Christian Zionism Discussed

Red Sky at Morning

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I'm not going to argue with you, Lisa. You are no more accountable to me than I am to you. You know your heart and the spirit in which you say things. I know mine. Both of us are inclined to get annoyed when we get misunderstood and mis-represented. I gain nothing from throwing people under busses.

Best left here. Sensitive topic, polarised views, frayed tempers and text being pretty low grade communication. If I have offended you, I apologise.
 

Kung Fu

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Red, we might have our differences but you have been nothing but respectful to me and I do admire that about you.
 

Serveto

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... I have to question who’s side Red’s on when he starts to say don’t upset the muslims when something good seemed to happen to Israel ....
Question away, if you must, but you are the one who, in this thread, is turning the discussion of ideas into yet another mud wrestling competition between Muslims and Christians, and now, it seems, Christians and Christians.

Christian Zionism -the title and subject of this thread- is an ideology, a political movement, in especially America which seriously affects international politics, not just Muslims, and this is proven by the fact that not only America's secular allies in the UN Security Council, but also Pope Francis is reacting, and negatively, I might add, to President Trump's "unilateral" and illegal moves. Not everything fits your simplistic Muslim vs. Christian dichotomy and paradigm.
 
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Lisa

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I'm not going to argue with you, Lisa. You are no more accountable to me than I am to you. You know your heart and the spirit in which you say things. I know mine. Both of us are inclined to get annoyed when we get misunderstood and mis-represented. I gain nothing from throwing people under busses.

Best left here. Sensitive topic, polarised views, frayed tempers and text being pretty low grade communication. If I have offended you, I apologise.
If you have offended me? Ok, I am sure if you had offended some of those other people you would be apologizing to them profusely, in order that they see you as a a wonderful guy so you could still try to persuade them? But if you’ve offended me you’re sorry? Is that even a real apology?

This isn’t about the topic necessarily, this is about how you are treating me just so you can brown nose others, glad they think your awesome...
 

Lisa

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Question away, if you must, but you are the one who, in this thread, is turning the discussion of ideas into yet another mud wrestling competition between Muslims and Christians, and now, it seems, Christians and Christians.

Christian Zionism -the title and subject of this thread- is an ideology, a political movement, in especially America which seriously affects international politics, not just Muslims, and this is proven by the fact that not only America's secular allies in the UN Security Council, but also Pope Francis is reacting, and negatively, I might add, to President Trump's "unilateral" and illegal moves. Not everything fits your simplistic Muslim vs. Christian dichotomy and paradigm.
What is illegal about what trump did?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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If you have offended me? Ok, I am sure if you had offended some of those other people you would be apologizing to them profusely, in order that they see you as a a wonderful guy so you could still try to persuade them? But if you’ve offended me you’re sorry? Is that even a real apology?

This isn’t about the topic necessarily, this is about how you are treating me just so you can brown nose others, glad they think your awesome...
God bless you, Lisa. I am sorry for commenting on your thread.

If more people (including me on this occasion) heeded the advice of Proverbs 26:17 we would have shorter threads on this forum.

"Whoever meddles in a quarrel not his own is like one who takes a passing dog by the ears."
 

Serveto

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What is illegal about what trump did?
You might consider reading the link I provided in this {click here} post. If you don't care to do that, search the lively discussions presently underway concerning UN Security Resolution 478, which involves the legality, or, rather, illegality, of unilateral, or one-sided, attempts to annex especially East Jerusalem. It is to that resolution, and others of its type, that Pope Francis and others, especially our allies, refer when they say "status quo," or legal situation as it is.
 
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Serveto

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I am sorry for commenting on your {Lisa's} thread.
Not to interrupt, but how can this be considered "Lisa's" thread? I wanted to discuss the ideas, even if this has turned into a mud wrestling contest, and wouldn't have participated had it not been diplomatically presented as open to anybody and everybody, including non-partisans, capable of coming up with one or two, ideas that is.
 
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rainerann

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You help me make a more complex point here Lisa. From our previous conversations, even with our small differences in theology over end times events (I'm pre-trib) or our difference in opinion over OSAS, you find it hard to understand my motives. How much more difficult if I were to come from another culture and have been told and genuinely believe a different version of events to the view you and I do about Israel.

