Christian Zionism Discussed

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Kung Fu

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Karlysymon said:
It is blind support. A sort of indulgence sold to evangelicals. 'Bless Abraham's descendants' and God will you pay back in kind. The political establishment has been kind enough to bestow the blessing (to further their M.E agenda), hence buttressing the belief. They need televangelists to sell their policies/white papers as prophecies :D to dampen opposition. Just my pov
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Thanks. What about Abraham's son Ishmael and his descendants wouldn't they also qualify for this? Just curious.
 
Etagloc

Etagloc

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Karlysymon said:
It is blind support. A sort of indulgence sold to evangelicals. 'Bless Abraham's descendants' and God will you pay back in kind. The political establishment has been kind enough to bestow the blessing (to further their M.E agenda), hence buttressing the belief. They need televangelists to sell their policies/white papers as prophecies :D to dampen opposition. Just my pov
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But they're not even descended from the Biblical Jews!

It's like if Rachel Dolezal asked for reparations. Really it's even worse- it's like if Rachel Dolezal asked for reparations and demanded it from some totally random country.
 
Red Sky at Morning

Red Sky at Morning

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Kung Fu said:
Why do Protestant and Evangelical Christians generally hold this unwavering support for Israel while Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Christians vary in their support for Israel?
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The Jews and the Church have a long history... The Bible describes them as a "stiff necked people"...

Deuteronomy 7 sums it up...

"7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."

For reasons that matter to God, he has sworn to uphold his side of the deal when it comes to this group of people. They rejected Jesus and the Gospel went out to the Gentiles in the "highways and byways". I suspect that some of those Gentiles from Catholic and Orthodox backgrounds wanted to push away from the Messiah rejecting Jews, and went so far as mothballing the celebration of the Jewish feasts of Passover and Tabernacles and substituting Easter and Christmas. Both groups became suspicious of one another and distance increased between them. This was all before my time, of course!

I think many Evangelicals and Protestants have re-evaluated their long standing distance from the Jews, and realised that Jesus was a semitic man, not the white European of much iconic art.

Whilst many may disagree with me, I think God has unfinished business with the Jews, which is why they have been returned to their ancient Homeland, but largely in unbelief. The mixture of good and evil, Messianic and Messiah rejecting will continue till the final showdown of history occurs.

The reason why I have tried to sound the alarm over prophecy etc is that when things start to move, exactly what might happen is anyone's guess. If or when they do, circumstances may quickly overtake us, and further communication over things may not longer be possible.

This is the truth that changed my life and that of millions of others. It is also the one that real Israel, a sub-group of current political Israel will need to accept if they are to see the Kingdom of God.


I have said everything I can on this forum for the moment. I didn't come to beat anyone at debates, get popular or sell anything. I just wanted to "take my glasses off" and share what I have been given. I may check in from time to time, but I would only be saying the same thing and that would be just repetition!

May the Lord bless you all and work in your lives. I pray for personal safety for all of us in the uncertain times ahead, and that those who truly seek Him should find Him.

Shalom.
 
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T

The Zone

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Red Sky at Morning said:
The Jews and the Church have a long history... The Bible describes them as a "stiff necked people"...

Deuteronomy 7 sums it up...

"7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."

For reasons that matter to God, he has sworn to uphold his side of the deal when it comes to this group of people. They rejected Jesus and the Gospel went out to the Gentiles in the "highways and byways". I suspect that some of those Gentiles from Catholic and Orthodox backgrounds wanted to push away from the Messiah rejecting Jews, and went so far as mothballing the celebration of the Jewish feasts of Passover and Tabernacles and substituting Easter and Christmas. Both groups became suspicious of one another and distance increased between them. This was all before my time, of course!

I think many Evangelicals and Protestants have re-evaluated their long standing distance from the Jews, and realised that Jesus was a semitic man, not the white European of much iconic art.

Whilst many may disagree with me, I think God has unfinished business with the Jews, which is why they have been returned to their ancient Homeland, but largely in unbelief. The mixture of good and evil, Messianic and Messiah rejecting will continue till the final showdown of history occurs.

