination and poetic licence.

We will complete our discussion of the fable of the crucifixion of Christ (peace be upon him) by looking at what the Gospels say about the Messiah’s prediction that he would be saved from death:

On one occasion the Pharisees and chief priests sent the guards to arrest him and he said to them:

“I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not find me, and where I am, you cannot come.”

John 7:33-34 – NIV

Elsewhere he says:

“Once more Jesus said to them, ‘I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.’

This made the Jews ask, ‘Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, “Where I go, you cannot come”?’

But he continued, ‘You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.’

‘Who are you?’ they asked.

‘Just what I have been claiming all along,’ Jesus replied. ‘I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.’

They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.

So Jesus said, ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, or I always do what pleases him.’”

John 8:21-29 – NIV

Then at the end he tells them again:

“For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'”

Matthew 23:39 – NIV, also Luke 13:35

The Messiah, as these texts and others show, was certain that God would never hand him over to his enemies, and would never forsake him.

“But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

John 16:32-33

Because of that the passers by, and indeed everyone who attended the so-called crucifixion, mocked the Messiah, as the writer of this Gospel says (although that could not have been true):

“Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads

and saying, ‘You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!’

In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him.

‘He saved others,’ they said, ‘but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.

He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, “I am the Son of God.”’

In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.”

Matthew 27:39-44 – NIV

But it seems that Jesus’ certainty that God was with him began to waver, according to the distorted Gospel narrative, (although that could not have been true):

“Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, ‘Sit here while I go over there and pray.’

He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.

Then he said to them, ‘My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.’

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.’

Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping.


He went away a second time and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.’


When he came back, he again found them sleeping, …

So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, ‘Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners’”

Matthew 26:36-45 – NIV

Luke describes the scene and says:

“And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow.

‘Why are you sleeping?’ he asked them. ‘Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.’”

Luke 22:44-46 – NIV

Because of this mockery of the message of Christ – according to their claims – and because Christ thought that God was with him and would never forsake him, then it follows that the writer who fabricated this dramatic scene would end it with a vision of the despair of the Messiah and his feelings of being abandoned by God – exalted be Allaah far above what the wrongdoers say. The fabricator says:

“From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land.

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?’--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Matthew 27:38-47 – NIV

See also Mark 15:34

If we understand what this story means when subjected to criticism, the same will apply to the doctrine of redemption and sacrifice that is based on it.

With regard to the Christian doctrine of salvation, see also question no. 6

And Allaah is the Source of strength and the guide to the Straight Path, and there is no Lord but He."
source: https://islamqa.info/en/12615
 
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Serveto

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Sure we can question God as He is portrayed in the Bible but we are after all talking about the Creator of the universe and the Maker of angels man and animals and so i would not push it.
You might not, as an apparent Judeo-Christian, but I will push it. I don't think that God and his reputed, designated authors, or biographers, are invariably one and the same. I wasn't raised reading Quran, but I was raised reading the Old and New Testaments, and I refuse to gloss over some things (not that you are asking me to). The Old Testament was presented to me as, among other things, a sort of morality tale, but I, quite frankly, find precious little morality within it, at times, and, not being an Israelite, not even one by adoption, I don't always applaud the supposed heroes, including Jacob also known as Israel.

With that said, and given that most of my friends and even family are comprised of both Christians and Jews, I also want to respect them and not offend their religious, spiritual sensibilities, so I try, not always successfully, mind you, to approach the touchier parts of some of these discussions with as much tact as I can manage. I hope this is one such time.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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@Serveto

I am listening through the OT at the moment with a keen ear on the distinction between Gods approval and the reporting of the actions of the people.

One thing I am struck by is how far from a conventional morality tale the accounts are. The characters have moments of exemplary conduct, rash cruelty, cowardice and bravery. In short, they remind me of the kind of people I know.

It reminds me of the old saying "How odd of God to choose the Jews". Odd indeed, just as odd as to bother with me...
 

