Deception in the Church

Lisa

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What sin were you condemned for doing?

The first lie that the Abrahamic religions use is to say that we are condemned by God.

They are all liars as they have no way of knowing who God will condemn or not.

What makes any here believe they have been condemned and just what sin do you think merits eternal punishment?

Most people live fairly chase lives. To condemn them to hell would be quite the injustice on God's part.

What were you condemned for doing?

Regards
DL
I’m not sure I understand where you are coming from here...

Who are ya talking about when talking about the Abrahamic religions? I know that Christians know from the Bible that all have sinned, if that’s what you are asking.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-
Romans 5:12

How did that happen?
The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die. Genesis 2:16-17

God gave the Israelites the law to be obeyed with sacrifices to offer to God for their sins but they had to keep offering sacrifices for sin, until God sent His Son to offer the once for all sacrifice for sins if you believe in the Son.

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8

For God, sin is a big deal! And the punishment is death. But He also loves us and sent Himself as sacrifice for our sins because we are unable to satisfy Him with sacrifices on our own.

Hope this answers your questions, but I have a feeling it didn’t. Have a good day Art.
 

Lisa

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I want to know how you explain verses like this:

1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.​

What do you do with verses about Christians being the body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 12:12 - For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.​

What could Paul possibly be talking about here, if not eternal security despite our nasty sins?

Ephesians 4:30 - And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.​

It seems to me like we can grieve the Holy Spirit, which has got to be the result of sin, but the reason we don't want to grieve him is not because we could lose him, but because we are sealed forever by him. But how do you read that verse, having already made your mind up that it can't mean what it plainly says?
On 1John 5:13, one must be a believer, however if you fall away, are you still considered a believer?

I’m not sure what 1Corinthians 12:12 has to do with anything...if you fall away from the faith can you still be considered to be in the body?

Of Ephesians 4:30
Believers are given the helper, the Holy Spirit, and we even see that in Hebrews 6:4 where it says have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. But later in verse 6, we find out you can be a partaker of the Holy Spirit, been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift....yet can still fall away.
 

Lisa

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While you say those who do not believe Jesus is God arent christians, they'd probably say those who believe Jesus is God aren't christians. So again that, to me, shows that catholicism is simply another sect (and quite possibly the original sect) of Christianity with differing beliefs in certain places just like there are Christian sects that believe in following the law and those that don't. The main portion about the sacrifice, 3-in-1 god, resurrection etc... are the same from my view
But Paul tells us
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! Galatians 1:8-9

So, you see there is a right and wrong way to believe. Catholics believe a contrary gospel.
 
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But Paul tells us
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! Galatians 1:8-9

So, you see there is a right and wrong way to believe. Catholics believe a contrary gospel.
Yes and everybody's interpretation of that gospel is different. People read that same gospel you do but leave with different conclusions
 

Daciple

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A big deception in the church is once saved always saved.
I dont believe this is a deception in the Church, in fact I am more inclined to say that the opposite can result in deception, essentially into a Works Based Salvation. I was just reading a Blog about this Topic OSAS vs Apostasy and it explained a position I find to be the most Biblically Accurate and put into words or I guess gave framework to what I have always believed. I will explain it after I contend with some of the verses you have brought up, and in the end maybe we can see a position that hold both ideas in a light we both can agree on, maybe, hopefully...

I know Thunder addressed some of these, but I would like to give my understanding, as I dont necessarily with him because much of what he said relies on Pre Millennialism/Pre Trib as a basis for interpretation, whereas I definitely reject Pre Trib...

Romans 11:20-22
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
So you also quote another Scripture Hebrews 6:4-8, with that in mind how can Paul say immediately after your proof text in Rom 11 concerning being cut off:

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.


If being cut off means losing Salvation as you are quoting the Scripture to uphold, and Heb 6:4-8 says once someone were to fall away never to be restored again, then how can we have God grafting people who were "cut off" back into the vine? Apparently this says if they believe they will be grafted in. My proposition is this is not a good text to support your position, it has other theological holes in it, mainly it makes Rom 11:23 and Heb 6:4-8 conflict...

