"Hebrew Israelite" theology discussed...

[Claire Rousseau]

Well....if it didn't matter so much, why did they paint him the way they did? Then go on to conquer and taint the real gospel with heresies and lies?

Because that’s what the RCC does....lie, taint the Gospel & conquer those who get in their way. Catholicism is NOT Christian
HI's focus so much on it because for them,

it's a big deal. You mean all this time, we're related to Christ? This is why we were enslaved? The history goes so much deeper than I can go into right now.

But WHY is it a big deal —-Would they reject Jesus if they thought He was NOT black?

We all come from the same 2 original people, Adam & Eve, that is what the Bible says.

I do not know why Blacks were enslaved. I have never owned a slave so I cannot personally testify what was going through their mind that would make slavetraders think it is ok to kidnap & enslave another human being, or why nobody stopped it, just as I do not know why today, little children are being kidnapped & sold into sex slavery, or why we are all aware of it yet haven’t done anything to stop it. TPTB are evil beyond what our minds can comprehend. Indeed, It’s wrong that blacks were enslaved.
What can we do about it now?



You've never been in the place of such a downtrodded people, and made to forget who you were. Stripped of your very essence...so I understand why you wouldn't care. Forget about all historical context, if that's all you feel you must do at this point in your life. Maybe it's not meant for you to understand or ever believe.

With all due respect, You don’t know anything about me, my life experiences or anything I’ve had to go through. Just because I’m not black does not mean I don’t know the bitter sting of racism.
While I acknowledge that blacks have had the shortest end of the stick in terms of racism, Being biracial is no picnic either. EVERY “colored” race gets crapped on by the whites (no offense, whites), and Japanese are certainly no exception.
I actually DO know what it’s like to be a minority, feeling like you don’t fit in, like people are talking smack about the “Jap” in the room, pretending not to notice when you walk by & some stupid jerk stretches back his eyelids to mock you & everyone is laughing at you & you just want to disappear.
You think I don’t know what it’s like to look in the mirror & hate my eye shape, my cheekbones & lips, or to wish I was born with pretty blonde hair & round, big blue eyes & cry myself to sleep when I was a kid because I felt cursed with darker skin & how life would be so much easier if I looked more European? I do.
And do you think Asians are exempt from hair problems, or that I haven’t wasted an entire day going from salon to salon just to see all the white hairdressers face drop when I walk in or they all run hiding in the back & being turned away because they “don’t do ethnic hair”? Yeah, my hair is what we Asians call “bamboo hair”....ultra-coarse, thick, heavy, stick -straight, stubborn & wouldn’t hold a curl to save my life. And when I finally find someone willing to cut my hair, I ALWAYS get charged extra, because my coarse hair “dulls” the person’s shears.
I can’t use the shampoo& conditioner at hotels b/c it’s for Euro hair & it’s too watery so I have to use black hair products, & you know how tiny that section is among the sea of Euro hair products that comes in a million scents I cannot use.
And yes, I got “the talk” when I was growing up, too. You probably know what I mean. The talk. In 2nd grade my Mom saw me crying in my room after school & asked me what was wrong. I told her about the boy that sat behind me calling me a “dumb chink”, telling me to go back to China (amazing how people just assume that Asians are all Chinese), even though I was BORN in the USA.
She explained that I would hear many different derogatory comments & called bad names, but that I had to be very strong & not let those bad things bother me, because there was nothing at all wrong w/me but that some people will not accept me because we look & sound different than most people & that some white people will treat me unfairly.
I knew she was right, because I had already experienced it, & it left me hurt & confused because I was nice to them & tried to make friends w/some of my classmates & many of the whites were rude no matter how nice I was to them. My mom nodded in understanding.
So I asked her, when will it end?

She looked very sad, tears sprang into her eyes & she took a deep breath, sighed and looked me in the eyes & said, “Never”.

That was hard to hear at such a young age, but I am glad she told me, because it’s true.

