Deception in the Church

rainerann

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I agree. They did not. Again, and though we discussed some flaws of his work, Heinrich Graetz (and others) goes into great, voluminous, at times mind-numbing detail of the history of the "Gaonate" in exile, or diaspora. Following destruction of the Jerusalem Temple, and during the Gaonate, spanning a period of centuries, the so called "Oral Law," which, among other things, was considered a sort of "hedge of protection" against what was considered Christian usurpation and misuse of the Old Testament (to prove Christian claims), was put into written form and became the Talmud, Palestinian and Babylonian. The overall corpus of Jewish literature produced during this time also includes Maimonides' influential Commentary on the Mishneh Torah. Interestingly enough, though the Torah itself is written in Hebrew, of course, Maimonides, given his historical location and circumstances, wrote at least parts of his Commentary in Arabic, a language of intellectuals, Jewish, Christian and Muslim alike, with whom he was in contact and corresponded.

The Pharisees, as the rabbis of normative, Orthodox Judaism, in large part retained judicial and even executive power over the often ghettoized Jews throughout the diaspora (dispersion), until the comparatively recent Haskhala, or so called Jewish Enlightenment, at which time many Jews became secularized, assimilated into Western, especially European culture, and thereby broke rabbinic control. While many Christians opposed Orthodox Jews externally, from the outside, Karaites, who rejected the Talmud, opposed them internally, from within Judaism. The Karaites survive to this day, though their numbers are dwindled to practically nothing.


That doesn't matter: one must still get permission from the ideological vanguards at the Anti-Defamation League to say so :cool:.
I love how you hyperlink so many things. It is very considerate and time consuming for you I’m sure. It is very generous of you to do.

So yes, what you are saying does demonstrate my point in some respects. There are two very different Jewish cultures. This becomes confusing for people sometimes.

One culture grows from the judgment given to the priest in Malachi. The other represent the lost sheep who are saved and became an integral part of the early church. The connection to these people who were set free is evident in including the Old Testament in our cannon and in many other ways.

Jews and gentiles were fused together as a solid unit. I think a study of English literature shows this. I just don’t know when John Bunyan or even Isaac newton demonstrate the impression that replacement theology ever existed. I use them as examples because they would have been able to read and study scripture while some wouldn’t have been able to do this.

The complexity to this is not often admitted in Jewish historical accounts especially when they are written down in more recent history. The culture has changed so that translating the history that wasn’t written down is not easy to find. There aren’t many books where the hatred some of these people had towards Christians is admitted.

So many of these early writings were very much propaganda in nature and many other things that are true were lost. They were a way to present the Jewish community to the public the way they wanted to be seen.
 

Thunderian

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Deception in the Church.....
A big deception in the church is once saved always saved.
The deception is that you can lose your salvation. The gift of God is eternal life, and while Satan can't rob us of that gift, he can certainly steal our joy as Christians by making us doubt we're really saved.

How do we get saved? We are saved when we admit we are sinners and accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.

How do we lose our salvation? Well, some would have you believe that you can lose it by sinning. But we didn't have to stop sinning to be saved, did we? So where does the idea come from that we can lose salvation by sinning?

The Bible is clear that once we are saved, we receive the gift of eternal life, and the Bible also says that God does not take his gifts back. We are saved forever whether we like it -- or believe it -- or not.

Romans 11:20-22
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Paul is addressing gentiles as a group. He is telling them that God has extended to them what had previously been extended just to Israel (as a group), until they lost their chance through unbelief. Gentiles are warned not to lose their own chance by refusing to believe.

Matthew 26:33
But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away."
Matthew 24:10
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end
As I said, God does not take his gifts back. Just because someone falls away from the faith doesn't mean God takes away their salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-8
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Hebrews is written to Jews, not to the Church, and specifically addresses salvation during the Tribulation, which will have a works component, and can be lost by falling away or by taking the mark of the beast.

Hebrews 10:36-39
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
I don't see the part in that verse where a Christian loses their salvation.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Lots of saved people will listen to untruths and believe them. Nothing about their salvation being lost is in that verse.

Hebrews 3:6
but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house-whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
More evidence this is written for Jews. We are not Christ's house, and he is not our son. But Israel is his house, and he is a son of Israel.

Hebrews 3:14
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
The Jews who endure during the Tribulation will inherit salvation through Christ.

Luke 21:36
But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.
More Tribulation references, addressed to Jews.

Mark 13:13
You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
As I said, the Jew who remains faithful and believes on the name of Jesus will be saved out of the Tribulation.

The New Testament tells us about the way of salvation that is offered to us now, starting with the beginning of the Church in Acts and ending at the Rapture. Those who are saved today become part of the Church, the body of Christ, and are sealed forever by his spirit. The idea that there is anything we can do or not do to affect our salvation in Jesus Christ once we are saved is a lie from Satan's lips. "Yea, hath God said?" he whispers. "Hath God really said ... ?" Even Christians hear that voice sometimes, and believe it.