It is better to be understood that Rom is speaking about the election, Israel was the election, but because of unbelief they were removed from the election and now the Gentiles have been made to become included into the election by belief. If those of Israel were to Repent and Believe then they too can be grafted back in. If the Gentiles as a whole are to become like Israel where as a whole they are unbelieving then the Gentiles will also be cut off from the election of God. Here is this understanding a bit more fleshed out:

https://www.monergism.com/blog/do-cut-olive-branches-romans-11-definitively-prove-salvation-can-be-lost

Matthew 26:33
But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away."
Well this is extremely problematic for your position, in fact I cant believe you would ever quote it. If we take this to mean losing Salvation well we can see that Peter represents the very fact that Salvation can not be lost and maybe you dont understand falling away properly.

So let me ask, does Peter ever fall away? What does Jesus literally say to him right after making this confession?

Matt 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Well even tho Peter said he would never fall away, Jesus straight up tells him, you are going to fall away even before the night is over, and what happens? Of course we know Peter and ALL the Disciples fell away from Christ, so according to you they lost their Salvation correct? If you are asserting this Scripture supports losing Salvation then it must be they all lost Salvation.

And we know with Heb 6, that if they lost their Salvation then they can never get it back, however we know without a doubt that Peter is restored. So which is it, is this supporting losing Salvation or does falling away mean something different? Cant have both...

What this actually teaches very plainly is that we can all come to a point where we can fall away from Christ but just because we fall away means we have Lost our Salvation. It actually shows that we can be restored if we do fall away and that the Disciples Salvation was never Lost cuz you cant fall away from Salvation and ever come back according to Heb...

Matthew 24:10
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Honestly IDK why this translation has this, thats not correct, the correct translation would be:

Matt 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

You can look up the Greek here, the word really doesnt mean fall away it means to put a snare in the way, cause to stumble or become an offense. In Context this is saying that many will be offended by Christ and therefore people will betray and hate one another, nothing to do with Losing Salvation...

1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
So I am going to Context this verse with 2 verses that teach how we should view those that "fall away from the faith", and that would be:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

What do these verses teach? That not all of those who were in Israel were actually of Israel, it is only those who believed that were actually Israel. In the same context John tells us that those who go out from the Church are not of the Church for if they had been of the Church then no doubt they would have continued with the Church, but they went out that they might be know that they were not all of the Church.

It is the basic understanding that if someone falls away, they were never Saved. Of course since we have debated this before and you want to contend people can lose their Salvation you are going to tell me that they really were part of the Church, I counter however that John is right and you are wrong. If they are part of the Church True Believers then they no doubt would continue in the Church.

I have more to say on this but I will leave that for the end and the other ideology to explain all of this hopefully in a way that we both can come to an agreement on...

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end
I believe that you are taking this out of Context, why do you believe this is talking about Losing Salvation?

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


I dont believe this has anything to do with Losing Salvation, and everything to do with making sure to GAIN Salvation. Paul is telling them to not harden their hearts as the Jews did in the wilderness and to make sure they dont get left out of the Rest by refusing to believe. Were the ones that came out of Egypt saved? Nope, not all that come out of Egypt by Moses made it into the Promise Land, only those who believed, and of that generation that would only be Joshua and Caleb. Belief is the central aspect of the Text, not Losing Salvation...

Hebrews 6:4-8
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
So here I dont agree with Thunder, this has nothing to do with Eschatology and I believe it will set a precedent in how we should view all of these supposed conflicting verses so I will address it more fully in a moment...

Hebrews 10:36-39
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Dont know why you quote this, in my view this is actually supporting Eternal Salvation. Who are we? We are NOT of those that shrink back to destruction but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul!!! Amen, we dont fall away we are the perserving of the soul!!

2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Has nothing to do with Losing Salvation, this is saying that LOST people will heap to themselves teachers that tickle their ears so that they wont accept the Truth. And even if you want to conclude it is referring to Saved people as Thunder said, there is nothing of Losing their Salvation in that verse...

