No regard...for the desire of women

[rainerann]

"But...but... it's not a fair comparison". Don't put out ideas that have logical ramifications when worked out that you might not like.

hmm, yet you completely avoided the questions. Don't like the logical ramifications of answering them I see.

 

[justjess]

Tell that to the marketing industry and porn industry. I don't know what your other comment has to do with anything either. I was commenting on the frequency that you seem to comment on things I have said without quoting me for saying them, which is fine. In general, I had said before a long time ago that I know you don't like most of what I believe in or say. That was already present to begin with. This is just really just the usual disagreement we have always had Jess. It has nothing to do with anyone else.

Nevertheless, the slogan "sex sell" seems to contradict what you are saying about the benign nature of showing someone's breasts.

In additions to this, individuals also have the right to create boundaries without creating the requirement to make women being topless illegal. That is what I have already explained. Individual rights remove the need to create laws for preferences like being topless or not being topless. I should also have the right to say that someone should wear a shirt in my own home, on my property, and to some degree in public places that I share with other people. Having this right removes the need to create a bunch of laws.

Tell that to the africans, europeans, south and central americans.. who disagree with you.

 

[Kung Fu]

hmm, yet you completely avoided the questions. Don't like the logical ramifications of answering them I see.

You question was irrelevant because it had nothing to do with the idea of following your logic through to its fullest. I thought that would have been obvious but then I forgot it was you.

 

[rainerann]

Tell that to the africans, europeans, south and central americans.. who disagree with you.

So when are you planning the next family vacation to a topless beach? What do you think of when your husband sees another woman's breasts? Would you prefer to have the individual right to say that another woman couldn't be topless in your own home with your family or would you be okay with it being illegal to say that you cannot tell someone to wear a shirt in your own home? They can just come in your home and take off their shirt and bra and sit on your couch in front of your husband. Totally okay.

Does your husband like having the individual right to say that other men can't just come over to your house and take their shirts off?

This is what I have been defending. Never one time did I say that women being topless should be illegal. I just explained why it is different because it is even in Africa, Europe, South and Central America.

So while you are using this as examples of people being topless, this does not prove that people do not consider the sexual nature of being topless.

In South and Central America, I think you're pushing the comparison a little bit as well. Modern culture doesn't actually walk around bare breasted the way native cultures would have. It is also very hot in the places that you are describing and native cultures had little access to material to make clothes with in general. That doesn't mean that people didn't recognize the sexual nature of seeing someone's breasts. The role of a mother becomes a priority in native cultures like this in order to define this sexual part of the body as something intended to feed a baby. A cultural way to control damaging sexual consequences created by promiscuity and lust when there is little to no access to clothes.

However, modern cultures in these areas do cover their breasts and European cultures do have nude beaches because of the way they view sexuality because breasts are a sexual part of the body. Not wearing a top is intentional to experience sexuality in a different way because people are more often naked when they are having sex.

And, again, I am defending having individual rights to say that you cannot be topless in my home, business or in some shared public space. I do not wish to make it illegal for you to be topless in your backyard, on your camping trip in the woods, etc.

 

[rainerann]

You question was irrelevant because it had nothing to do with the idea of following your logic through to its fullest. I thought that would have been obvious but then I forgot it was you.

You mean my point about there being a law making it illegal to be topless and a law making it illegal to wear a tshirt? Because you don't think there is a difference between these two things?

There is a difference, but I don't think it should be illegal for a woman to be topless, so I am not seeing how you are making a great counter-argument...

 

[Kung Fu]

You mean my point about there being a law making it illegal to be topless and a law making it illegal to wear a tshirt? Because you don't think there is a difference between these two things?

There is a difference, but I don't think it should be illegal for a woman to be topless, so I am not seeing how you are making a great counter-argument...

What happened can't follow your logic fully through? Please don't waste my time and tell us it was an invalid comparison when it was your logic that would bring about that which you don't want.

If you want to have a real conversation bring something of substance and not "but..but.. it's not a fair comparison".

 

[justjess]

There are entirely different cultural norms regarding bare female breasts depending on where u are jn the world, your assertion that breasts are actually hypersexualized EVERYWHERE is baseless. Being hot isnt some sort of excuse.. it gets damn hot in the summer where i live too. All beaches in much of europe, south and central america are topless beaches - nude beaches are a different story. Ive been to other countries and i was the weird one in a bikini top. Its a prudish attitude towards breasts period. They are a source of food and some men have bigger ones then women anyway. Its not illegal in even some states for women to be topless in public, it isnt illegal in nyc atleast. U could walk down the street naked from tge waist up if u want to.

With that said people should be able to dress or undress however they want. Culturally different thibgs are acceptable to different groups. If culturally modesty is a thing for muslims, even tents then thats their business. Just like its orthodox jews business to make their women wear wigs and cover to their ankles, nuns business to wear a habit, amish business to wear those hideous dresses and weird beards etc.

Its not mine or yours or lisas business at all.

 

[rainerann]

What happened can't follow your logic fully through? Please don't waste my time and tell us it was an invalid comparison when it was your logic that would bring about that which you don't want.

If you want to have a real conversation bring something of substance and not "but..but.. it's not a fair comparison".

Well, don't waste my time with comparisons that aren't legitimate. Maybe find a fair comparsion and we can have a real conversation. F

From what I can see, the European beaches offers the most support. However, if I were to go to a European beach, I would not have to walk around without a bikini top by law. So, even then, this doesn't offer a legitimate comparison.

