Christian Zionism Discussed

[Lisa]

Lisa, you presume to know things about me that you really don't! Truthfully as a child I was very put off by aggressive street preachers and shouty types generally. I try to imagine others being every bit as "real" as me. Perhaps this makes me try to too hard at diplomacy. Diplomatic people can be wrongly interpreted as weak, (or perhaps turning it upside town, you might be tempted to say that weak people try diplomacy to avoid conflict!).

To the point, we are at a critical time in history. None of us know just how critical but it is not a time for indecision or in-fighting. I watched two clips earlier, one by Palastinian preacher, JD Farag, the other by Amir Tsarfati. If you want to know what I see on the horizon, check them out...

What I know about you is what I’ve been reading in your posts. You explained why you go out of your way to avoid conflict, thanks that helps a little.

I don’t know that it makes you look weak, but you do look wishy washy to me and I don’t really care for it. I don’t like when you come in and cover over what I’ve said to make sure that you smooth over any ruffled feathers.

Since, we are sharing...ever since my first post the muslims here have argued over what I’ve said. I didn’t start anything, I thought I was coming to have conversations and do just what you think you are doing...but no, you see, if you don’t agree with them then they are the ones attacking everyting you say. I guess you don’t notice that do you? So, I do care that they know Jesus and I do try very hard to be polite and kind when I talk about Him and the Good News, but I’m not going to mince words so they like me better and maybe someday they might change their minds because I was a less offensive Christian to them. Because being less offensive means watering down the gospel. Watering down what I believe, how is that helping anything then?

I can take that that is what they believe and I can be sad that they believe it, but why should I be ashamed of the gospel or Israel in the process?

 

[Lisa]

Nice of you to say, KM - I don't want to get into a popularity contest though!!! One thing I have learned from this forum is how different from one another we all are. We all extrapolate from our own experience in trying to understand others. Perhaps for @Lisa, she would have never come to faith unless a fiery, straight talker had given her the Gospel with both barrels. For me, I might never have understood the message without the change in character I saw in my dad. As a little kid, he went from angry, resentful and depressed to gentle, patient and happy. It was his nature that started me listening to what he said and got me wondering why he had changed and who he had met ...

There are many ways to come to Christ, but isn’t it the Holy Spririt the one who helps those to believe? We are the ones who tell people. I’m not giving anyone both barrels but you.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

There are many ways to come to Christ, but isn’t it the Holy Spririt the one who helps those to believe? We are the ones who tell people. I’m not giving anyone both barrels but you.

In the spirit of Romans 14, God bless you Lisa.

 

[Vytas]

You can't show holly spirit online to a muslim though, other Christians will recognize it in you, but only christians...You can make a convert from atheist online, you will never make a convert of muslim online. Avoiding confrontation has other pros though RSAM strikes me as someone who is naturally that way not because he is afraid...And nobody is forcing us to take uncompromising position. We do as we please, there is no forum rule that would say "you always must write your opinion and disclose your real feelings".

 

[DesertRose]

.ever since my first post the muslims here have argued over what I’ve said. I didn’t start anything, I thought I was coming to have conversations and do just what you think you are doing...but no, you see, if you don’t agree with them then they are the ones attacking everyting you say. I guess you don’t notice that do you?

Right the moral of the story Red is be offensive like Lisa and claim not to start anything.....works like a charm you have to feel like a Zionist not just be a Christian Zionist.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I watched this advert years ago and it's message stayed with me in all kinds of ways.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

In addition @Lisa - if you wanted me to be truly candid, this one minute clip says everything I have come to think from interacting with Muslims on this forum over the last few months.

Muslims are better than Islam and deserve a better religion. I like them better than their faith. If that makes me a bad guy, shoot me!

 

[Lisa]

In addition @Lisa - if you wanted me to be truly candid, this one minute clip says everything I have come to think from interacting with Muslims on this forum over the last few months.

Muslims are better than Islam and deserve a better religion. I like them better than their faith. If that makes me a bad guy, shoot me!

You like the insulting, personal attacking muslims, really?

 

[Lisa]

Right the moral of the story Red is be offensive like Lisa and claim not to start anything.....works like a charm you have to feel like a Zionist not just be a Christian Zionist.

Well does that little picture go for Palestinians too? Just wondering...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You like the insulting, personal attacking muslims, really?