Hebrews 3:6
but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house-whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Hebrews 3:14
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Nothing to do with Losing Salvation, who are we again Lisa? IDK about you but I am of those who has faith to the preserving of my soul!!

Luke 21:36
But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.
Nothing to do with Losing Salvation and your version sucks:

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

[QUOTE]Mark 13:13
You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.[/QUOTE]

Nothing about Losing Salvation, who are we? Those who have faith to the preserving of our souls!!!
 

Daciple

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So with all those supposed proof texts addressed, as I said I came across a Blog that I believe puts this into a better perspective and aligns this discussion with an understanding that allows both perspectives to be seen correct at the same time. That sounds impossible maybe but after reflecting on it, I think this is the most reasonable position.

So we usually have 2 crowds when it comes to Apostasy vs OSAS. You have the "Arminian" aka Salvation can be Lost vs the "Calvinst" OSAS. Now I am using these simply as titles, I dont think anyone here is strictly Arminian or Calvinist, its simply the most dominate titles for these respective theologies. In other words dont read more into it than a title, not the full theological implication from each philosophy.

So the Arminian position boils down to Can Lose It/Will Lose It and the Calvinist boils down to Cant/Wont Lose It. So I believe there is a 3rd method of understanding it which keeps any proof text from one side or the other to conflict, and allows both to be upheld as true at the same time and that is the position of Can/Wont. The best possible verse to show this is one Lisa already used as a proof text for her position:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Clearly this teaches that IF someone does fall away after coming to Salvation, aka IF they Lose Salvation all together then it is impossible for them to ever re gain Salvation. There are other proof text, many which are much stronger for Lisa case that she didnt quote for some reason that show there MAY be a possibility for one to Lose their Salvation. However the biggest component of this argument would be FREE WILL.

So the Arminian says that we all have the FREE WILL to leave Christ, therefore we CAN fall away. The Calvinist says we DONT have FREE WILL and God forces us into everything including Salvation. Now here is why I can understand the Arminian position, because I 100% believe in FREE WILL, I fully reject Calvinists understanding of Free Will. So that leaves me and probably everyone else who accepts OSAS in a conundrum, how can we have FREE WILL and not accept a position that allows for us to Lose Salvation.

So here is what I believe, or leaning to believing, but am open to critique. I believe in the fundamental aspect of FREE WILL that everyone has the ability to Lose Salvation in the aspect they can disbelieve in Christ because we are FREE Moral Agents, however I dont believe anyone that has been Saved EVER HAS OR WILL LOSE SALVATION.

I affirm all the dozens of Text that show Salvation is Eternal and will not be Lost, such as John10:27-29, Romans 8:38-39, Jude 24-25, Ephesians 1:13 ect et ect. The position Lisa holds can not possibly counter these verses, they all teach beyond any doubt that our Salvation will not be lost. So we can see via FREE WILL that we must ascertain that there is some kind of possibility that Salvation could be Lost, however we MUST include all of these other verses to show that Salvation will NOT be Lost. Therefore I believe that correct understanding of all of this would be the Can/Wont model.

This appeases those who wish to see verses as showing a possibility or a warning of Apostasy, while also allowing people to keep FREE WILL in tact 100% and yet we can still conclude that once you are saved that you will not lose your Salvation.

The Free Will aspect also lead me to another ideology I am seeing as the best understanding of Free Will and Gods Sovereignty which is again seen in the extremes of Araminism and Calvinism, and that would be Molinism. With an understanding of Molinism we can see how man remains 100% in their own Free Will, while God retains 100% Sovereignty, and thus we can also understand how we can have passages that seem to speak bout Losing Salvation yet fully accept without any doubt that we will not Lose Salvation without compromising our Free Will...

Has anyone else studied and if so what do you think of it? So far it seems the closest framework for the ideology I had already understood concerning Free Will and such..

In the end I believe that the final statement regarding those who apparently have fallen away from the Faith will always boil down to:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Salvation will never be Lost and anyone who looks like an Apostate was never Saved to begin with...
 