If I have the right to wear a bikini top on a nude beach in Europe. If I also have the right to go to a beach where people are nude. If I have no complaint for either reality and in none of these circumstances is there any law requiring me to be topless or not topless; then this is not a fair comparison to a complaint made about how in countries where Islamic government has become dominant, a law is created preventing women from wearing t-shirts.

You want it to be a place where I will be caught in a contradiction, but all you have done is avoid questions to make something appear to be true that is actually false. Your counter-arguments always consist of judging the level of intelligence of the person you are talking to because you have no real counter-argument to offer.

 

[rainerann]

There are entirely different cultural norms regarding bare female breasts depending on where u are jn the world, your assertion that breasts are actually hypersexualized EVERYWHERE is baseless. Being hot isnt some sort of excuse.. it gets damn hot in the summer where i live too. All beaches in much of europe, south and central america are topless beaches - nude beaches are a different story. Ive been to other countries and i was the weird one in a bikini top. Its a prudish attitude towards breasts period. They are a source of food and some men have bigger ones then women anyway. Its not illegal in even some states for women to be topless in public, it isnt illegal in nyc atleast. U could walk down the street naked from tge waist up if u want to.

With that said people should be able to dress or undress however they want. Culturally different thibgs are acceptable to different groups. If culturally modesty is a thing for muslims, even tents then thats their business. Just like its orthodox jews business to make their women wear wigs and cover to their ankles, nuns business to wear a habit, amish business to wear those hideous dresses and weird beards etc.

Its not mine or yours or lisas business at all.

Right, but the issue is that by law you cannot wear a tshirt. This is the difference that no one is admitting for whatever reason. Why can't you just admit that there should not be a law requiring women to wear a veil?

I really don't object to not having a law making it illegal to be topless if you are a woman. I don't see why this should bother me. All I need is the right to say that you have to wear a shirt in my house. Even having a beach in the US where people wanted to be nude doesn't bother me because I am not required by law to go to that beach.

I don't know how it is so hard to understand the difference. No one is complaining about a sense of modesty. There is a complaint towards the implementation of a law requiring a veil when Islam gains a certain level of dominance over a governmental system. That is the issue. Not an individual sense or modesty or lack thereof.

 

[justjess]

There shouldnt be a law i have no problem admitting that. But thats by my own standard and i have no problem afmitting that either.

Amish, mormons, orthodox jews, nuns, the vatican all have laws about how women should dress. Only one of those is anything resembling a country and no one seems to objevt to the vaticans laws about female attire. No one seems to.object to these limitations placed by other religious/cultural groups either.

If i truly believed with all my heart god said women have to wear hijabs then i wouldnt have a problem with a law forcing compliance. I dont believe that and therefore my perspective is different and i can acknowledge that and get past it.

 

[Aero]

First of all I don't know how you all got from talking about burkas to bare breasts. So I'm just going to leave all of that behind. The original posts whole premise is kind of bunk when you look at the whole thing. Like I just don't know what the conclusion is supposed to be. You're saying women are meant to be oppressed, and than singling out what the Arab world is doing. That makes no sense to me.

How can you be happy about what Christian America forced on you women? A life of servitude to a man. Who basically doesn't have to be worth SHIT. Can treat you like shit, and that's just how it is. I'm just so tired of the crazy ranting against the feminist movement. Because it all boils down to what I just said. Women got tired of being forced to serve men who are fucking useless. What is so hard to understand about that?

Men were leaving their wives in record numbers. Running off with a younger, prettier version. Or just displaying blatant infidelity that the women are just supposed to live with? Ya alright. When you name me one woman leading any of your "holy" churches, than maybe I'll listen to what you think about women's rights. Until than as far as I'm concerned. You are part of the problem.

 

[justjess]

Made the mistake of reading thread backwards.. still havent evrn got to op tbh. Im on like page five.

 

[The Zone]

When they legalize weed and I can see boobs in the summer, PM me. Until then, I will wait a few more days to come back here and wonder if anyone in this forum has a job. Dis place is crazy.

 

[justjess]

How far are you willing to take this logic? Already, here in the States, many women are arguing that, given that it is not illegal for men to go shirtless, neither should it be illegal for women to expose their bare breasts in public. Is "covering that is required by law" and "with legal consequences" oppression in this case?

Ahh so the source of what appeared to me (reading backward) completely unrelated thread of thought..

So does everyone who has a problen with muslim clothing laws have a problem with laws on women wearibg shirts? I get the feeling the answer was no...

 

[AspiringSoul]

Daniel 7 has yet to be fulfilled

The legs of iron part has all happened but the feet of iron/clay is still ongoing.
that is daniel2, but it is connected with Daniel 7.

 

[Kung Fu]

Well, don't waste my time with comparisons that aren't legitimate. Maybe find a fair comparsion and we can have a real conversation. F

If you can't follow your own logical train of thought it means your argument was really weak to begin with and had no legs to really stand on. The comparison is legitimate because it follows the same train of logical thought of the example you brought. It simply continued it through further.

 

[Lisa]

The legs of iron part has all happened but the feet of iron/clay is still ongoing.
that is daniel2, but it is connected with Daniel 7.

This part...
Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates. I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him. Daniel 7:19-27

 

[Lisa]

What a slap in the face to his wife! I hate that she has to sit there and be a part of this...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7313849/Thai-king-anoints-army-nurse-mistress-official-concubine-ceremony-wife.html

 

[Colonel Valerio]

We get it, all the traditional religions hate women, especially the Abrahamic scourge. We didn’t need 14 pages to tell us that.

 

[Lisa]

We get it, all the traditional religions hate women, especially the Abrahamic scourge. We didn’t need 14 pages to tell us that.

I think it was 13 pages of upset muslims who didn’t like that I included women wearing tents in my op.