No regard...for the desire of women

rainerann

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Why? How do you know they are “forced”?
What if they DID choose to wear it, would it still bother you?
The laws of probability suggest that in a place where it is required by law to wear something like this, some percentage is forced. It is just impossible to suggest otherwise. If I were to put myself in their shoes, I would have to be forced to wear something like that. There is no way I would ever choose to wear something like that.

It would have to be a law requiring it. Therefore, it would not be my choice.

The study of probability is fascinating. I don't think many people realize how many mathematicians devoted their lives to this study. Probability is something that plays a great role in all of our lives. So much so, that the subject is not something that can find a conclusion with one person. Therefore, I do consider it mathematically impossible that all the women shown in this photo are wearing this outfit by choice in a region that requires it by law. There is just no perfect ratio of probability anywhere in the world that would suggest this is possible.
 
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I had a muslim neighbor, well she was from Iran anyway. And one day she was telling me that she was going back to Iran and I looked at her, and she said that she had to wear her costume when she went home. She didn’t wear her costume here in the US, in fact she didn’t cover up at all.
“Costume”?!
Oh come on! That was obviously your word, not hers, Lisa.
My daughter goes to grade school with a Muslim girl in her class and she & her Mom both cover their hair & neck with coverings, but Thier face isn’t covered. The head covering isn’t black, the girl wears colored, even patterned ones. They wear modest dresses that are actually quite lovely and they do not resemble the women in the pic you posted at all. They are happy & smiling & my daughter (who is very small for her age & quite shy) pointed her out on the way to school & said that girl was very nice & approached my daughter at recess asking to be friends & my daughter was super happy & accepted. They draw each other cards...cute little pictures in crayon of themselves swinging on swings, coloring, etc.
None of the pictures she has given my daughter show anything more than ordinary drawings by a happy, innocent little girl.
You should really stop believing everything you see on the news.
 

Serveto

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It is also the first time I have heard of him. What do you think about the quote you presented? Do you think it would be positive or do you think it verges on the same inflexibility that theocracies present?
I think what he says is true, and that he wrote it from a vantage point (Chatham House) of an insider (thus as a globalist, adviser to the elite), and that what he describes as "Western" values, technology, etc., is essentially an ersatz, or replacement, religion, international in scope and hegemonic in every detail. I think, in some ways, it is an even more aggressive ideology than any religion we have yet seen, simply because, as he said, it seeks -and has- command of the whole Earth. To me, secularism has some, in fact many, positive aspects, but, though it's not really my business what they do, I would be sorry to see the young women of Iran, for instance, remove their veils only to become, instead, a nation of drunk, twerking Miley Cyrus(es) (to state things in the extreme).

Toynbee was brilliant, and, though no longer much read, I am told, was considered Great Britain's answer, rebuttal, to (Germany's) Oswald Spengler. As I see it, he is not responsible for what Samuel Huntington, these days, may or may not be doing with his theories. His multi-volume study of history sometimes reads more like fascinating metaphysics, and is often criticized on that very score.
 

DesertRose

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None of the pictures she has given my daughter show anything more than ordinary drawings by a happy, innocent little girl.
You should really stop believing everything you see on the news.
Wonderful story Claire. We have told her not to stereotype before but unfortunately Lisa has chosen to be a religious bigot when it comes to Islam.
I guess no chai for Lisa and I;) You are missing out Lisa I make the best tea.

To me, secularism has some, in fact many, positive aspects, but, though it's not really my business what they do, I would be sorry to see the young women of Iran, for instance, remove their veils only to become, instead, a nation of drunk, twerking Miley Cyrus(es) (to state things in the extreme).
Fascinating stuff on Toynbee and that mental image was hilarious.
 

Lisa

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“Costume”?!
Oh come on! That was obviously your word, not hers, Lisa.
My daughter goes to grade school with a Muslim girl in her class and she & her Mom both cover their hair & neck with coverings, but Thier face isn’t covered. The head covering isn’t black, the girl wears colored, even patterned ones. They wear modest dresses that are actually quite lovely and they do not resemble the women in the pic you posted at all. They are happy & smiling & my daughter (who is very small for her age & quite shy) pointed her out on the way to school & said that girl was very nice & approached my daughter at recess asking to be friends & my daughter was super happy & accepted. They draw each other cards...cute little pictures in crayon of themselves swinging on swings, coloring, etc.
None of the pictures she has given my daughter show anything more than ordinary drawings by a happy, innocent little girl.
You should really stop believing everything you see on the news.
No, the neighbor said costume. She doesn’t wear her costume in the states but when she goes to visit family in Iran she wears it. What does that tell ya, Claire?
 