Lisa

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Yes and everybody's interpretation of that gospel is different. People read that same gospel you do but leave with different conclusions
And your point is? There is a right and wrong way to view scripture. Catholicism has practices that are not Biblical, and those practices stop them from being Christians. Because for being a Christian, your views must line up with scripture.
 

Todd

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And your point is? There is a right and wrong way to view scripture. Catholicism has practices that are not Biblical, and those practices stop them from being Christians. Because for being a Christian, your views must line up with scripture.
So good works don’t make you a Christian, but wrong religious practices negate you from being a Christian. Makes a lot of sense....
So which denomination doesn’t have any practices that are not biblical?
 

Lisa

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I dont believe this is a deception in the Church, in fact I am more inclined to say that the opposite can result in deception, essentially into a Works Based Salvation. I was just reading a Blog about this Topic OSAS vs Apostasy and it explained a position I find to be the most Biblically Accurate and put into words or I guess gave framework to what I have always believed. I will explain it after I contend with some of the verses you have brought up, and in the end maybe we can see a position that hold both ideas in a light we both can agree on, maybe, hopefully...

I know Thunder addressed some of these, but I would like to give my understanding, as I dont necessarily with him because much of what he said relies on Pre Millennialism/Pre Trib as a basis for interpretation, whereas I definitely reject Pre Trib...



So you also quote another Scripture Hebrews 6:4-8, with that in mind how can Paul say immediately after your proof text in Rom 11 concerning being cut off:

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.


If being cut off means losing Salvation as you are quoting the Scripture to uphold, and Heb 6:4-8 says once someone were to fall away never to be restored again, then how can we have God grafting people who were "cut off" back into the vine? Apparently this says if they believe they will be grafted in. My proposition is this is not a good text to support your position, it has other theological holes in it, mainly it makes Rom 11:23 and Heb 6:4-8 conflict...

It is better to be understood that Rom is speaking about the election, Israel was the election, but because of unbelief they were removed from the election and now the Gentiles have been made to become included into the election by belief. If those of Israel were to Repent and Believe then they too can be grafted back in. If the Gentiles as a whole are to become like Israel where as a whole they are unbelieving then the Gentiles will also be cut off from the election of God. Here is this understanding a bit more fleshed out:

https://www.monergism.com/blog/do-cut-olive-branches-romans-11-definitively-prove-salvation-can-be-lost



Well this is extremely problematic for your position, in fact I cant believe you would ever quote it. If we take this to mean losing Salvation well we can see that Peter represents the very fact that Salvation can not be lost and maybe you dont understand falling away properly.

So let me ask, does Peter ever fall away? What does Jesus literally say to him right after making this confession?

Matt 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Well even tho Peter said he would never fall away, Jesus straight up tells him, you are going to fall away even before the night is over, and what happens? Of course we know Peter and ALL the Disciples fell away from Christ, so according to you they lost their Salvation correct? If you are asserting this Scripture supports losing Salvation then it must be they all lost Salvation.

And we know with Heb 6, that if they lost their Salvation then they can never get it back, however we know without a doubt that Peter is restored. So which is it, is this supporting losing Salvation or does falling away mean something different? Cant have both...

What this actually teaches very plainly is that we can all come to a point where we can fall away from Christ but just because we fall away means we have Lost our Salvation. It actually shows that we can be restored if we do fall away and that the Disciples Salvation was never Lost cuz you cant fall away from Salvation and ever come back according to Heb...



Honestly IDK why this translation has this, thats not correct, the correct translation would be:

Matt 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

You can look up the Greek here, the word really doesnt mean fall away it means to put a snare in the way, cause to stumble or become an offense. In Context this is saying that many will be offended by Christ and therefore people will betray and hate one another, nothing to do with Losing Salvation...



So I am going to Context this verse with 2 verses that teach how we should view those that "fall away from the faith", and that would be:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

What do these verses teach? That not all of those who were in Israel were actually of Israel, it is only those who believed that were actually Israel. In the same context John tells us that those who go out from the Church are not of the Church for if they had been of the Church then no doubt they would have continued with the Church, but they went out that they might be know that they were not all of the Church.