I feel the love the Lord has towards them @Lisa - I was once a hedonistic enemy of the Gospel and instead of trying to be good, I was focussed on my pleasures and treasures! How can I hate people who are sincere in their desire to find God, even if they are heading in the wrong direction? The sins of Muslims were placed on Jesus too, and he loves them just as much as he loves you and I. There is just as much joy in the presence of the angels in heaven when Uthman or Ahmed turn in faith to the Cross as when Pete or Jenny do.

 

[rainerann]

In addition @Lisa - if you wanted me to be truly candid, this one minute clip says everything I have come to think from interacting with Muslims on this forum over the last few months.

Muslims are better than Islam and deserve a better religion. I like them better than their faith. If that makes me a bad guy, shoot me!

Their organization is one of the most balanced views on the subject. I just love the way they discern and address the root of the problem. He is basically saying that the left interprets the good deeds of Muslims to mean that this is a reflection of the doctrine. So he is supporting people not treat people poorly because the doctrine of Islam is so poor while recognizing that the doctrine does really say what the opposing side has objections with. People go so far in their extreme views on the subject.

They are such a great mediation between the two extremes. I wish more people would listen to their message. He just slices it like a knife. The doctrine of Islam is the problem.

 

[KoncreteMind]

Nice of you to say, KM - I don't want to get into a popularity contest though!!! One thing I have learned from this forum is how different from one another we all are. We all extrapolate from our own experience in trying to understand others. Perhaps for @Lisa, she would have never come to faith unless a fiery, straight talker had given her the Gospel with both barrels. For me, I might never have understood the message without the change in character I saw in my dad. As a little kid, he went from angry, resentful and depressed to gentle, patient and happy. It was his nature that started me listening to what he said and got me wondering why he had changed and who he had met ...

No popularity contests, just being on the VC Forums for quite a bit (and I mean going back years not just this or the last go around) it always seem to revert back to most threads turning into muslims going at christians and vice versa. It just gets annoying after awhile so I just throw my two cents in here and there and go on about my day

So a little bit of cordiality goes at least a little ways

 

[Daciple]

you are less a Christian and more an appeaser.

So if one doesnt subscribe to the view that this State called Israel isnt ordained of God they are not a Christian and instead an appeaser? Is this where Faith and Salvation lie? Is that where YOUR Faith and Salvation lie? What if you find out that Israel is actually False, not ordained by God and Evil? Where is YOUR Faith and Salvation at then?

There is NOTHING in this World in which my Faith is grounded, no person, no Nation, no ideal, no "Fulfillment of Prophecy" absolutely NOTHING. The ONLY thing my Faith is grounded in is Jesus Christ Himself, all people WILL fail me, all Nations WILL fail me, all IDEALS will fail me, all human desire to understand Prophecy WILL fail me, everything in and of this World WILL fail me. What makes me a Christian isnt with what country I say I align myself with, or what person in power I say I stand with or against. No what makes me a Christian is that I believe from my heart that Jesus Christ is God who came to Earth and took my place on the Cross so that by Faith thru Grace Salvation has been offered to me.

That is the ONLY qualification, nothing else, not whether I support Israel, or America or not, not whether I abide by any certain Eschatology or not, none of that matters at all. Let me say this, the Lord lead me to a Church that teaches amillennialism, it is a drastic change in terms of Eschatology than what I was raised in which was the standard Pre Trib Pre Millennial ideology. As I began to study Eschatology on apart from anything any person came to tell me, I began to see the Pros and Cons of each ideology. And now being in a Church that teaches a completely different perspective I have struggled concerning what I should accept as the Truth.

There was somethings that happened a few weeks back at Church that truly began to get me to think about all these positions again and I began to study these ideologies out renewed, and as I was study I began to earnestly pray over it, I was seriously torn up about it. As I prayed God spoke to my heart and said 2 things, first and foremost He said, name 1 person that knew exactly how I was going to come the first time. I ask all of you who are into Eschatology and especially those who wish to pin Salvation or desire to label someone a Christian or not, name me ONE person who understood exactly how Jesus was going to fulfill Prophecies in His first coming?