Also, When people find out you’re Japanese, at least here in America, they can get salty because of Pearl Harbor (which, by the way, was TOTALLY whitewashed to demonize the Japanese because Japan refused to take part in WW2–it was a false flag retaliation by that marionette Roosevelt & His AshkeNAZI Jew
Synagogue of Death. They even my pregnant grandaunt & her husband out of their tiny dress shop in California (after they pledged allegiance to the USA, forsaking their Japanese citizenship to live the “American Dream”, froze their bank accounts overnight, forcing them out of the store that they invested everything they had to open, making sure to destroy everything in their store & marched them onto a MP police vehicle to load them on a bus to a concentration camp, battered my grandaunt to the point that my 1st cousin(once removed) was born prematurely in the camp in SoCal, where my grandaunt died from septic shock. Once my cousin was 2 yrs old, and still petite from being premature, American soldiers would r*pe her while my widowed granduncle was performing forced labor for 18 hrs a day. Thank God she survived, but she was so brutally destroyed from the raping that after they were released she had to have pelvic reconstruction surgery which left her barren.
When they tried to build a life together after this traumatic ordeal, they were ostracized by whites, who now HATED & blamed innocent Japanese US CITIZENS for crimes they didn’t commit (think of post-9/11 national hatred of Muslims/Arabs x100). They saw signs like this plastered everywhere:
(See image attachment)

And you're right, the bible doesn't promote racism. Even the bible tells the Israelite "thou shalt not abhor an Edomite", just like it tells everyone else "thou shalt not commit adultery", yet, some people fall to that sin.

Do you condemn ALL believing HI's for the sin of some? Do you condemn ALL pastors for the sin that some fall to?

No, I do not. I want them to be saved.


Pray that they come to the knowledge of the truth. Some people are really out there trying.

I do pray for them. And I do know people are trying...




Also when God say he regards the heart..he was saying that because of David's size/age, they didn't think much of him. All throughout the bible God speaks of how he uses the simple to prove the wise, how he uses those are that regarded as nothing for his purpose. That verse meant nothing about skin color. Does God love everyone? Yes, if you aren't wicked. God hates wickedness.

I mean, who even created different nations and set the lines between them? God. Who actually chose a people for himself? God.

Now ask yourself why he did that. And it wasn't to bring glory to themselves.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

My comment above: Expand quote....my comments are in purple.

 

[Yahda]

@Yahda, @KoncreteMind (again) and others ...

Another question, if I may. If the so called Old Testament is, as I read them, essentially a series of books of, for, by and about Israelites, does any of it, apart from being somewhat interesting, apply to me, an unapologetic Anglo/Saxon/Germanic? I mean, if I don't identify as Christian and am thus not claiming, whether rightly or wrongly is at this point inconsequential, to be "engrafted" onto the Israelite branch, or tree, and, furthermore, if I do not consciously oppose, or, worse still, hold hatred toward Israelites, is there anything of value in your scriptures for me?

What, if anything, is my relationship to Israel? In religious terms, should I just stay with my own tribal deities, Odin and Thor, for instance, and listen to Wardruna, or, perhaps, the decidedly Germanic Wagner's Parcifal (please, noooo) instead of King David's Psalms ?

Even in the NT Jesus and the apostles were sent only to the Lost tribe of Israel. Those are the gentiles it speaks of. So even in its own “write” the grafted in ideologies make no sense as far as Christianity goes. I just wanted to quickly touch on that again. Moving on.

It’s your choice. I genuinely love my Creator, and understand that His way is perfect and righteous. I set out from an early age to know, seek, and understanding His way. It’s in my soul.

I said that to say, if you feel your heart is stirring you towards the true God, and you are genuinely beginning to FEAR the worst things that could happen, or simply contemplating a life of perfectness and righteousness through Him.....seek the way that was laid out for Israel.

And I think that’s what’s it’s all about. It’s up to us to choose. With your heart, mind, and soul. It’s that simple.

He provided a way for everyone, but it starts with what was laid down to Moses. His Laws, judgments, statues, and regulations.

 

[Serveto]

Even in the NT Jesus and the apostles were sent only to the Lost tribe of Israel. Those are the gentiles it speaks of. So even in its own “write” the grafted in ideologies make no sense as far as Christianity goes. I just wanted to quickly touch on that again. Moving on.

It’s your choice. I genuinely love my Creator, and understand that His way is perfect and righteous. I set out from an early age to know, seek, and understanding His way. It’s in my soul.

I said that to say, if you feel your heart is stirring you towards the true God, and you are genuinely beginning to FEAR the worst things that could happen, or simply contemplating a life of perfectness and righteousness through Him.....seek the way that was laid out for Israel.

And I think that’s what’s it’s all about. It’s up to us to choose. With your heart, mind, and soul. It’s that simple.