It is the basic understanding that if someone falls away, they were never Saved. Of course since we have debated this before and you want to contend people can lose their Salvation you are going to tell me that they really were part of the Church, I counter however that John is right and you are wrong. If they are part of the Church True Believers then they no doubt would continue in the Church.

I have more to say on this but I will leave that for the end and the other ideology to explain all of this hopefully in a way that we both can come to an agreement on...



I believe that you are taking this out of Context, why do you believe this is talking about Losing Salvation?

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


I dont believe this has anything to do with Losing Salvation, and everything to do with making sure to GAIN Salvation. Paul is telling them to not harden their hearts as the Jews did in the wilderness and to make sure they dont get left out of the Rest by refusing to believe. Were the ones that came out of Egypt saved? Nope, not all that come out of Egypt by Moses made it into the Promise Land, only those who believed, and of that generation that would only be Joshua and Caleb. Belief is the central aspect of the Text, not Losing Salvation...



So here I dont agree with Thunder, this has nothing to do with Eschatology and I believe it will set a precedent in how we should view all of these supposed conflicting verses so I will address it more fully in a moment...



Dont know why you quote this, in my view this is actually supporting Eternal Salvation. Who are we? We are NOT of those that shrink back to destruction but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul!!! Amen, we dont fall away we are the perserving of the soul!!



Has nothing to do with Losing Salvation, this is saying that LOST people will heap to themselves teachers that tickle their ears so that they wont accept the Truth. And even if you want to conclude it is referring to Saved people as Thunder said, there is nothing of Losing their Salvation in that verse...



Nothing to do with Losing Salvation, who are we again Lisa? IDK about you but I am of those who has faith to the preserving of my soul!!



Nothing to do with Losing Salvation and your version sucks:

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

[QUOTE]Mark 13:13
You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Nothing about Losing Salvation, who are we? Those who have faith to the preserving of our souls!!![/QUOTE]
Hello Daciple...I was wondering if you were going to jump in. I will do my best to answer you, but can already tell you the length of your posts deflates me...haha!

You miss the point to Romans 11:23. Which states if they can be cut off...so can you. Later on in Romans we find out that they didn’t stumble to fall, so they will also have a chance to be grafted back in...which I think other scripture tells us that they will believe again.

Again you miss the point of Matthew 26:33. Jesus and Peter know that people can fall away....and ya Peter didn’t fall away on one thing...I never contended people can fall away on one thing...its a gradual thing and it starts with believing the wrong thing and snowballs. Though I suppose if its a big enough thing...say believing in a pre trib and having to stay through the worst time in history...

My translation says fall away.

There is just one problem with the verses you quote 1John 2:19 and Romans 9:6...they don’t trump, The Sprit explicitly (no ifs, ands or buts) that in later times some WILL fall away from the faith. Hebrews 6:4-6 backs this up saying that those who have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and then have fallen away...
Unbelievers cannot have the Holy Spirit...it is only believers that can. So, those verses you quote cannot help this very real fact...believers can indeed fall away from the faith. Later on in Hebrews 6-6 we find out that you do indeed lose your salvation over it.

Hebrews 3:12-14...I took that out of context? I have it totall in context! Read the verse slowly...
Take care brethren that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. Surely, that says it right there. You can fall away from God.
Then it talks about encouraging each other every day so that none of us are hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Again, a warning that something bad can happen to us if only we have eyes to see, Daciple.
Then the clincher...For we have become partakers in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.
Do you see it? The If part of the verse, that means conditional doesn’t it. We have become partakers IF....
If what? If we hold firm to our faith from the beginning until the end..sounds like that is on us. Nothing to do with works here, since you can’t earn your way to heaven. It all has to do with deception and staying in the faith.

Well, if you say that Hebrews 6:4-8 doesn’t really mean what it says, I think that is just disingenuous, really.

Again missing the whole point of Hebrews 10:36-39 which is you can shrink back to the destruction of your soul...the writer of Hebrews is giving encouragement, like the verse in Hebrews 3 that talks about giving encouragement so that none of gets hardened by the deceitfulness of sin....He is obviously not saying that no one is shrinking back, because he already has said that people can shrink back.