When I go back and read Scripture it tells me that not one single person, not even John the Baptist who proclaimed Jesus the Lamb of God, not even Peter or any of the disciples understood or knew how it was that Jesus was going to fulfill prophecies. It says that Jesus would tell them plainly that He would die and resurrect and yet they still couldnt comprehend what Jesus meant or how He would do such a thing!!! Yet we somehow want to try and pin Jesus into this or that ideology of how He MUST act and what He MUST do when He comes the 2nd time!!

How sure are you about these things? I for one am willing to tell you I am not sure exactly how He is going to come back and exactly what it is that will happen when He does and exactly what is going to happen after He does. The only thing I am 100% sure on is, Jesus IS coming back, that is it. I have other thoughts about what could or could not happen, but what I think doesnt matter only what Jesus does, and just like His First coming anyone who tells you that they KNOW what is going to happen for certain are lying, they dont, probably not at all...

The 2nd thing the Lord spoke to me about concerning this was, does it really matter? How much time are you going to spend following this or that ideal, this or that belief, this or that interpretation? Can you possible know for certain what it is that I am going to do? If not then why spend such an incredible amount of time on it? There is REAL work that needs to be done!!!! How much time you have spent studying this or that and being hurt or upset or feeling superior to others? The answer is quite alot, then He brought to mind just how fruitless that truly was and what other things I could have been studying or doing, such as praying or learning more about Him or how to overcome Sin or work for the Church ect ect ect.

I think Eschatology is interesting, I have enjoyed the debates and study of all the different ideals and after over 10 years of learning studying and debating about it, I have come to the conclusion that I will never know for certain what Jesus is going to do when He comes back, and neither does anyone else, its all speculation. I believe my time and probably others time is better served preaching what we DO know which is the Cross and Christ Crucified!!!

If you think the adherence to a certain Eschatology in anyway defines a person as a Christian then you have little to no understanding of Salvation and Christ IMO....

 

[Lisa]

I feel the love the Lord has towards them @Lisa - I was once a hedonistic enemy of the Gospel and instead of trying to be good, I was focussed on my pleasures and treasures! How can I hate people who are sincere in their desire to find God, even if they are heading in the wrong direction? The sins of Muslims were placed on Jesus too, and he loves them just as much as he loves you and I. There is just as much joy in the presence of the angels in heaven when Uthman or Ahmed turn in faith to the Cross as when Pete or Jenny do.

No doubt God rejoices in anyone being saved. However, that’s not what I’m talking about with you.

You seemed to go out of your way and imply for me to not say anything more because it could upset them, like i

So if one doesnt subscribe to the view that this State called Israel isnt ordained of God they are not a Christian and instead an appeaser? Is this where Faith and Salvation lie? Is that where YOUR Faith and Salvation lie? What if you find out that Israel is actually False, not ordained by God and Evil? Where is YOUR Faith and Salvation at then?

There is NOTHING in this World in which my Faith is grounded, no person, no Nation, no ideal, no "Fulfillment of Prophecy" absolutely NOTHING. The ONLY thing my Faith is grounded in is Jesus Christ Himself, all people WILL fail me, all Nations WILL fail me, all IDEALS will fail me, all human desire to understand Prophecy WILL fail me, everything in and of this World WILL fail me. What makes me a Christian isnt with what country I say I align myself with, or what person in power I say I stand with or against. No what makes me a Christian is that I believe from my heart that Jesus Christ is God who came to Earth and took my place on the Cross so that by Faith thru Grace Salvation has been offered to me.

That is the ONLY qualification, nothing else, not whether I support Israel, or America or not, not whether I abide by any certain Eschatology or not, none of that matters at all. Let me say this, the Lord lead me to a Church that teaches amillennialism, it is a drastic change in terms of Eschatology than what I was raised in which was the standard Pre Trib Pre Millennial ideology. As I began to study Eschatology on apart from anything any person came to tell me, I began to see the Pros and Cons of each ideology. And now being in a Church that teaches a completely different perspective I have struggled concerning what I should accept as the Truth.

There was somethings that happened a few weeks back at Church that truly began to get me to think about all these positions again and I began to study these ideologies out renewed, and as I was study I began to earnestly pray over it, I was seriously torn up about it. As I prayed God spoke to my heart and said 2 things, first and foremost He said, name 1 person that knew exactly how I was going to come the first time. I ask all of you who are into Eschatology and especially those who wish to pin Salvation or desire to label someone a Christian or not, name me ONE person who understood exactly how Jesus was going to fulfill Prophecies in His first coming?