TokiEl

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You might not, as an apparent Judeo-Christian, but I will push it. I don't think that God and his reputed, designated authors, or biographers, are one and the same. I wasn't raised reading Quran, but I was raised reading the Old and New Testaments and I refuse to gloss over some things (not that you are asking me to). The Old Testament was presented to me as, among other things, a sort of morality tale, but I, quite frankly, find precious little morality within it, at times, and, not being an Israelite, even one by adoption, I don't always clap for the supposed heroes, including Jacob also known as Israel.
I used to think the same so i know where you're coming from.

To tell you the truth it was somewhat of a shock to me growing up in Northern Europe to come to the conclusion that the Bible is God's book. And how do i know the Bible is true you ask ? Because of all the fulfilled prophecies therein written down long before they came to pass. Besides there are thousands of testimonies from people all over the world who have had an experience with Jesus Christ. He is alive and well and about to come back. God Almighty and the Protector of His book.

So now when i come across something in the Bible which push my buttons the wrong way i simply say i do not understand this. And i am not afraid to admit that i do not always get God and that's alright.
 

Daciple

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You could read the Quran and find out for yourself. Moses is mentioned in the Quran more than any other prophet or person.
I've read the Quran, so if Allah is the God that gave the Law of Moses then why is the post describing Salvation from the Islamic viewpoint above not contain one thing related to Salvation according to the Law of Moses?
 

DesertRose

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I've read the Quran, so if Allah is the God that gave the Law of Moses then why is the post describing Salvation from the Islamic viewpoint above not contain one thing related to Salvation according to the Law of Moses?
Hey Daciple once prophet Eesa Jesus peace be upon Him came it was incumbent on the Jews to follow him and likewise once Prophet Muhammad peace be upon Him came it was incumbent on all to follow him.

"The aayah (interpretation of the meaning), “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85] is a statement that Allaah will not accept any way or deed from anyone, after sending His Final Messenger, except those that are in accordance with the laws of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Prior to this, however, anyone who followed the Prophet of his own time was on the Straight Path of salvation. So the Jews were those who followed Moosa (Moses peace be upon him) and referred to the Tawraat (Torah) for judgement at that time. When Allaah sent ‘Eesa (peace be upon him), the Children of Israel were obliged to follow him and obey him, and so they and others who followed him became Christians.. When Allaah sent Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as the Final Prophet and a Messenger to all the children of Adam, all of mankind was obliged to believe in him and obey him, and refrain from what he prohibited. Those who did so are the true believers. The ummah (nation) of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) are called the believers because of their deep eemaan (faith) and conviction, and because they believe in all the past Prophets and in the prophesied events that are yet to come.”

source: https://islamqa.info/en/2912
 

TokiEl

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God has blood?
Listen to what God says in His book.

Leviticus 17 11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

Atonement is by blood. And since God is not a liar like man so it is... not the blood of brute beasts but the blood of God. So God had to be born as a man with a body of blood to atone once for all sins past present and future. After all God made man and so the Creator took responsibility for all the evil and errors of man and paid the price nontheless so that all who repent of their sins will be forgiven.

God is in the saving business but if you will not repent of your crimes He is a consuming fire.
 

Serveto

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To tell you the truth it was somewhat of a shock to me growing up in Northern Europe to come to the conclusion that the Bible is God's book. And how do i know the Bible is true you ask ? Because of all the fulfilled prophecies therein written down long before they came to pass. Besides there are thousands of testimonies from people all over the world who have had an experience with Jesus Christ. He is alive and well and about to come back. God Almighty and the Protector of His book.
So now when i come across something in the Bible which push my buttons the wrong way i simply say i do not understand this. And i am not afraid to admit that i do not always get God and that's alright.
No arguments there. Also, just so you know, I did edit, erase and re-post and you are quoting the earlier version of my statement. I tried to soften it, and you will find what I hope is a new, at least somewhat improved version above. I am with you on what you are saying here, which is one of many reasons why, though I sometimes subject it to criticism and rigorous historical inquiry, I have never renounced Christianity -in fact, I haven't even come close to that. Sometimes I think I might be sort of wrestling with things, including things presented as "God's word," and that is one part of Jacob's story I always could appreciate: that, by wrestling, through struggle, he was ultimately renamed Israel.
 