Turning away from the truth to myths is falling away. It is being deceived to turn away from the truth in scripture....That is why we are warned so much...don’t believe falsely, you can fall away and lose salvation. Otherwise what is the point of the warnings. If it can’t happen why warn anyone about anything? Why have any of these verses, we are once saved always saved...doesn’t make sense that way.

Again, you miss the IF part of the verse...means there is a condition to that firm until the end part.

Luke 21:36 I think shows that its not the slam dunk that people think it is...same with Mark 13:13

Well, we hope we have faith to the preserving of our souls anyway....
 

Lisa

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So with all those supposed proof texts addressed, as I said I came across a Blog that I believe puts this into a better perspective and aligns this discussion with an understanding that allows both perspectives to be seen correct at the same time. That sounds impossible maybe but after reflecting on it, I think this is the most reasonable position.

So we usually have 2 crowds when it comes to Apostasy vs OSAS. You have the "Arminian" aka Salvation can be Lost vs the "Calvinst" OSAS. Now I am using these simply as titles, I dont think anyone here is strictly Arminian or Calvinist, its simply the most dominate titles for these respective theologies. In other words dont read more into it than a title, not the full theological implication from each philosophy.

So the Arminian position boils down to Can Lose It/Will Lose It and the Calvinist boils down to Cant/Wont Lose It. So I believe there is a 3rd method of understanding it which keeps any proof text from one side or the other to conflict, and allows both to be upheld as true at the same time and that is the position of Can/Wont. The best possible verse to show this is one Lisa already used as a proof text for her position:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Clearly this teaches that IF someone does fall away after coming to Salvation, aka IF they Lose Salvation all together then it is impossible for them to ever re gain Salvation. There are other proof text, many which are much stronger for Lisa case that she didnt quote for some reason that show there MAY be a possibility for one to Lose their Salvation. However the biggest component of this argument would be FREE WILL.

So the Arminian says that we all have the FREE WILL to leave Christ, therefore we CAN fall away. The Calvinist says we DONT have FREE WILL and God forces us into everything including Salvation. Now here is why I can understand the Arminian position, because I 100% believe in FREE WILL, I fully reject Calvinists understanding of Free Will. So that leaves me and probably everyone else who accepts OSAS in a conundrum, how can we have FREE WILL and not accept a position that allows for us to Lose Salvation.

So here is what I believe, or leaning to believing, but am open to critique. I believe in the fundamental aspect of FREE WILL that everyone has the ability to Lose Salvation in the aspect they can disbelieve in Christ because we are FREE Moral Agents, however I dont believe anyone that has been Saved EVER HAS OR WILL LOSE SALVATION.

I affirm all the dozens of Text that show Salvation is Eternal and will not be Lost, such as John10:27-29, Romans 8:38-39, Jude 24-25, Ephesians 1:13 ect et ect. The position Lisa holds can not possibly counter these verses, they all teach beyond any doubt that our Salvation will not be lost. So we can see via FREE WILL that we must ascertain that there is some kind of possibility that Salvation could be Lost, however we MUST include all of these other verses to show that Salvation will NOT be Lost. Therefore I believe that correct understanding of all of this would be the Can/Wont model.

This appeases those who wish to see verses as showing a possibility or a warning of Apostasy, while also allowing people to keep FREE WILL in tact 100% and yet we can still conclude that once you are saved that you will not lose your Salvation.

The Free Will aspect also lead me to another ideology I am seeing as the best understanding of Free Will and Gods Sovereignty which is again seen in the extremes of Araminism and Calvinism, and that would be Molinism. With an understanding of Molinism we can see how man remains 100% in their own Free Will, while God retains 100% Sovereignty, and thus we can also understand how we can have passages that seem to speak bout Losing Salvation yet fully accept without any doubt that we will not Lose Salvation without compromising our Free Will...

Has anyone else studied and if so what do you think of it? So far it seems the closest framework for the ideology I had already understood concerning Free Will and such..