rainerann

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I think what he says is true, and that he wrote it from a vantage point (Chatham House) of an insider (thus as a globalist, adviser to the elite), and that what he describes as "Western" values, technology, etc., is essentially an ersatz, or replacement, religion, international in scope and hegemonic in every detail. I think, in some ways, it is an even more aggressive ideology than any religion we have yet seen, simply because, as he said, it seeks -and has- command of the whole Earth. To me, secularism has some, in fact many, positive aspects, but, though it's not really my business what they do, I would be sorry to see the young women of Iran, for instance, remove their veils only to become, instead, a nation of drunk, twerking Miley Cyrus(es) (to state things in the extreme).

Toynbee was brilliant, and, though no longer much read, I am told, was considered Great Britain's answer, rebuttal, to (Germany's) Oswald Spengler. As I see it, he is not responsible for what Samuel Huntington, these days, may or may not be doing with his theories. His multi-volume study of history sometimes reads more like fascinating metaphysics, and is often criticized on that very score.
Very interesting perspective Serve. So then I am curious to hear what your ideal government situation would look like if you would mind indulging me.

I would also be interested in hearing any connections between Toynbee and the verse from the opening post that you might have.

Daniel 11:37 this is the whole verse, but this thread is focused on the part about women.

"He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all."

I would like to add something I was considering as well about how there could be a connection between the introduction of VR porn and this verse. We had a thread about this a while back. I think that is also an interesting possibility.
 

rainerann

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Thank you. I enjoy talking with you too: we both seem to like scrounging around in old bookshops, extracting gold where it may be found, even if we do go on occasional tangents while describing our finds.

Actually, though I am not very religious, my ideal is exactly that: an ideal, but I pray for it, and it is summarized in the Lord's Prayer:

"Thy (God's) kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven."

In sum, I imagine that to be a state of being, a "kingdom," wherein absolute justice, for everybody, combined with divine mercy, will prevail. I think it might even ultimately involve a change in the natural order of things, indicated by the "wolf dwelling with the lamb, and a little child out in front, taking the lead.

I haven't given it much thought, really. I read @Red Sky at Morning's post above and found it very insightful. I had never heard that thought expressed before.

It is. I think I see your point. By means of VR porn, body suits, sensors, etc., sexual intimacy, as humans have known it, even in the form of unrestrained orgies, could soon be obsolete. "Oh brave, new world, that has such people in it."
I love your answer. I was even going to mention Red's answer too when I was posting the whole verse in context.

"He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all."

I am actually leaning more in Red's direction at the moment. My original connection was between no regard for the desire of women and the curse given to Eve.

However, the verse as a whole picture seems to explain that he will show no regard for the Gods of his fathers or the Messiah or any other God. This suggests an apostasy.

The first story that came to mind when I saw Red's post was of the prophet Anna in Luke 2 who says,

"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all nations: a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel.” (Luke 2:29-32).

Interestingly enough this suggests a Jewish man of sin if we take the verse as a whole because of the way Gods of his fathers is connected to the Messiah and then distinguished from believing in other Gods. After I read Red's post, I actually was considering this when I was rereading the chapter as a whole. I think it fits pretty well, but there always is something new to learn about this subject.

I'm wondering what @Red Sky at Morning has to say about this possibility too.
 