He provided a way for everyone, but it starts with what was laid down to Moses. His Laws, judgments, statues, and regulations.

Thanks. Your perspective is inclusive. To better understand it, I should have listened to you more closely from the start, even on the last board, and I publicly apologize if I seemed heavy-handed there. Sometimes, in discussions of this type, the irrepressible tribalist (not racist) in me comes forward, but I try, not always successfully, clearly, to keep him under control.

 

[Yahda]

Thanks. Your perspective is inclusive. I should have listened to you more closely from the start, even on the last board, and I publicly apologize if I seemed heavy-handed there. Sometimes, in discussions of this type, the irrepressible tribalist in me comes forward, but I try, not always successfully, clearly, to keep him under control .

No need to apologize. I know I come across as pretty aggressive myself. I’ve been working on my approach for some time now and I’m still not there yet. I think it’s easy to distinguish who’s passionate in what they believe verses those who troll and have different types of agendas. We won’t all agree, discussions and debates get heated sometimes but I’m looking more at the character presented of the poster, it’s content, and perhaps motives.

So even through my bad grammar, and my aggressiveness....I would hope that most readers can see that I am coming from a good place, and that I actually study, pray, seek, and provide as many scriptures, and precepts as I can to support what it is I am saying.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Yes and so it was very important that the Jews rejected the Messiah.

Luckily for the gentiles the Jews are a stubborn stiffnecked people.

You do know that salvation has ALWAYS been by grace through faith, right?

Even in the OT.

Also, modern Judaism is the most wicked religion there is...it is the same religion that was called Baal worship in the OT.

 

[Serveto]

Once my cousin was 2 yrs old, and still petite from being premature, American soldiers would r*pe her while my widowed granduncle was performing forced labor for 18 hrs a day. Thank God she survived, but she was so brutally destroyed from the raping that after they were released she had to have pelvic reconstruction surgery which left her barren.

Wow! That's horrific! Were the criminals ever brought to trial or courts martial?

 

[KoncreteMind]

@Yahda, @KoncreteMind (again) and others ...

Another question, if I may. If the so called Old Testament is, as I read them, essentially a series of books of, for, by and about Israelites, does any of it, apart from being somewhat interesting, apply to me, an Anglo/Saxon/Germanic? I mean, if I don't identify as Christian and am thus not claiming, whether rightly or wrongly is at this point inconsequential, to be "engrafted" onto the Israelite branch, or tree, and, furthermore, if I do not consciously oppose, or, worse still, hold hatred toward Israelites, is there anything of value in your scriptures for me?

What, if anything, is my relationship to Israel? In religious terms, should I just stay with my own tribal deities, Odin and Thor, for instance, and listen to Wardruna, or, perhaps, the decidedly Germanic Wagner's Parcifal (please, noooo) instead of King David's Psalms ?

There has always been a place for non Israelites in the Israelite way of life. Starting from their exodus out of Egypt

Exodus 12:37
The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Sukkoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. 38 Many other people went up with them, and also large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds

So even in the beginning there were gentiles traveling with the Israelites. And for salvation they were to obey the same thing Israel was

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies both to the Israelite and to the foreigner residing among you.”

Isaiah 56
3 Let no foreigner who is bound to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.”


6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord
to minister to him,
to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Sovereign Lord declares—
he who gathers the exiles of Israel:
“I will gather still others to them
besides those already gathered.”

Thats the OTs idea of grafting. The NTs version is essentially replacement theology where the promise made to Abraham and his descendants now apply to everyone else but Israel (if they try to continue in the same way that moses set forth). I think that's why Jesus said (allegedly) you can't put new wine in old wine skins

 

[TokiEl]

You do know that salvation has ALWAYS been by grace through faith, right?

Even in the OT.

Also, modern Judaism is the most wicked religion there is...it is the same religion that was called Baal worship in the OT.

Only by God's atoning blood is salvation possible.

Since you cannot see that blood you must accept it in faith.

 

[TokiEl]

So what would have happened to gentiles if Jews accepted Jesus as their messiah ?

Israel would have ministered to the world and brought everyone back to God.

Absolutely not !

There is no salvation without the spilling of God's blood.

 

[rainerann]

@Yahda, @KoncreteMind and others ...