In the end I believe that the final statement regarding those who apparently have fallen away from the Faith will always boil down to:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Salvation will never be Lost and anyone who looks like an Apostate was never Saved to begin with...
Haha, you are funny...What is stronger then in the times of the end the Spirit explicitly says some will fall away from the faith? Or Hebrews 6:4-8 which basically explains it all in a nutshell?
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. Hebrews 6:4-8
 

Lisa

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So good works don’t make you a Christian, but wrong religious practices negate you from being a Christian. Makes a lot of sense....
So which denomination doesn’t have any practices that are not biblical?
Actually it does.
I was talking about catholocism which is another gospel. It doesn’t hold to scripture.

I think that some are closer than others, but catholocism isn’t close.
 
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And your point is? There is a right and wrong way to view scripture. Catholicism has practices that are not Biblical, and those practices stop them from being Christians. Because for being a Christian, your views must line up with scripture.
My point has been the same since the beginning. There are people who claim to be Christian like you do that differ in beliefs. They'd say the beliefs you hold make you a faux Christian just like you say the beliefs they hold make them a faux Christian. They'd say their beliefs line up with scripture just as you say yours do. So what we're really left with is like I said, different sects of the same family disagreeing here or there about beliefs. That's how it looks to an outsider.
 

Lisa

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My point has been the same since the beginning. There are people who claim to be Christian like you do that differ in beliefs. They'd say the beliefs you hold make you a faux Christian just like you say the beliefs they hold make them a faux Christian. They'd say their beliefs line up with scripture just as you say yours do. So what we're really left with is like I said, different sects of the same family disagreeing here or there about beliefs. That's how it looks to an outsider.
Fair enough.
 

Daciple

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@Lisa I was hoping there was going to be some actual discussion that could be had between us, especially within the 2nd Post. Writing one sentence then quoting the same exact Scripture I used to preface my point doesnt equal much of a dialogue. There really isnt much to rebut because you didnt really address anything new, and literally didnt even try or attempt to understand or discuss my 2nd Post. Of what you said:

There is just one problem with the verses you quote 1John 2:19 and Romans 9:6...they don’t trump,
Actually it does, it literally Trumps everything, 100%, if it didnt then John is talking out the side of his mouth.

Also IF doesnt mean has or will, which is what I was trying to get across but I guess it was lost on you...

Anyways since you are not willing to have a dialogue maybe someone else here will..

To any and everyone else:

1) What do you think of the Can/Wont understanding of Salvation I proposed?

2) Have you ever heard of Molinism? What is your viewpoint in it?
 

Lisa

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@Lisa I was hoping there was going to be some actual discussion that could be had between us, especially within the 2nd Post. Writing one sentence then quoting the same exact Scripture I used to preface my point doesnt equal much of a dialogue. There really isnt much to rebut because you didnt really address anything new, and literally didnt even try or attempt to understand or discuss my 2nd Post. Of what you said:



Actually it does, it literally Trumps everything, 100%, if it didnt then John is talking out the side of his mouth.

Also IF doesnt mean has or will, which is what I was trying to get across but I guess it was lost on you...

Anyways since you are not willing to have a dialogue maybe someone else here will..

To any and everyone else:

1) What do you think of the Can/Wont understanding of Salvation I proposed?

2) Have you ever heard of Molinism? What is your viewpoint in it?
The thing is Daciple, I am no match for you in words. You could probably fill pages with the things you think about this, and I say just enough, I’m short and to the point. I don’t know if you have ever followed my replies to people but I don’t elaborate like you do.

Sorry, about the 2nd post, I got lost in the middle of it and actually thought you may have gone on to something else. I don’t know what else I could say or give scripturaly since what I do give proves to me that people can fall away from the faith. It is actually surprising that no one else can see it...

Have a good evening. :)
 

Daciple

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since what I do give proves to me that people can fall away from the faith.
Why dont you go back and read what I wrote? It addresses exactly what you are saying, that people CAN fall away, but the crux of everything is WILL they fall away.

People seem to pick 1 of 2 camps, that people Can Fall Away and Will Fall Away or that people Can't Fall Away and Won't Fall Away. If you read what I wrote I suggest another option that seems to merge these two competing camps into one camp that satisfies BOTH ideologies. That would be that people CAN Fall Away but they WONT Fall Away.