When I go back and read Scripture it tells me that not one single person, not even John the Baptist who proclaimed Jesus the Lamb of God, not even Peter or any of the disciples understood or knew how it was that Jesus was going to fulfill prophecies. It says that Jesus would tell them plainly that He would die and resurrect and yet they still couldnt comprehend what Jesus meant or how He would do such a thing!!! Yet we somehow want to try and pin Jesus into this or that ideology of how He MUST act and what He MUST do when He comes the 2nd time!!

How sure are you about these things? I for one am willing to tell you I am not sure exactly how He is going to come back and exactly what it is that will happen when He does and exactly what is going to happen after He does. The only thing I am 100% sure on is, Jesus IS coming back, that is it. I have other thoughts about what could or could not happen, but what I think doesnt matter only what Jesus does, and just like His First coming anyone who tells you that they KNOW what is going to happen for certain are lying, they dont, probably not at all...

The 2nd thing the Lord spoke to me about concerning this was, does it really matter? How much time are you going to spend following this or that ideal, this or that belief, this or that interpretation? Can you possible know for certain what it is that I am going to do? If not then why spend such an incredible amount of time on it? There is REAL work that needs to be done!!!! How much time you have spent studying this or that and being hurt or upset or feeling superior to others? The answer is quite alot, then He brought to mind just how fruitless that truly was and what other things I could have been studying or doing, such as praying or learning more about Him or how to overcome Sin or work for the Church ect ect ect.

I think Eschatology is interesting, I have enjoyed the debates and study of all the different ideals and after over 10 years of learning studying and debating about it, I have come to the conclusion that I will never know for certain what Jesus is going to do when He comes back, and neither does anyone else, its all speculation. I believe my time and probably others time is better served preaching what we DO know which is the Cross and Christ Crucified!!!

If you think the adherence to a certain Eschatology in anyway defines a person as a Christian then you have little to no understanding of Salvation and Christ IMO....

Thats not what this was about. I have to question who’s side Red’s on when he starts to say don’t upset the muslims when something good seemed to happen to Israel. When I tried to ask him about it he comes back with an off track remark...that’s why I’m irritated with him.

 

[elsbet]

Shel Silverstein, anyone?

 

[Daciple]

. I have to question who’s side Red’s on when he starts to say don’t upset the muslims when something good seemed to happen to Israel.

The man preaches the Gospel, affirms Christ as his Lord and Savior, who cares about his stance on Israel!! I call Israel a false state, does that in anyway nullify my Faith and Testimony? I think not...

I cant speak for his intentions, but I think there is a place for his type of outreach, my type of outreach and your type of outreach. Some people need to be led gently to the Lord, some need to be led by Hellfire and Brimstone, the Lord has given us all talents and gifts to use to work and increase His Kingdom. I personally havent seen anything that makes me wonder what side he is on...

 

[Vytas]

The man preaches the Gospel, affirms Christ as his Lord and Savior, who cares about his stance on Israel!! I call Israel a false state, does that in anyway nullify my Faith and Testimony? I think not...

Finally some common sense...It's easy to forget what really matters...

 

[Serveto]

Who is caught up in trump saying that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel? How does that even change the day to day lives of the people in that area? Doesn’t life just go on as normal for them, well after they calm down and stop protesting that is?

No. That is one reason why America's allies, from Sweden, to England, France and Italy went on record, at the UN Security Council meeting hurriedly convened to discuss the issue, to both voice and officially record their objections to Trump's moves. They consider it a violation of international law. To their view, and I watched the proceedings almost in their entirety, the Trump Administration is illegally acting "unilaterally," or one-sidedly, in an attempt to sort of annex Jerusalem for Israel alone, thus steamrolling the so called "two-state solution" for which they were all -including the USA until now- working and legislating. It certainly will affect those on the ground in Jerusalem and beyond, which is why Dr. Ashrawi's and other viewpoints are well worth not only hearing but also considering.

@Daciple, may you, sometime, get at least a five-minute speaking slot on either the Trinity or Christian Broadcasting Network. Although, if you were to get a slot and be able to speak, their broadcasting license would probably be immediately repealed by the FCC. In the main, alternative views to standard "party line" Christian Zionism don't seem much appreciated.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

No doubt God rejoices in anyone being saved. However, that’s not what I’m talking about with you.