I have never felt like an oppressed minority, but perhaps the closest I might get to it would be going on holiday to a foreign country. Even when nobody is attacking me or arguing with me, I think it is human nature to find (in my case) relief in finding a fellow English speaker and heading to the chip shop together! How much more do "minority politics" come to bear when history, religion, family, role models, anger and grievance all enter the mix?

Why am I saying this? Perhaps because I have come to see this forum as less of a "platform" and more of a conversation with others. If I wouldn't say something face to face in a particular way, neither would I online. If that irritates you, I am sorry.

As for supporting Israel, when I read the vitriol towards anyone who does, and listen to what they think Christian Zionists stand for, these issues are the ones that make people stop listening and start shouting.

I set up this thread with the intention of highlighting the perspective genuinely held by a writer @DesertRose had cited. There is a thread elsewhere on this forum that asks what you imagine people might look like. To the people themselves, the gap might appear amusing!

In the same way, the gap between what the majority of this forum thinks both about Israel and Christian Zionists, and the reality, is very wide. Sometimes doing the opposite of what someone expects makes them listen to the real issues and helps prevent us from treating others (and being treated) as mere puppets.

The treatment of this Muslim woman in Israel was an interesting example.


As far as Jerusalem being the legitimate Capitol of Israel, this short historical round-up will give you some idea as to my beliefs about the modern state.


When you look at world events, this is where I believe we are right now.

You make a good point red and the videos were interesting especially the one with the Muslim woman. However, I couldn’t help noticing that even though she presented a message that was more recieved, she was alienating herself in the process. However, we didn’t get to see the response of her Muslim counterparts to her message that the Jews were welcome in Israel from her perspective.

So inevitably, we do cluster together based on certain features that separate from other people. This can’t be avoided most of the time. However, we should not let this reality cause us to insult other people. :)
 

SpektaCoolAir

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You might consider reading the link I provided in this post. If you don't care to do that, and if you would educate yourself, search the lively discussions presently underway concerning UN Security Resolution 478, which involves the legality, or, rather, illegality, of unilateral, or one-sided, attempts to annex especially East Jerusalem. It is to that resolution, and others of its type, that Pope Francis and others, especially our allies, refer when they say "status quo," or legal situation as it is.
now i gotta jump in for her.

you definitely expect too much of her here.

clicking on a link? reading something beneficial & educational?

how dare you expect her to do so!

she is already overchallenged with the brief but very authentic piece you have written.

all she understood is "israel is bad" - that's all she gets - anything else is going into a filter like "not important - i don't care - eh what? oh there is it israel is bad - now i can respond".
 

Lisa

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God bless you, Lisa. I am sorry for commenting on your thread.

If more people (including me on this occasion) heeded the advice of Proverbs 26:17 we would have shorter threads on this forum.

"Whoever meddles in a quarrel not his own is like one who takes a passing dog by the ears."
You go from I’m sorry IF I offended you to sorry I commented? Wow! Gotta save face with the others? It wasn’t you commenting, anyone can comment, it’s what you did to throw me under the bus....
 

SpektaCoolAir

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You go from I’m sorry IF I offended you to sorry I commented? Wow! Gotta save face with the others? It wasn’t you commenting, anyone can comment, it’s what you did to throw me under the bus....
you really need to get some serious help (consider that brain thing though)!

the man was trying to be as polite as possible (a lot would have snapped already) & you are trying to twist his intention & make it a conspiracy against you.

you are a total mess!
 

rainerann

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You go from I’m sorry IF I offended you to sorry I commented? Wow! Gotta save face with the others? It wasn’t you commenting, anyone can comment, it’s what you did to throw me under the bus....
Lisa, relax. Red has the gift of patience. I guarentee you he wasn't trying to throw you under the bus. He is much too patient and kind to have that kind of motivation. Patient people help others heal. They are valuable.

I also think it is valuable to have people who are willing to speak out without fear like @Daciple was saying. You are someone I would call fearless. I say let Red be Red and you can be you Lisa. We are all in this together in Christ so there is no need to be offended by encouraging each other to improve our witness. ;)
 

Karlysymon

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Why do Protestant and Evangelical Christians generally hold this unwavering support for Israel while Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Christians vary in their support for Israel?
It is blind support. A sort of indulgence sold to evangelicals. 'Bless Abraham's descendants' and God will you pay back in kind. The political establishment has been kind enough to bestow the blessing (to further their M.E agenda), hence buttressing the belief. They need televangelists to sell their policies/white papers as prophecies :D ,to dampen opposition to illegal wars. Just my pov
 
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