Just out of curiosity, and not because I take a convinced position on the matter, I wonder how y'all interpret this prophecy from Deuteronomy:

"The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."
(Deut 18:15-18)​

Some Christians and Muslims have been notoriously playing tug-of-war for 1,400 (+/-) years, claiming that it refers to Jesus and Muhammad respectively, but I understand that Judaism, and, I presume, various forms of HI(ism) vote "none of the above." My question, then, is this: has this prophecy been fulfilled, and, if so, by whom and when?

This verse is intended as part of the Old Covenant. Initially, in the book of Exodus, God wants to speak with the people directly. This is the original plan for when the people return to the land of Israel. However, this scares them, so what this verse is describing is that they will be led by a prophet in place of being in the presence of God. This manifests through the book of Judges in many prophets experiences a call like Moses including Gideon, Samson followed by Samuel as well because a prophet was to lead the people for as long as the law of Moses remained as a covenant between God and His people. .

The Muslims use this verse to indicate that Muhammad can be called according to this verse because he could be called a son of Abraham. However, this was never a directive for a final prophet. There is no finality to be assumed from this verse.

I have never heard Christians using this verse to refer to Jesus but assuming that there is an argument toward this effect, the connection would be the same. It would merely be suggesting that Jesus qualifies for the role of the Son of God because He was a son of Abraham. There is, however, no finality to be assumed within this verse in favor of the ministry of Christ either. In both cases, it would merely be a familial connection in relation to this verse.

The reality that this tradition has not continued is a separate issue that is not addressed by this verse. This is one of the reasons why I have never heard this verse associated with Christ because explaining why the role of the prophet does not continue according to Christianity is not explained by this verse. It is explained by the prophet Isaiah in particular, who describes the Messiah more than most of the other prophets.

The Messiah and consequently, the New Covenant, are why the prophethood does not continue after Christ. Therefore, this would also apply to the claim that Mohammad is the "final" prophet as well. This verse never defines that there will be a final prophet. The prophecy of the Messiah indicates that the prophethood will come to an end when Israel is given a New Covenant, but that is not what Muslims are trying to defend. They are not trying to say that this validates a "final" prophet. They are trying to validate Muhammad as a prophet by assuming that he has a familial connection that this verse suggests is a requirement to be a prophet.

Therein, lies the mystery for those who say none of the above. Where did the prophethood go? At this point, you would either have to assume that there was never such a thing as a prophet, that God is not speaking with His people because of disobedience, or that the Messiah has come because this verse suggests that the prophethood will not come to an end. There should still be a prophet according to what this verse is saying.

 

[rainerann]

Just as an fyi, and not because I want to enter or perpetuate the controversy, I think they base it on this, Acts 3:22, and subsequent, related verses.

Right, Acts 3:22-26 is clearly referring to the familial connection and not suggesting that the verse is implying that verse in Deuteronomy is a prophecy to be fulfilled. There is no finality to be assumed from this verse from Deuteronomy. Therefore, this was never a prophecy that would ever be considered fulfilled when it was given. It just identifies that a prophet would be a blood relative of Abraham.

So if Jesus is not the Messiah, then this instruction should continue. The verse describes what could be compared to a continuous loop that iterates for as long as the Covenant is active.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Wow! That's horrific! Were the criminals ever brought to trial or courts martial?

To the best of my knowledge, none were brought to justice. But they must face God.

 

[Serveto]

To the best of my knowledge, none were brought to justice. But they must face God.

I agree! That is heart-wrenching. The crimes of the past century, the sacrifices to Moloch and Mars, are in many cases unspeakable, and they continue into this one. Look, for example, at the cities of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, but we won't go there, it's too off topic. Needless to say, I am sorry to hear about your cousin.

Right, Acts 3:22-26 is clearly referring to the familial connection and not suggesting that the verse is implying that verse in Deuteronomy is a prophecy to be fulfilled.

If you want more evidence that some Christians and Muslims have been playing tug-of-war, with Christians claiming the prophecy as applicable to, and, yes, as having been fulfilled by Jesus, I refer you to the loud, old married couple who express their love for one another through constant online bickering, "Answering Islam" and "Answering Christianity."

 

[Claire Rousseau]

@Yahda, @KoncreteMind and others ...

Just out of curiosity, and not because I take a convinced position on the matter, I wonder how y'all interpret this prophecy from Deuteronomy:

"The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."​

(Deut 18:15-18)​

Some Christians and Muslims have been notoriously playing tug-of-war for 1,400 (+/-) years, claiming that it refers to Jesus and Muhammad respectively, but I understand that Judaism, and, I presume, various forms of HI(ism) vote "none of the above." My question, then, is this: has this prophecy been fulfilled, and, if so, by whom and when?