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I had a muslim neighbor, well she was from Iran anyway. And one day she was telling me that she was going back to Iran and I looked at her, and she said that she had to wear her costume when she went home. She didn’t wear her costume here in the US, in fact she didn’t cover up at all.
“Costume”?!
Oh come on! That was obviously your word, not hers, Lisa.
My daughter goes to grade school with a Muslim girl in her class and she & her Mom both cover their hair & neck with coverings, but Thier face isn’t covered. The head covering isn’t black, the girl wears colored, even patterned ones. They wear modest dresses that are actually quite lovely and they do not resemble the women in the pic you posted at all. They are happy & smiling & my daughter (who is very small for her age & quite shy) pointed her out on the way to school & said that girl was very nice & approached my daughter at recess asking to be friends & my daughter was super happy & accepted. They draw each other cards...cute little pictures in crayon of themselves swinging on swings, coloring, etc.
None of the pictures she has given my daughter show anything more than ordinary drawings by a happy, innocent little girl.
You should really stop believing everything you see on the news.
No, the neighbor said costume. She doesn’t wear her costume in the states but when she goes to visit family in Iran she wears it. What does that tell ya, Claire?
It tells me that at least she respects her family’s cultural expectations when she is in her homeland.
Being half Japanese, I know that there are certain traditional & cultural expectations that I must adhere to when I go to Japan to visit family on my mother’s side..,even though I was born here in the States.
For example, last time I visited was 8 years ago, for the funeral of my grandfather. He was VERY traditional, and old-fashioned & since he died at 96, he arranged his funeral well in advance.
He had already chosen his burial location near the top of a small mountain that he grew up on. He wanted traditional funeral.
This meant the men in the family would prepare the body for burial, & he had made his own modest wooden coffin many years prior. The ceremony requires the immediate family to dress in solid white linen garments—-pants & a long tunic for men, & an ankle length kimono for females. The garments must be handmade & starched & pressed by the wearer. The dead was carried up the mountain path by the sons & son in laws of the deceased.
Oh, and you’ll LOVE this, Lisa—-the men lead the way, and walking single file behind the men, according to age, the women must look at the ground as we walk.
It is a show of respect for the male position, as the Japanese are patriarchal in custom. Women are also to remain silent at all times until leaving the burial site. Flower petals are scattered by the youngest females while descending down the mountain.
Now, when I participated in my grandfather’s funeral, do you think I refused to follow custom & broke from tradition?
I DID NOT DARE.
I would have brought shame to our family name & it would have dishonored my grandfather’s last wishes.
Respect & honor are the bedrock of the Japanese, and the elders are treated with the utmost of respect.

So, at least your neighbor had the respect to follow the cultural expectations & customs while visiting her family, even though she doesn’t follow them here.
 

Kung Fu

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What an example of proper debate etiquette. "You're an old racist woman," Such a thoughtful counter-argument.
You're racist as well. Don't think I don't know how you feel about Mexicans, Arabs, and blacks. There's nothing wrong with stating facts. I pray for your soul as well.
 
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Daniel 11 itself literally says

2 “Now then, I tell you the truth: Three more kings will arise in Persia, and then a fourth, who will be far richer than all the others. When he has gained power by his wealth, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece. 3 Then a mighty king will arise, who will rule with great power and do as he pleases. 4 After he has arisen, his empire will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the power he exercised, because his empire will be uprooted and given to others.

Then a mighty king will arise, who will rule with great power and do as he pleases.

^^
This was alexander the great.
The following events lead upto Antiochus Epiphanes. These events coincided with the JEWISH TEMPLE.


This chapter is connected to Daniel 8 where the same person is described.

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s peoplea]">[a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.


13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”


19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.c]">[c] 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.


23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.



26 “The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”



27 I, Daniel, was worn out. I lay exhausted for several days. Then I got up and went about the king’s business. I was appalled by the vision; it was beyond understanding.




The abomination of desolation was fulfilled by Antiochuis Epiphanes (Daniel 8 and 11)
AND also, Titus Daniel 7 and 9.
The desolation which Jesus foretold was the one fulfilled through Titus where 1 million jews were slaughtered.

In Matthew 24, Jesus was talking about the destruction of the jewish temple (destroyed during the same seige) and this is also highlighted in the Daniel 9 seventy week prophecy.

If you wonder why the 'end' hasn't come then use your head and look at Daniel 7. In that chapter, it directly does a time jump. It goes from the 'little horn' prophecy (Titus) where it describes the 10 horns ie the 10 emperors of Rome who precided over the jewish temple (augustus to vespasian) and Titus being the son of vespasian was the litle horn, similarly the prophecy foretold the year of 4 emperors...so the prophecy was very clear. Well, from that prophecy it does a direct jump to the second coming of Jesus and the kingdom of God.
So there is a huge blank space inbetween.
It is just like Jesus saying that no one knows the last hour EXCEPT the Father.

what @Lisa and @rainerann are embarrassingly doing is completely mixing up prophecies with no regards to real context and instead implying they fit either islam or the future anti-christ who is foretold in the book of Revelation.

MAJOR difference between the anti-christ and the abomination of desolation prophecy though...
the anti-christ as foretold in Zechariah 11, is jewish. He betrays the jews ie he sells them out to fulfill his bigger agenda.
the abomination of desolation was a non-jewish person who would attack the jewish nation and the jewish temple.

THIS context does not even apply to islam because since islam has existed there has been no jewish temple and muslims obviously do not want to build a jewish temple either.
ALSO in Matthew 24 Jesus said that timew ould be CUT SHORT
muslims have held the temple mount for over 1200 years........




the abomination of desolation events were fulfilled by the enemies of Jews ie the greeks and romans who both attacked the jewish temple.