You seemed to go out of your way and imply for me to not say anything more because it could upset them, like i

Thats not what this was about. I have to question who’s side Red’s on when he starts to say don’t upset the muslims when something good seemed to happen to Israel. When I tried to ask him about it he comes back with an off track remark...that’s why I’m irritated with him.

You help me make a more complex point here Lisa. From our previous conversations, even with our small differences in theology over end times events (I'm pre-trib) or our difference in opinion over OSAS, you find it hard to understand my motives. How much more difficult if I were to come from another culture and have been told and genuinely believe a different version of events to the view you and I do about Israel.

I have never felt like an oppressed minority, but perhaps the closest I might get to it would be going on holiday to a foreign country. Even when nobody is attacking me or arguing with me, I think it is human nature to find (in my case) relief in finding a fellow English speaker and heading to the chip shop together! How much more do "minority politics" come to bear when history, religion, family, role models, anger and grievance all enter the mix?

Why am I saying this? Perhaps because I have come to see this forum as less of a "platform" and more of a conversation with others. If I wouldn't say something face to face in a particular way, neither would I online. If that irritates you, I am sorry.

As for supporting Israel, when I read the vitriol towards anyone who does, and listen to what they think Christian Zionists stand for, these issues are the ones that make people stop listening and start shouting.

I set up this thread with the intention of highlighting the perspective genuinely held by a writer @DesertRose had cited. There is a thread elsewhere on this forum that asks what you imagine people might look like. To the people themselves, the gap might appear amusing!

In the same way, the gap between what the majority of this forum thinks both about Israel and Christian Zionists, and the reality, is very wide. Sometimes doing the opposite of what someone expects makes them listen to the real issues and helps prevent us from treating others (and being treated) as mere puppets.

The treatment of this Muslim woman in Israel was an interesting example.

As far as Jerusalem being the legitimate Capitol of Israel, this short historical round-up will give you some idea as to my beliefs about the modern state.

When you look at world events, this is where I believe we are right now.

 

[Lisa]

You help me make a more complex point here Lisa. From our previous conversations, even with our small differences in theology over end times events (I'm pre-trib) or our difference in opinion over OSAS, you find it hard to understand my motives. How much more difficult if I were to come from another culture and have been told and genuinely believe a different version of events to the view you and I do about Israel.

I have never felt like an oppressed minority, but perhaps the closest I might get to it would be going on holiday to a foreign country. Even when nobody is attacking me or arguing with me, I think it is human nature to find (in my case) relief in finding a fellow English speaker and heading to the chip shop together! How much more do "minority politics" come to bear when history, religion, family, role models, anger and grievance all enter the mix?

Why am I saying this? Perhaps because I have come to see this forum as less of a "platform" and more of a conversation with others. If I wouldn't say something face to face in a particular way, neither would I online. If that irritates you, I am sorry.

As for supporting Israel, when I read the vitriol towards anyone who does, and listen to what they think Christian Zionists stand for, these issues are the ones that make people stop listening and start shouting.

I set up this thread with the intention of highlighting the perspective genuinely held by a writer @DesertRose had cited. There is a thread elsewhere on this forum that asks what you imagine people might look like. To the people themselves, the gap might appear amusing!

In the same way, the gap between what the majority of this forum thinks both about Israel and Christian Zionists, and the reality, is very wide. Sometimes doing the opposite of what someone expects makes them listen to the real issues and helps prevent us from treating others (and being treated) as mere puppets.

The treatment of this Muslim woman in Israel was an interesting example.

As far as Jerusalem being the legitimate Capitol of Israel, this short historical round-up will give you some idea as to my beliefs about the modern state.

When you look at world events, this is where I believe we are right now.

I don’t mind you trying to reach the lost, but why must you throw me under the bus to do it? Is that what you would do in real life?

I don’t go out if my way to offend anyone but I am happy for Israel which shouldn’t offend anyone but ends up offending the muslims, I can’t help that. But when you imply that I am wrong about being happy for Israel or that I’m somehow trying to irritate and then get all pc to not irritate people who may or may not be swayed by you seems like a slap in the face to me. And now you are going to preach to me?