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DesertRose

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One thing I am struck by is how far from a conventional morality tale the accounts are. The characters have moments of exemplary conduct, rash cruelty, cowardice and bravery. In short, they remind me of the kind of people I know.
It has probably occurred to you that some unscrupulous people among clergy/scholars may change, delete or distort words in their favor. This happens in all faith groups. For us since the Quran is a recitation (as well) they can not delete it but some attempt to misinterpret and we warn ourselves about these types of scholars..

There are verses that are advice/admonitions for Muslims. They remind us that God's favor is based on our righteousness not our status,wealth, power or lineage these verses remind us that if we cease to be righteous we will be replaced. Here is one:

Sahih International
Quran 47:38
"Here you are those invited to spend in the cause of Allah but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you."

[Qur'an 17:4-8].
"And we decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture, that indeed you would do mischief on the earth twice and you will become tyrants and extremely arrogant! So, when the promise came for the first of the two, We sent against you slaves of Ours given to terrible warfare. They entered the very innermost parts of your homes. And it was a promise (completely) fulfilled. Then We gave you once again, a return of victory over them. And We helped you with wealth and children and made you more numerous in manpower. (And We said): 'If you do well, you do good for your ownselves, and if you do evil (you do it) against yourselves'. Then, when the second promise came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to make your faces sorrowful and to enter the mosque (of Jerusalem) as they had entered it before, and to destroy with utter destruction all that fell in their hands. [And We Said in the Taurat (Torah)]:'It may be that your Lord may show mercy unto you, but if you return (to sins), We shall return (to Our Punishment). And We have made Hell a prison for the disbelievers"
 
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I've read the Quran, so if Allah is the God that gave the Law of Moses then why is the post describing Salvation from the Islamic viewpoint above not contain one thing related to Salvation according to the Law of Moses?
All of God's prophet's delivered the same message. In a nutshell: Make your worship sincere for God Alone and do not worship false gods. Worship includes, among other things, obeying His commands and staying away from what He prohibited. This is the message of salvation. Moses said it. Jesus said it and Muhammad said it. Peace.
 

TokiEl

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Regarding the crucifixion from an Islamic point of view.
PS @TokiEl May we follow the truth no matter who proclaims it. Ameen.

"Praise be to Allaah.
There is nothing strange about the Muslims rejecting this idea, because the Qur’aan in which they believe and accept what it tells them definitively states that that did not happen, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And because of their saying (in boast), ‘We killed Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allaah,’ — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them the resemblance of ‘Eesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]”

[al-Nisa’ 4:157]

Rather the problem rests with the Christians for whom the doctrine of the crucifixion and redemption has become a central issue, so much so that the cross is the symbol of their religion.

It is not possible to doubt the crucifixion of Jesus Christ as both the Roman historian Tacitus and the Jewish historian Josephus wrote about it.


"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind." - Tacitus in Annals (written ca. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44.


"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared." - Flavius Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 3, 3






They differ concerning the timing of the Last Supper, which according to them was one of the events in the lead-up to the crucifixion. They differ concerning the traitor who led (the Romans) to Christ – did that happen at least one day before the Last Supper, as narrated by Luke, or during it, after Christ gave him the piece of bread, as narrated by John?
The last supper was in the evening Thursday and the night was spent in prayer in Gethsemane until Judas betrayed Him. And early Friday at the sixth hour (Roman reckoning - 6am) He was with Pilate in front of the crowd and at the third hour (Jewish reckoning -9am) He was on the cross which He carried in the beginning but because He was badly beaten and emancipated Simon of Cyrene helped Him with it. And at the sixth hour (Jewish reckoning -noon) it became dark until the ninth hour (Jewish reckoning -3pm) when He exhaled.