But God made it real easy. Confess, believe, and you are saved. Your sins -- ALL YOUR SINS -- are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ, marked Paid In Full, removed as far from you as the east is from the west, and forgotten forever.
 

rainerann

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Sorry. I don't know the reference. Could you please provide it?
Yes of course. Here it is

I would also like to add that it is difficult to get an honest account of Jewish history outside of the Bible. They just stopped being objective because you just won't find many people who are willing discuss what the prophet Malachi has to say here. This is one of the reasons I have so much respect and support for an organization like True Torah Jews. They embrace the prophets in a way that most Jewish historians don't seem to be able to do.
 
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Lucifer in Latin is a word, not a name, signifying "he who brings light". It's not because some new age pseudo-spiritual occultists recreated the concept of Lucifer that it has the same meaning in Catholic liturgy. Lucifer (or morning star) is used in reference to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:19:

We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris


Are you saying the scripture too has been corrupt since its inception?
I'm questioning what morning star Jesus is the son of according to the pope as well as what connection that Lucifer has with the Lucifer referenced by freemason Albert Pike

Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!
 

Lisa

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Catholicism is the mother to Christianity. The difference between the two (pope/Mary beliefs) is similar to the differences that pop up within christianity (Jesus being/not being God)
No, catholicism is the knock off of Christianity. A really bad knock off at that!
Sad because there is over a billion catholics in the world.

I don’t know that there was an actual difference in Christianity about Jesus being God? Just because some people might think that Jesus wasn’t does not make them Christians.

Where as Mary was not ever God or part of the trinity yet catholics and the pope keep propping her up and moving her above God the Father even!
Vatican City, Jan 1, 2018 / 03:55 am (CNA/EWTN News).- At the start of the new year, Pope Francis said that having a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary isn’t just something that is nice or good to do, but is an obligation in the life of a Christian.

“Devotion to Mary is not spiritual etiquette; it is a requirement of the Christian life,” the Pope said Jan. 1. “The gift of the Mother, the gift of every mother and every woman, is most precious for the Church, for she too is mother and woman.”

When did Jesus ever involve His mother like that? Answer-never! I and the Father are One, He says.
And when Jesus tells us to pray, He says Our Father...nothing about his human mother, yet catholics pray to Mary and worship her as God. Wrong all the way around.
 
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I'm sure I've mentioned this to you before, Lisa, but in Catholicism there's a distinction between veneration of saints (dulia), veneration of Mary (hyperdulia) and worship of God (latria) Hyperdulia (for Mary) is a heightened form of saint veneration, but worship is given to God alone (The Father, the Son & Holy Spirit).
 
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Lisa

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The deception is that you can lose your salvation. The gift of God is eternal life, and while Satan can't rob us of that gift, he can certainly steal our joy as Christians by making us doubt we're really saved.

How do we get saved? We are saved when we admit we are sinners and accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.

How do we lose our salvation? Well, some would have you believe that you can lose it by sinning. But we didn't have to stop sinning to be saved, did we? So where does the idea come from that we can lose salvation by sinning?

The Bible is clear that once we are saved, we receive the gift of eternal life, and the Bible also says that God does not take his gifts back. We are saved forever whether we like it -- or believe it -- or not.



Paul is addressing gentiles as a group. He is telling them that God has extended to them what had previously been extended just to Israel (as a group), until they lost their chance through unbelief. Gentiles are warned not to lose their own chance by refusing to believe.



As I said, God does not take his gifts back. Just because someone falls away from the faith doesn't mean God takes away their salvation.



Hebrews is written to Jews, not to the Church, and specifically addresses salvation during the Tribulation, which will have a works component, and can be lost by falling away or by taking the mark of the beast.



I don't see the part in that verse where a Christian loses their salvation.



Lots of saved people will listen to untruths and believe them. Nothing about their salvation being lost is in that verse.



More evidence this is written for Jews. We are not Christ's house, and he is not our son. But Israel is his house, and he is a son of Israel.



The Jews who endure during the Tribulation will inherit salvation through Christ.



More Tribulation references, addressed to Jews.



As I said, the Jew who remains faithful and believes on the name of Jesus will be saved out of the Tribulation.

The New Testament tells us about the way of salvation that is offered to us now, starting with the beginning of the Church in Acts and ending at the Rapture. Those who are saved today become part of the Church, the body of Christ, and are sealed forever by his spirit. The idea that there is anything we can do or not do to affect our salvation in Jesus Christ once we are saved is a lie from Satan's lips. "Yea, hath God said?" he whispers. "Hath God really said ... ?" Even Christians hear that voice sometimes, and believe it.