There are hundreds of prophecies of Jesus Christ, beginning in the garden of Eden.

He fulfilled them all.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

I agree! That is heart-wrenching. The crimes of the past century, the sacrifices to Moloch and Mars, are in many cases unspeakable, and they continue into this one. Look, for example, at the cities of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, but we won't go there, it's too off topic. Needless to say, I am sorry to hear about your cousin.

If you want more evidence that some Christians and Muslims have been playing tug-of-war, with Christians claiming the prophecy as applicable to, and, yes, as having been fulfilled in Jesus, I refer you to the loud, old married couple who express their love for one another through constant online bickering, "Answering Islam" and "Answering Christianity."

Thanks.

I have to admit, to be fair, Japan is guilty of some wicked things, as well. Especially during the Korean War.

To this day the Koreans hate the Japanese, and I cannot say that I blame them.

I think God has judged Japan, as the Japanese are dying off & there are more elderly people there than youth.
People there just aren’t having children, so the population is stagnant and no longer regenerating.

It pains me to say this, because I am a natural born US citizen, but I think this country is the spiritual Babylon of the end times.

We stole this land through genocide of Native Americans, then built up this country on the backs of enslaved Africans, and now our government is setting up military bases in countries across the world to bring “democracy” to other nations?

Why?

What if they don’t WANT it? Who are we to tell other countries how to live?

I don’t understand why we can’t just live & let live.

I think we , as citizens, need to think long & hard about what our government is doing & what our foreign policy entails.

The idea of American exceptionalism is wicked & inhumane.

I do not want to benefit from the suffering of another, and if we don’t take back control of our government, God will bring His judgment upon us.

 

[grateful servant]

There are hundreds of prophecies of Jesus Christ, beginning in the garden of Eden.

He fulfilled them all.

Almighty God tells us in the Qur'an that the unlettered prophet Muhammad was foretold of in the earlier scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Almighty God said:

Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.​

I don't doubt that there are prophecies in the OT about the coming of Jesus Christ, but there are many more about the coming of Prophet Muhammad, they have just been misinterpreted and their meanings distorted by the Jews and Christians who denied him. May God give you correct guidance, Amin.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

@Yahda, @KoncreteMind (again) and others ...

Another question, if I may. If the so called Old Testament is, as I read them, essentially a series of books of, for, by and about Israelites, does any of it, apart from being somewhat interesting, apply to me, an Anglo/Saxon/Germanic? I mean, if I don't identify as Christian and am thus not claiming, whether rightly or wrongly is at this point inconsequential, to be "engrafted" onto the Israelite branch, or tree, and, furthermore, if I do not consciously oppose, or, worse still, hold hatred toward Israelites, is there anything of value in your scriptures for me?

What, if anything, is my relationship to Israel? In religious terms, should I just stay with my own tribal deities, Odin and Thor, for instance, and listen to Wardruna, or, perhaps, the decidedly Germanic Wagner's Parcifal (please, noooo) instead of King David's Psalms ?

It doesn’t matter if you are Anglo, or not..,you were still created by God, He wrote His law upon your heart, you have broken it through sin(you’re not alone...we all have) which has placed a rift between you & God, and the only way to get over the chasm that your sin created is through believing on Jesus Christ as your bridge.

You cannot see the bridge, you just have to trust that it is there, and take a leap of faith.

That can be scary, but I promise you, Once you take that leap and believe, that bridge WILL appear and you will hit the ground/bridge running back to God.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Almighty God tells us in the Qur'an that the unlettered prophet Muhammad was foretold of in the earlier scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Almighty God said:

​

Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.​

I don't doubt that there are prophecies in the OT about the coming of Jesus Christ, but there are many more about the coming of Prophet Muhammad, they have just been misinterpreted and their meanings distorted by the Jews and Christians who denied him. May God give you correct guidance, Amin.

Can Muhammad save you from your sins?

 

[grateful servant]

Can Muhammad save you from your sins?

Only God is our salvation Claire, but if you read the verse I quoted you would see that following Muhammad and the Guidance he was sent with (Quran and Sunnah) leads to salvation and the ultimate success - Eternal happiness with Almighty God!

Anyways, I didn't post to debate with you Claire, I'm just adding the Muslim's perspective. Peace.