You see the gospel writers do not write the same thing all the time as what would be the point of four writers then ? It would suffice with only one.
 
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TokiEl

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"The aayah (interpretation of the meaning), “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85] is a statement that Allaah will not accept any way or deed from anyone, after sending His Final Messenger, except those that are in accordance with the laws of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
It is difficult to doubt a religion which we have been born into.

Nevertheless the Bible proves itself by all the fulfilled prophecies therein while where is the proof of the truthfulness of the Quran ?

Also why is it that Islam is incapable of conquering Israel ?
 

DesertRose

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Also why is it that Islam is incapable of conquering Israel ?
Hold your horses life is not over. The end is for the believers.
There is a group that will be upon the truth until Prophet Jesus peace be upon him descends and confronts the antiChrist.

Hadith No: 10
Narrated/Authority of Thawban
that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "A group among my Ummah will continue to follow the truth and prevail, and those who oppose them will not be able to harm them, until the command of Allah comes to pass." (Sahih)

It is difficult to doubt a religion which we have been born into.
The Quran addresses this argument:

Quran 2: 170-171
And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?

The more you encounter the Quran without prejudice the more you will be convinced after pondering. The Quran is a miracle from the Creator for those who deal with it from a place of humility. If one has an pride or arrogance whilst reading it they will reject it without proper investigation or from of a place of ego or arrogance.

"Rational evidence
There are many Islamic texts that address reason and direct people to examine the rational proof and evidence, and call upon people of sound reasoning and mature thinking to examine the definitive evidence for the soundness of Islam."


Quran: [Saad 38:29].
Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):
“(This is) a Book (the Qur’an) which We have sent down to you, full of blessings that they may ponder over its Verses, and that men of understanding may remember”
[Saad 38:29]
.

Al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad said concerning the miraculous aspects of the Qur’an:
In it you will see that there is an explanation of a set of divine laws; it mentions the way of proof based on reason, presents arguments against the misguided followers of different religions and sects, and argues against them on the basis of strong and clear proof, using very easy and concise language. Those who pretend to be clever tried to come up with proof and evidence like that, but they were not able to do so.
End quote from ash-Shifa (1/390)

The texts of the revelation do not contain anything that is impossible according to rational thinking or that would be rejected by reason, and the texts never presented an argument that contradicts reason or contradicts any analogy based on rational thinking. Rather the proponents of falsehood never presented any analogy to support their falsehood but the Qur’an refuted it on the basis of truth and an argument that is based on clear reason.

Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And no example or similitude do they bring (to oppose or to find fault in you or in this Qur’an), but We reveal to you the truth (against that similitude or example), and the better explanation thereof”
[al-Furqaan 25:33]
.
source: https://islamqa.info/en/175339


Islam always gives us logical and practical explanations for example Jesus peace be upon Him being a messenger sent by God to the people of Israel. God gave him some miracles, as he did give to all other prophets before and after him.
It is a practical book that centers on our individual guidance and ethical responsibilities. If we are believers the unrepentant and major sinner and the the one with minor sins do not have equal merit simply because they are under grace. Nor can their sins be transferred to an innocent Prophet Jesus peace be upon him. Moreover, Islam upholds communal ethics because believers have to believe and practice good deeds.
Another example, regards the Creator who is Ever Living and cannot die hence God in Islam can not be dead nor can he be buried.These are just a few examples from a book that was brought for our guidance. Nor can he be given birth to which places Him in a place of need and we know that we need the Creator and that God is in need of nothing. etc.....
 
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It is not possible to doubt the crucifixion of Jesus Christ as both the Roman historian Tacitus and the Jewish historian Josephus wrote about it.


"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind." - Tacitus in Annals (written ca. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44.