But God made it real easy. Confess, believe, and you are saved. Your sins -- ALL YOUR SINS -- are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ, marked Paid In Full, removed as far from you as the east is from the west, and forgotten forever.
I thought the falling away was because of deception...
1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

Yes, God doesn’t take His gifts back, but we can chose to stay or leave. Though I don’t think it ends up as cut and dry in that one day you just say, I’m done, maybe some do? I think it’s a gradual thing, and honestly, I look at Todd. He no longer understands the truth in scripture and is trying to spread another gospel.

Ya the Jews will be in the great trib but so will Christians.

I’m not saying has God said you’re really saved? I think people are saved, my point is they can fall away from the faith and I think that due to certain verses I put in the op. I don’t think once saved always saved is Biblical especially when you have a verse that states that the Spirit explicitly tells us some will fall away from the faith. I don’t even really understand how we can be having this conversation because it seems so cut and dried to me...
 
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Deception in the Church.....
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What sin were you condemned for doing?

The first lie that the Abrahamic religions use is to say that we are condemned by God.

They are all liars as they have no way of knowing who God will condemn or not.

What makes any here believe they have been condemned and just what sin do you think merits eternal punishment?

Most people live fairly chase lives. To condemn them to hell would be quite the injustice on God's part.

What were you condemned for doing?

Regards
DL
 

Thunderian

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I thought the falling away was because of deception...
1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
Where is the part in the Bible that says those who fall away lose their salvation?

Yes, God doesn’t take His gifts back, but we can chose to stay or leave.
Where is that in the Bible?

Ya the Jews will be in the great trib but so will Christians.
I never said they wouldn't be. But the Church will be gone. People who get saved during the Tribulation do not belong to the Church.

I’m not saying has God said you’re really saved? I think people are saved, my point is they can fall away from the faith and I think that due to certain verses I put in the op. I don’t think once saved always saved is Biblical especially when you have a verse that states that the Spirit explicitly tells us some will fall away from the faith. I don’t even really understand how we can be having this conversation because it seems so cut and dried to me...
You keep saying that once saved/always saved doesn't exist because the Bible says people will fall away from the faith. But nowhere is there a verse that says that falling away from the faith results in losing your salvation. The Bible says that even when we are unfaithful to Jesus, he will still be faithful to us. The Bible says we are sealed forever unto the day of redemption. The Bible says that we are part of Christ's body. Do you think God would cut off a part of his own body? Do you think God would break his promise? Do you think he would allow us to break his promise for him? How can once saved/always saved not be Biblical if it's in the Bible? Verse after verse attests to the permanence of our salvation. Eternal life means forever, and eternal life is the gift we receive when we are saved.
 
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Lisa

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Where is the part in the Bible that says those who fall away lose their salvation?



Where is that in the Bible?



I never said they wouldn't be. But the Church will be gone. People who get saved during the Tribulation do not belong to the Church.



You keep saying that once saved/always saved doesn't exist because the Bible says people will fall away from the faith. But nowhere is there a verse that says that falling away from the faith results in losing your salvation. The Bible says that even when we are unfaithful to Jesus, he will still be faithful to us. The Bible says we are sealed forever unto the day of redemption. The Bible says that we are part of Christ's body. Do you think God would cut off a part of his own body? Do you think God would break his promise? Do you think he would allow us to break his promise for him? How can once saved/always saved not be Biblical if it's in the Bible? Verse after verse attests to the permanence of our salvation. Eternal life means forever, and eternal life is the gift we receive when we are saved.
Hebrews 6:4-6
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Hebrews 3:12-19
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME." For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

I believe the proof is every time God tells us if you do this or that, i.e..if you remain in Me.

Again, I don’t believe the church will be gone, and the martyrs under the alter are Christian beheaded for their testimonies of Jesus.

In other verses we are told that people lose it, I can only come to the one conclusion. Ya, He is still faithful to us, but the fact is that the Spirit explicitly saying people will fall away. This has nothing to do with God doing anything but letting people have free will.
I don’t think Christ would cut off part of His body, but I do believe that people will fall away from Him.
Yes, exactly, we become partakers of Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end....do you see the if...its one of the if’s that I am talking about! It sounds like it is our choice if we stay.

I have never read about permanence in the scripture, especially when we are told point blank that the Spirit says explicitly some will fall away. Then so many verses with if in them. It gives me the impression that I have and I don’t think I’m wrong here.
 

Thunderian

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Hebrews 6:4-6
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Hebrews 3:12-19
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME." For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
These verses do not apply to Christians during the Church age. The Book of Hebrews is for Jews, and is referring to the Tribulation, where salvation can be lost, just like you think it can now.

You haven't addressed any of the verses that say you can't lose your salvation and that contradict what you are saying. How can the Bible make any sense if there are contradictory verses?