From a Freewill perspective we must conclude that if we have Freewill we CAN Freely walk away, I believe that is the merit of the Scriptures you are basing what you say on, but you are literally ignoring the dozens of Scriptures that show Eternal Salvation.

Does Jesus lose anyone that the Father has given Him, yes or no?

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jesus will not cast out or lose any that the Father shall give to Him, your understanding does NOT address or allow this to be True. Your understanding says Jesus WILL lose some or Jesus WILL cast them out for Sin.

So there MUST be some type of understanding that allows for us to keep our Freewill yet shows that Jesus WONT lose or cast out anyone. That is what I described in my 2nd Post, the Can/Won't perspective.

Then I followed it up with the understanding of Freewill that allows this to be possible as well, called Molinism.

Anyways I hope you take a second to sit down and really truly think about what I have said instead of immediately falling back on your Proof Texts, if you take just a moment to try and understand I am agreeing that Scripture shows that one CAN lose Salvation...
 

Lisa

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@Daciple
I went back and reread what you wrote...which is once saved always saved really.

I see the verses that you’ve given and I don’t think they say once saved always saved myself, but then in the back of my mind is the verses I gave.

If you look a few verses above the ones you quote in Jude you will find...
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
This does not give me confidence in once saved always saved.
God who is indeed able to keep us from stumbling...but like you said, free will and a verse that does say some will fall away from the faith. They are in the faith, its says it plain as day, you can’t really go around saying they weren’t saved to begin with, they are in the faith, they fell from the faith. Plus that verse tells us the Spirit explicitly said that some will fall. That’s no ifs, and or buts. Do you even take in what I’m saying? You who want me to see your point of view. Look at that verse and tell me no one can fall away from the faith.....:rolleyes:
1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
How is it done? Deceit.

Next we have
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14
I don’t see the proof that salvation can’t be lost here...You must believe, if you fall away you don’t believe anymore....right? Having the seal of the Holy Spirit..well in Hebrews 6, we find that you can indeed have that seal and still fall away...

Next...
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. John 10:27-29
I think that one must take a look at the whole verse...and they follow Me. If you’ve fallen from the faith, you aren’t following Jesus anymore. And yes, when you have eternal life no one can snatch you from Him. But to receive eternal life you must be found in the faith. Brings to mind this verse...
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-unless indeed you fail the test? 2 Corinthians 13:5

Lastly...
Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. John 6:35-40
This verse is contingent upon someone coming to Him and believing in Him...like all the verses. And ya, God isn’t the one saying He won’t take you, when He has always said that He will save anyone who believes. It is us believers who can fall away from the faith.

But, it is only those who believe, if you fall away you aren’t a believer at that point and so I think this whole thing where we can be happy and combine the two separate beliefs is a farce, because it negates the very real possibility that people of faith can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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One of the things about deception is how easily those who have little experience are preyed upon by it. I got to thinking that in so many ways falling under deception is like catching an illness. I'm this case it is not physical but one of the heart.

With the physical we can be "run down", overworked or just cold and in a few days we will be sniffling. Spiritually, we can be working off a faulty understanding of God and of our relationship to him. Not long after we will be reaching for the deception cupboard...

I watched this this morning that served as a spiritual health check. What the speaker said resonated very strongly with my sense of the "real thing". Once you know the real, the fake is easier to spot.

 
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Red Sky at Morning

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The more who see this the better and I pray it touches at least one person. Just one, more would be better, but

Matthew 7:13-14

13“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

And

Luke 13:23-28

23Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, 24“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

26“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

28“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

Matthew 22:14

14“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
I watched another one from the same channel. Just excellent!

 

Red Sky at Morning

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I’ll watch now, but I don’t have much tears left from the last one lol. If this one makes me cry too, I surely will have a pounding headache!!! Oh well :D

That channel is amazing, God is definitely on the move....oh, oh. Sorry, but I can’t help myself lol.
Song! Great words - what a time to live in and a God to serve!!
 
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