Ransom to Whom?

Joined
Mar 17, 2017
Messages
2,342
So heres the ridiculous debate tactic of Yahda and KM basically, look at these 5-10 Scriptures that look like they negate Sacrifices (but in Context they dont). See Sacrifice doesnt mean that much to God.
"The one who sinned against me is the one who I will blot out of my book"

Cant get anymore clearer than this....

In following along with this line of debate, here are 270 times God calls for Sacrifice in the Old Testament, 5-10 being what Yadha and KM have quoted, clearly Sacrifice is important to God...

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=sacrifice&begin=1&end=46
Now sometime, we'll eventually get to you discussing the other ways of atoning for sin that didnt include blood.
 

Kung Fu

Superstar
Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
5,087
What does seem to be Rocket Science for you or anyone else on this thread to grasp is the actual question no one is answering and the essence of everything she has said, which is also what I have written about extensively. I dont expect you to acknowledge it in an intellectually honesty way because you never seem capable of doing that when speaking with Christians, but the basic premise both her and I are speaking about is the essential aspect of Substitutionary Atonement as practiced in the Temple by the Jews for 1000's of years. This is a Historical and Biblical Fact that Islam nor any other Religious Ideology incorporates into its underlying tenets.

If Islam was actually a follow up to the Religion of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses and all the other Patriarchs, if Islam was the Worship of YHWH their God then it stands as not only reason but simple fact that the aspect most central to their Culture as mandated by YHWH, which is Sacrifice for Sin, aka Blood Atonement, would be somehow dealt with or at the very very minimum spoken about, however in Islam as you so joyfully show, it has no concept or place. It is as tho the god of Islam cares not about Blood Atonement, whereas the God of Israel, the Patriarchs, of Jesus 100% cares about Blood Atonement considering all the Patriarchs practiced Blood Atonement of Sacrifice and YHWH Himself created a Law detailing the purpose of such a thing.

You feint to show that somehow Islam and Judaism have more in common with each other than with Christianity when clearly it doesnt, because if it had ANY semblance of commonality with Judaism it would acknowledge and deal with the necessity of Sacrifice for Sin. Literally the ONLY thing it slightly resembles is the idea of Dietary Law (which they are actually wholly different and no Jew on Earth would eat Halal Food as it is Food prepared to a false god in their eyes) and even then they dont agree on all foods and how they are to be prepared. Thats it, this nonsense about worshiping One God is again willful ignorance as it has been stated a billion times over Christians only Worship One God. In Judaism the act of Sacrifice for Sin is necessary regardless of what KM likes to say in his hypocritical stance of Obedience to the Law aka the same Law that mandates Sacrifice for Sin.

What Karly keeps trying to point out is that the ONE superficial commonality you can point to in Islam (Diet Law which again is actually different between Islam and Judaism which if it was the same God and the follow up of the same God they ought to be IDENTICAL) in no way can compare to the fact that Islam in no way acknowledges the essential ideology of Sacrifice for Sin that was practiced in Israel towards the God of Abraham et al for 1000's of years. As she stated there isnt even a Priesthood mentioned in Islam which again makes zero sense if it is the follow up to Judaism or the God of Abraham that clearly mandates a Priesthood. However in Christianity the most essential doctrines of Judaism are actually dealt with, spoken about and more over are the SAME essential doctrines found in Judaism. The ONLY one that doesnt weigh heavily would be the Dietary Laws, yet that is actually ADDRESSED and spoken of by Christianity vs totally ignore it and then act like it never mattered or exists such as is the case for Islam concerning the most essential doctrine laid out by YHWH.

I wrote a whole big post that you ignored, probably because you helped spark the Gospel going out thru it and I credited you for it, thanks again, that showed just how many animals were Sacrificed in a year just by the state of Israel. The central aspect of Blood Atonement is clearly spelled out not only in the Law of Moses, but also in practice by the State of Israel. Islam and ALL other Religions completely ignore this, however in Christianity this is a central Doctrine just as it was to the Patriarchs. Jesus Christ IS the High Priest, therefore Christianity continues on the ideology of Priesthood as mandated by YHWH the God of Abraham. Jesus Christ IS the Sacrifice, therefore Christianity continues on the ideology of Sacrifice as mandated by YHWH the God of Abraham. Jesus Christ IS the Blood Atonement for Sin, therefore Christianity continues the ideology of Blood Atonement as mandated by YHWH the God of Abraham.

Just as these 3 ideologies were the Central Doctrines of the Religion of Abraham and the Patriarchs so too are these 3 ideologies the Central Doctrines of Christianity, why? Because Christ is the FULFILLMENT of everything spoken of in the Old Testament. We can clearly see that Islam CAN NOT be the follow up to the Religion established by Abraham and the Patriarchs because the god of Islam does NOT care in the least about the thing that was MOST IMPORTANT to the God of Israel, YWHW. YHWH is NOT the god of Islam, and Islam does not worship the God of Israel or the Patriarchs, if it did then 100% there would be inclusion of the systematic influence of Sacrifice for Sin...

YHWH stated that He would send someone to bear the Sin of the World, He created an entire Culture and Nation that put the Sacrifice of the Innocent in place of the Guilty for Redemption of Sin. Every Holy Day of YHWH involves Sacrifice, in fact the MOST HOLIEST DAY of the God of Abraham is 100% founded and revolves around the Sacrifice of the Innocent for the Atonement of Sins!!! Its called Yom Kippour which means what? The Day of ATONEMENT!!! All of the Holy Days point to Christ, everything that happened in the Temple points to Christ, in fact the set up and everything IN the Temple points to Christ, the traditions held during the Holy Days point to Christ, all the Old Testament Scriptures point to Christ, everything having anything to do with the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob all point to Christ coming to be the Final Sacrifice for all of mankind to be the Atonement and the method by which all Sin is purged!!