The reason why I have tried to sound the alarm over prophecy etc is that when things start to move, exactly what might happen is anyone's guess. If or when they do, circumstances may quickly overtake us, and further communication over things may not longer be possible.

This is the truth that changed my life and that of millions of others. It is also the one that real Israel, a sub-group of current political Israel will need to accept if they are to see the Kingdom of God.


I have said everything I can on this forum for the moment. I didn't come to beat anyone at debates, get popular or sell anything. I just wanted to "take my glasses off" and share what I have been given. I may check in from time to time, but I would only be saying the same thing and that would be just repetition!

May the Lord bless you all and work in your lives. I pray for personal safety for all of us in the uncertain times ahead, and that those who truly seek Him should find Him.

Shalom.
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So just take your ball/bible and go home....:) Or stay.

If you must go, thanks for your patience and being a good forum member. I saw your plea for rational discussion in another thread and attempt to calm the waters. I am afraid that some here do not have the ability, wisdom or maturity necessary to adhere to your request. In the end, all of this is bigger than a forum.
 
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Orwell's mentor

Orwell's mentor

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Etagloc said:
But they're not even descended from the Biblical Jews!

It's like if Rachel Dolezal asked for reparations. Really it's even worse- it's like if Rachel Dolezal asked for reparations and demanded it from some totally random country.
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Lol! Yeah, that Rachel Dolezal incident was… something. However, you’re not that far off the mark. If memory serves, I actually think it’s in this entire interview that’s at the beginning of this video clip here with Shulamit Aloni, where Amy Goodman even states that people can convert to Judaism, or be a practicing Jew in the US and start living in one of the illegal settlements in Israel, despite the fact Palestinians have had the land in their family for generations.
 
Red Sky at Morning

Red Sky at Morning

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The Zone said:
So just take your ball/bible and go home....:) Or stay.

If you must go, thanks for your patience and being a good forum member. I saw your plea for rational discussion in another thread and attempt to calm the waters. I am afraid that some here do not have the ability, wisdom or maturity necessary to adhere to your request. In the end, all of this is bigger than a forum.
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OK - I deleted all my shortcuts to the forum, then watched the clip I posted up...

However much it hurts to find myself at this point in history, and to see people that matter to me fighting over the things I care about the most, I don't get to say when I leave.

I will be away for a while but where else am I going to find such a mix of interesting people (apart from back at High School). See you about.
 
Karlysymon

Karlysymon

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Kung Fu said:
Thanks. What about Abraham's son Ishmael and his descendants wouldn't they also qualify for this? Just curious.
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Even though you claim Paul to have been a false prophet, this what he wrote about the promise in Gen 12.
Gal 3:6-9

"So also Abraham ‘believed God, and it was
credited to him as
righteousness.’Understand, then, that those who believe are
children of Abraham. Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’ So those who have faith are blessed along with
Abraham, the man of faith."
*****
However much God's promise to Abraham is sold to the mass, where are the tangible, positive results of this unwavering support? Point out one thing that one claim is God's response to the unwavering support of Israel. One look at the state of society and it looks like a bad investment.
And as @Serveto pointed out somewhere on page 2, people will come to this realization, that it was all a lie when the dam breaks. When you can't afford meals for your family, you'll wonder where God's blessings are for all the trillions of tax-payer money in aid to Israel for the last 70yrs, i mean, God has to fulfill His end of the deal. Right? Its at this point in time that people will be out for blood...
 
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DesertRose

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Serveto

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Red Sky at Morning said:
... One question that has rattled around in my head for a while (and you might comment on this) - before there was ever a Zionist advantage in being a Jew, for centuries it was a great disadvantage. Tradition, family and circumcision would mark Jews out wherever they went in the world. Many times and in many places round the world they were persecuted and their "Jewishness" would be, for many, more of a burden than an advantage. For those who see some centuries old Zionist plot where even the treatment they received in Germany was really a complex Hegalian move to play a master stroke and place them in their desired seat of power, I just don't buy it (though some might, and there is nothing I could say that would shake their view).
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Thank you for your well-reasoned post in total, though I only quote it in part. That makes two of us who don't buy it. I can, as you requested, comment, and will try to be brief with a complicated subject. I've studied not only Jewish History, as told by predominantly Jewish historians, but also the history of Zionism in some detail, though I am by no means an expert, which is why I want to discuss ideas in this thread and learn from others.