A rightly divided Bible makes sense.
 

Lisa

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These verses do not apply to Christians during the Church age. The Book of Hebrews is for Jews, and is referring to the Tribulation, where salvation can be lost, just like you think it can now.

You haven't addressed any of the verses that say you can't lose your salvation and that contradict what you are saying. How can the Bible make any sense if there are contradictory verses?

A rightly divided Bible makes sense.
Well, that’s strange because the verse talks about having the Holy Spirit and talks about when they fall away they can’t be regenerated. I maintain it is for Christians now. I know you think its for the Jews, but the Jews aren’t the ones reading God’s word, its Christians.

I have already addressed them in the op. I feel they are verses that talk about falling away and what happens. I don’t think any of the verses contradict themselves, but build on each other and have convinced me that salvation can be lost.
 

Thunderian

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the Jews aren’t the ones reading God’s word, its Christians.
Who was Paul writing to, though?

You have not addressed one single verse where we are promised eternal security. Why would Jesus promise we would have his spirit inside us forever if we can lose it by sinning? How does that make any sense at all?
 

Lisa

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Who was Paul writing to, though?

You have not addressed one single verse where we are promised eternal security. Why would Jesus promise we would have his spirit inside us forever if we can lose it by sinning? How does that make any sense at all?
Well, post me the verses you are talking about.
Paul wrote to the Gentiles.

I cant’ comment on the verse you are talking about since I’m not sure which one you are talking about. And I have already said repeatedly how we can lose it and what verses I believe prove what I’m saying.
 

Thunderian

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I cant’ comment on the verse you are talking about since I’m not sure which one you are talking about. And I have already said repeatedly how we can lose it and what verses I believe prove what I’m saying.
I want to know how you explain verses like this:

1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.​

What do you do with verses about Christians being the body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 12:12 - For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.​

What could Paul possibly be talking about here, if not eternal security despite our nasty sins?

Ephesians 4:30 - And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.​

It seems to me like we can grieve the Holy Spirit, which has got to be the result of sin, but the reason we don't want to grieve him is not because we could lose him, but because we are sealed forever by him. But how do you read that verse, having already made your mind up that it can't mean what it plainly says?
 

Lisa

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What sin were you condemned for doing?

The first lie that the Abrahamic religions use is to say that we are condemned by God.

They are all liars as they have no way of knowing who God will condemn or not.

What makes any here believe they have been condemned and just what sin do you think merits eternal punishment?

Most people live fairly chase lives. To condemn them to hell would be quite the injustice on God's part.

What were you condemned for doing?

Regards
DL
Sorry I missed this tonight, I will reply tomorrow.
 

Lisa

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@Thunderian
I’m gonna answer your latest post tomorrow...

But I think I brought up a good point about the ifs in scripture.
The verse you brought up
For we have become partakers in Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance to the end.
Don’t you think the if is conditional? And doesn’t the verse tell us that it’s conditional on us holding fast to our assurance from the beginning to the end?
 
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No, catholicism is the knock off of Christianity. A really bad knock off at that!
Sad because there is over a billion catholics in the world.

I don’t know that there was an actual difference in Christianity about Jesus being God? Just because some people might think that Jesus wasn’t does not make them Christians.

Where as Mary was not ever God or part of the trinity yet catholics and the pope keep propping her up and moving her above God the Father even!
Vatican City, Jan 1, 2018 / 03:55 am (CNA/EWTN News).- At the start of the new year, Pope Francis said that having a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary isn’t just something that is nice or good to do, but is an obligation in the life of a Christian.

“Devotion to Mary is not spiritual etiquette; it is a requirement of the Christian life,” the Pope said Jan. 1. “The gift of the Mother, the gift of every mother and every woman, is most precious for the Church, for she too is mother and woman.”

When did Jesus ever involve His mother like that? Answer-never! I and the Father are One, He says.
And when Jesus tells us to pray, He says Our Father...nothing about his human mother, yet catholics pray to Mary and worship her as God. Wrong all the way around.
While you say those who do not believe Jesus is God arent christians, they'd probably say those who believe Jesus is God aren't christians. So again that, to me, shows that catholicism is simply another sect (and quite possibly the original sect) of Christianity with differing beliefs in certain places just like there are Christian sects that believe in following the law and those that don't. The main portion about the sacrifice, 3-in-1 god, resurrection etc... are the same from my view
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I mentioned earlier that I was on about two and a half of the deceptions identified in the OP, namely eternal security and pre-trib rapture - I watched a very interesting talk that makes me think I am now a "three deceptions" kind of guy....

A very interesting and informative (or highly deceptive, depending on your pov) talk here on the Critical Text Vs the Traditional Text (and why I'm making friends with my KJV.

 
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