"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared." - Flavius Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 3, 3








The last supper was in the evening Thursday and the night was spent in prayer in Gethsemane until Judas betrayed Him. And early Friday at the sixth hour (Roman reckoning - 6am) He was with Pilate in front of the crowd and at the third hour (Jewish reckoning -9am) He was on the cross which He carried in the beginning but because He was badly beaten and emancipated Simon of Cyrene helped Him with it. And at the sixth hour (Jewish reckoning -noon) it became dark until the ninth hour (Jewish reckoning -3pm) when He exhaled.

You see the gospel writers do not write the same thing all the time as what would be the point of four writers then ? It would suffice with only one.

Indeed...the crucifixion of Christ Jesus of Nazareth is historically well-documented throughout even secular writings.

This is one of the reasons I first began looking into the Bible, back when I was an atheist.
 

DesertRose

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Indeed...the crucifixion of Christ Jesus of Nazareth is historically well-documented throughout even secular writings.
Hey Claire, it appeared to those who were there that prophet Jesus was crucified but he was raised up and will be sent down to complete his mission..

“When Allah said: O Jesus! I will complete you(r term)

and cause you to ascend unto Me

and cleanse you of those who disbelieve...”

" Allah assures that Jesus will be saved from the Jews and that his term and what is destined for him is guaranteed for him and that Allah will cause Jesus to ascend unto Him. The Bible agrees that Jesus ascended unto heaven (Luke 24:51), but the main dispute is about what happened in between: the alleged crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus (pbuh).

Allah says in Qur'an that they neither killed him nor crucified him, but it was made to appear so unto them. In many places in Qur'an, it has been mentioned that Jews used to kill the prophets unjustly. But in the case of Jesus (pbuh) it vehemently denies that they killed him or that they crucified him. This is because Qur'an will not contain anything except truth.

Surah 4, Verses 157 & 158:

“and their saying : we killed Christ Jesus, son of Mary, The messenger of Allah - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so; and those who disagree concerning it are full of doubts; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; For surely they killed him not; but Allah took him up unto Himself; and Allah is ever mighty, wise.”

From the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), we get a more detailed account. The Muslim belief is that Allah changed the face of the person who betrayed Jesus, showing to the rulers the place where he was hiding, into a face resembling Jesus. So, they crucified that betrayer instead of Jesus."
for more on this topic:


http://www.missionislam.com/comprel/jesuscrucified.htm
 
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TokiEl

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Allah says in Qur'an that they neither killed him nor crucified him, but it was made to appear so unto them. In many places in Qur'an, it has been mentioned that Jews used to kill the prophets unjustly. But in the case of Jesus (pbuh) it vehemently denies that they killed him or that they crucified him. This is because Qur'an will not contain anything except truth.

Surah 4, Verses 157 & 158:

“and their saying : we killed Christ Jesus, son of Mary, The messenger of Allah - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so; and those who disagree concerning it are full of doubts; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; For surely they killed him not; but Allah took him up unto Himself; and Allah is ever mighty, wise.”

From the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), we get a more detailed account. The Muslim belief is that Allah changed the face of the person who betrayed Jesus, showing to the rulers the place where he was hiding, into a face resembling Jesus. So, they crucified that betrayer instead of Jesus."
for more on this topic:


http://www.missionislam.com/comprel/jesuscrucified.htm

Allah changed the face of Judas into the face of Jesus and so it was Judas and not Jesus who was crucified ?

But that is absolutely absurd. Where is the reason and logic of Islam on this point ?



Matthew 16 21"From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. “Far be it from You, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to You!”

23But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”

24Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. 25For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?"
 

DesertRose

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Allah changed the face of Judas into the face of Jesus and so it was Judas and not Jesus who was crucified ?
But that is absolutely absurd. Where is the reason and logic of Islam on this point ?
Having logical and just beliefs about who the Creator is or how salvation is achieved are different and necessary points in a belief system.This particular occurrence is a miracle.
If you are interested in a more comprehensive understanding or want to engage in comparative religion here are some resources:
https://islamqa.info/en/sendq
http://www.quranspeaks.com/contact/
mifo@missionislam.com
 
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