Also
"no regard for the desire of women" l

the actual context

6 “The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all. 38 Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39 He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price.d]">[d]

the meaning is pretty clear to me.
 
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Lisa

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“Costume”?!
Oh come on! That was obviously your word, not hers, Lisa.
My daughter goes to grade school with a Muslim girl in her class and she & her Mom both cover their hair & neck with coverings, but Thier face isn’t covered. The head covering isn’t black, the girl wears colored, even patterned ones. They wear modest dresses that are actually quite lovely and they do not resemble the women in the pic you posted at all. They are happy & smiling & my daughter (who is very small for her age & quite shy) pointed her out on the way to school & said that girl was very nice & approached my daughter at recess asking to be friends & my daughter was super happy & accepted. They draw each other cards...cute little pictures in crayon of themselves swinging on swings, coloring, etc.
None of the pictures she has given my daughter show anything more than ordinary drawings by a happy, innocent little girl.
You should really stop believing everything you see on the news.


It tells me that at least she respects her family’s cultural expectations when she is in her homeland.
Being half Japanese, I know that there are certain traditional & cultural expectations that I must adhere to when I go to Japan to visit family on my mother’s side..,even though I was born here in the States.
For example, last time I visited was 8 years ago, for the funeral of my grandfather. He was VERY traditional, and old-fashioned & since he died at 96, he arranged his funeral well in advance.
He had already chosen his burial location near the top of a small mountain that he grew up on. He wanted traditional funeral.
This meant the men in the family would prepare the body for burial, & he had made his own modest wooden coffin many years prior. The ceremony requires the immediate family to dress in solid white linen garments—-pants & a long tunic for men, & an ankle length kimono for females. The garments must be handmade & starched & pressed by the wearer. The dead was carried up the mountain path by the sons & son in laws of the deceased.
Oh, and you’ll LOVE this, Lisa—-the men lead the way, and walking single file behind the men, according to age, the women must look at the ground as we walk.
It is a show of respect for the male position, as the Japanese are patriarchal in custom. Women are also to remain silent at all times until leaving the burial site. Flower petals are scattered by the youngest females while descending down the mountain.
Now, when I participated in my grandfather’s funeral, do you think I refused to follow custom & broke from tradition?
I DID NOT DARE.
I would have brought shame to our family name & it would have dishonored my grandfather’s last wishes.
Respect & honor are the bedrock of the Japanese, and the elders are treated with the utmost of respect.

So, at least your neighbor had the respect to follow the cultural expectations & customs while visiting her family, even though she doesn’t follow them here.
Ya, she had to wear her costume while in Iran.
 

floss

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My daughter goes to grade school with a Muslim girl in her class and she & her Mom both cover their hair & neck with coverings, but Thier face isn’t covered. The head covering isn’t black, the girl wears colored, even patterned ones.
...
You should really stop believing everything you see on the news.
I was at farmer market here in the US and have seen women + daughter wearing head to toe covering (niqab). You can see the fear and sadness through their eyes, it's heart broken. If anyone doesn't believe this is oppression, they need to get a reality check. Screw the religion that oppressed these lost soul. Same goes for hinduism, screw their religion. Just because it is "cultural" doesn't mean it's not religious oppression. To me, defending this type of oppression is the same as condoning evilness.

They look like this picture. This is a walking prison cell! They need the HOPE of CHRIST!



Here is the TRUTH about head cover!!!

1 Corinthians 11:15King James Version (KJV)
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
 
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Vytas

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Half naked in west or fully covered in east ? Between two extremes i like the latter more...

3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
 
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@serveto,I tend to read the amplified version and the complete jewish bible version too just to get a better idea.

ie
37 He will show no respect for the gods his ancestors worshipped, or for the god women worship — he won’t show respect for any god, because he will consider himself greater than all of them. 38 But instead, he will honor the god of strongholds; with gold, silver, precious stones and other costly things he will honor a god unknown to his ancestors.

btw it's kind of funny how here
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+11&version=AMP
it mentions various people by name
ie
But a commander (Lucius Scipio Asiaticus of Rome) will put an end to his aggression [toward Rome’s territorial interests]; in fact, he will repay his insolence and turn his audacity back upon him. 19 Then he will turn back toward the fortresses of his own land [of Syria], but he will stumble and fall and not be found.