With that said, I will copy over an interesting -to me, anyway- minority perspective from a "True Torah Jew" (hi @rainerann :)). To him, it was clear that, far from being the fulfillment of (his) Messianic dreams, the establishment of the State of Israel was a continuing tragedy, capable of succeeding only because religious Jews, in the main, were down and altogether decimated, due to the depredations and persecutions their people suffered during the WWII era.

As a backdrop, it should be kept in mind that, for two millenia, as I imperfectly understand, it was held as something in the nature of a dogma, promulgated by Orthodox Rabbis, that the true, Messianic state of Israel, a Jewish Commonwealth, was not to be established unless and until the Messiah were present, calling the dispersed home. As a somewhat pitiful -at least pitiable- example of this phenomenon in action, consider the effect that the "false" Messiah, Sabbatai Zevi, had on the worldwide Jewish community in the 17th Century, when, mistakenly, it turned out, thinking him the Messiah, many Jews migrated, in mass, to (Ottoman Turkish) Palestine.

It is to this fact, that Jews were instructed to not repatriate Palestine/Israel until Messiah, that Sir Edwin Montagu, a Jewish critic of Zionism, referred, when he wrote his letter to the British government, stating his opposition, with full cheek and apparent sarcasm, to the then recently released Balfour Declaration and to its two principal signatories:
.. I have always understood, by the Jews before Zionism was invented, that to bring the Jews back to form a nation in the country from which they were dispersed would require Divine leadership. I have never heard it suggested, even by their most fervent admirers, that either Mr. Balfour or Lord Rothschild would prove to be the Messiah ...
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This, now, is how a carry-over and staunch defender of that ancient Orthodox perspective, Rabbi Moshe Teitelbaum, described the "new Hellenism," secular Zionism, and the establishment of the secular Zionists' seat of power in Israel. It is a plaintive cry, but one worth hearing:

"But that they [secular Zionists] would set up a state in Eretz Yisroel [Greater Israel]- no one dreamed that such a thing could ever happen.

But unfortunately, after the war, when the Jewish people suffered the great tragedy, and so many gedolei Torah from that period passed away - some naturally, but most killed by the evil one. We were left so spiritually poor, there had never been anything like it before. And just at that time, when the Jews were still languishing in the DP camps, the Satan succeeded and the state was founded in Eretz Yisroel.

It was truly a great danger. What tzaddikim [righteous ones] foresaw a generation earlier came true - but in an unimaginable way. Had this happened in a time of gedolei Torah, religious Jews, when most Jews kept the Torah, it would not have been such a danger. But it had to happen just at the time when the Jewish people was in the lowest possible state, spiritually and physically. That is when the great test took place, when the Satan was given the power to set up a state in Eretz Yisroel, when Jews could be convinced that there was, G-d forbid, some salvation in it, and it might help."
 
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TokiEl

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God hath striken the Shepherd and scattered the flock and refined them in fire... any day they will be tested and then they will call on Him.

"Sword, awake against My shepherd, And against a hero -- My fellow, An affirmation of Jehovah of Hosts. Smite the shepherd, and scattered is the flock, And I have put back My hand on the little ones. And it hath come to pass, In all the land, an affirmation of Jehovah, Two parts in it are cut off -- they expire, And the third is left in it. And I have brought the third into fire, And refined them like a refining of silver, And have tried them like a trying of gold, It doth call in My name, and I answer it, I have said, 'My people it is,' And it saith, 'Jehovah is my God!'" - Zechariah 13:7-9
 
Lisa

Lisa

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Kung Fu said:
Why do Protestant and Evangelical Christians generally hold this unwavering support for Israel while Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Christians vary in their support for Israel?
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The difference of Christianity and catholocism...
 
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