20 “Then in his place one (his eldest son, Seleucus IV Philopator) will arise who will send an oppressor through the Jewel of his kingdom



it even mentions Antiochus
28 Then he (Antiochus IV Epiphanes) will return to his land with great treasure (plunder); and his heart will be set against the holy covenant, and he will take action and return to his own land (Syria).

yet it suddenly does a shift, from Antiochus to
36 “Then the king (the Antichrist) will do exactly as he pleases

btw, i talk about how people are 'butchering' the truth with their biased interpretations
an example of that is here
33 They who are wise and have spiritual insight among the people will instruct many and help them understand; yet for many days some [of them and their followers] will fall by the sword and by flame, by captivity and by plunder. 34 Now when they fall they will receive a little help, and many will join with them in hypocrisy.
basically Maimonides the famous jewish philosopher (he was also Salahuddin's own physician).when he judged Jesus, he said that this verse 35 was fulfilled through Jesus.
despite the fact that the entire chapter was really about the maccabean revolt/antiochus era where you had the new 'hellenised' jews vs the orthodox jews.
it kind of does annoy me that someone could 'butcher' the truth in such a cheap way.

these texts aren't even subjective they're pretty clear to me.
i mean those Titus prophecies in Daniel 7 are insane...how those events all unfolded in real history.
The argument was that Daniel was authored during the hellenistic era and therefore the 'prophecies' were just made up..yet the people holding that view can't acknowledge the prophecies of Rome inc the 70 week prophecy and how 'accurate' it was.
 

Lisa

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I was at farmer market here in the US and have seen women + daughter wearing head to toe covering (niqab). You can see the fear and sadness through their eyes, it's heart broken. If anyone doesn't believe this is oppression, they need to get a reality check. Screw the religion that oppressed these lost soul. Same goes for hinduism, screw their religion. Just because it is "cultural" doesn't mean it's not religious oppression. To me, defending this type of oppression is the same as condoning evilness.

They look like this picture. This is a walking prison cell! They need the HOPE of CHRIST!



Here is the TRUTH about head cover!!!

1 Corinthians 11:15King James Version (KJV)
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
Heartbreaking picture floss :(
 

Lisa

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@serveto,I tend to read the amplified version and the complete jewish bible version too just to get a better idea.

ie
37 He will show no respect for the gods his ancestors worshipped, or for the god women worship — he won’t show respect for any god, because he will consider himself greater than all of them. 38 But instead, he will honor the god of strongholds; with gold, silver, precious stones and other costly things he will honor a god unknown to his ancestors.

btw it's kind of funny how here
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+11&version=AMP
it mentions various people by name
ie
But a commander (Lucius Scipio Asiaticus of Rome) will put an end to his aggression [toward Rome’s territorial interests]; in fact, he will repay his insolence and turn his audacity back upon him. 19 Then he will turn back toward the fortresses of his own land [of Syria], but he will stumble and fall and not be found.

20 “Then in his place one (his eldest son, Seleucus IV Philopator) will arise who will send an oppressor through the Jewel of his kingdom



it even mentions Antiochus
28 Then he (Antiochus IV Epiphanes) will return to his land with great treasure (plunder); and his heart will be set against the holy covenant, and he will take action and return to his own land (Syria).

yet it suddenly does a shift, from Antiochus to
36 “Then the king (the Antichrist) will do exactly as he pleases

btw, i talk about how people are 'butchering' the truth with their biased interpretations
an example of that is here
33 They who are wise and have spiritual insight among the people will instruct many and help them understand; yet for many days some [of them and their followers] will fall by the sword and by flame, by captivity and by plunder. 34 Now when they fall they will receive a little help, and many will join with them in hypocrisy.
basically Maimonides the famous jewish philosopher (he was also Salahuddin's own physician).when he judged Jesus, he said that this verse 35 was fulfilled through Jesus.
despite the fact that the entire chapter was really about the maccabean revolt/antiochus era where you had the new 'hellenised' jews vs the orthodox jews.
it kind of does annoy me that someone could 'butcher' the truth in such a cheap way.

these texts aren't even subjective they're pretty clear to me.
i mean those Titus prophecies in Daniel 7 are insane...how those events all unfolded in real history.
The argument was that Daniel was authored during the hellenistic era and therefore the 'prophecies' were just made up..yet the people holding that view can't acknowledge the prophecies of Rome inc the 70 week prophecy and how 'accurate' it was.
Daniel 7 has yet to be fulfilled
 

floss

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Half naked in west or fully covered in east ? Between two extremes i like the latter more...

3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Are all the half naked in the west Christians?
Are all the niqab/burqa wearer Muslims?
 

Serveto

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Half naked in west or fully covered in east ? Between two extremes i like the latter more...

3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
The only time, it seems, that "Westerners," especially Americans, get all dewy-eyed and emo (emotional) about veils, is when a bride wears one for her wedding.
 
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