KM made an argument earlier where he said:

I dont fear being guilty because God didnt set up for me a pries t,temple

Heres the problem with his own argument and one in which he will have to acknowledge one day, hopefully while he is still alive. If God has set up a Priest for Him in a Temple that made Sacrifices on his behalf and he rejected the Priest, the Temple and the Sacrifice, well then he is guilty. The facts are God has set up a Priest for him, He set one up for you and me and everyone else. God also set up a Temple, one made without hands, for him and you and me. And that Priest has made a Sacrifice on his behalf, and my and your behalf as well.

Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Jesus IS his High Priest, and mine and yours...

Heb 6:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Jesus IS the Sacrifice for his your and mine Sin...

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Jesus entered into the Holiest of Holies in the Temple in Heaven and placed the Blood on the Altar for the Redemption of Sin for him, and for you and for I as well!!! If you understand the most Holiest Day in Israel, the Day of ATONEMENT, then you would understand just how significant what it is that Scriptures is saying here. During the Day of ATONEMENT, the High Priest who NEVER could enter into the Holiest of Holies would go on that day and that day ALONE to sprinkle Blood on the Mercy Seat for the ATONEMENT of everyone. Jesus Himself entered into the REAL Holiest of Holies in Heave and He Himself applied the Blood for the ATONEMENT of everyone!! Praise the Lord!!!

So the reality of the sitituation is that KM does have a High Priest who did come and did present a Sacrifice and placed the Blood of the Sacrifice upon the Altar for his Atonement, and just as KM knows if he rejected the High Priest doing such a thing during the temple era he would be guilty before God, so too it stands that since all has been done in accordance with the Law by the High Priest in the Temple then since he rejects it he now stands guilty before God. That also goes for you too Kung Fu and every other person on Earth who rejects the Offering given for them.

The Good News is that EVERYONE has the opportunity to accept the Atonement that was made for them, they dont have to have certain linage, they dont have to be some person of prestige, they dont have to try and work for it by doing this or that Religious Task, that you know you cant keep up forever, every day, you dont have to do anything at all other than acknowledge that you are a Sinner in need of Redemption and call out by Faith and Believe in Christ that He has done just what He said He would do for you!!!

That He has done everything the Old Testament said He would come to do, that He would fulfill what the ENTIRE CULTURE OF ISRAEL was founded around, which is that He came to die on the Cross to take upon Himself all the Wrath you and I deserve and that He became the Perfect Lamb that was Sacrificed on the Cross and that He Himself went into Heaven into the Holiest of Hoilies and placed the Blood upon the Altar and He has made ATONEMENT for you and I and everyone else!!! Praise the Lord, Jesus is so Great and Wonderful, Jesus is so loving, I am so very thankful for Christ and knowing without a DOUBT that all of Sins are Forgiven!!!!

All of you can have that same assurance today!!! All of you can experience the wonderful joy of a knowing you will never go to Hell because of what Christ did for you!!! All of you can experience and know first hand the One True God and enter into a Personal Relationship with Him today, where you can cry out to Him and know He has literally experienced everything you are going thru Himself!!! That God isnt some far off God looking down to far out of reach to understand exactly the temptations you are facing, and how to overcome them. That God isnt so far off that He cant understand the fear you are plagued with at times in life, that He cant truly know the evils of the World that beset you!!!

I hope someone truly begins to search out Christ in their lives to understand His great Love and come to have that Personal Relationship today, there is nothing better in life that knowing Jesus Christ as your Personal Savior!!! I know Him and more importantly I know He knows me, because He called me by name the day He saved me!!! Thank you Jesus!!!!
Look at this wall of text. You're doing it again where you're typing a lot but not really saying anything.

Sacrificing a human and goat are two very different things buddy. And by the way I have answered Karly. You guys just don't like the answer because your man god is limited to sacrifices of HUMANS whereas Muslims and Israelites believe that the Most High is above sacrifices and that the only thing that allows to reach Him is through the believe of ONE God and through obeying Him.

Muslims perform animal sacrifices but for a very different reason (and even then it's not necessary). Accordingly, it is understood that the real aim of sacrificing an animal is to fulfill the order of the Most High and show that one fears Him. It means we can sacrifice even our most valuable things if He asks us.
 
Last edited:

Kung Fu

Superstar
Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
5,087
No I didn’t read it. No offense. I NEVER read your post. They are always too long.

I know the truth is simple and does not take 5000 word count responses. Simply “precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little” in complete context.
I always start off reading what he has to say but when I've read several sentences in and see it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I just stop reading because there's no point in continuing. I think he plays this tactic on purpose in order for it to look like people have given up and he's won but if he does believe that he's not too bright.
 

Karlysymon

Superstar
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Messages
6,722
I like how you Christians never answered the question.

Why would God need a ransom paid to Himself if he loved mankind so much? Doesn't needing a ransom defeat the purpose of Him loving us so much and being omnipotent?
i haven't properly gone through this thread but after i do, i promise to get back to you.
 

Karlysymon

Superstar
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Messages
6,722
I like how you Christians never answered the question.

Why would God need a ransom paid to Himself if he loved mankind so much? Doesn't needing a ransom defeat the purpose of Him loving us so much and being omnipotent?

Why would the Father
need a ransom to be paid
to Himself when he
could've have just forgiven each and every one of us
without having to send His
Son and have him
humiliated and tortured?
Okay, my promised response.
Solid answers to your question were provided in the first 2 pages. So I'll just put them all together...

I think Islam over simplifies the problem of rebellion but from the Christian pov, it's alot more complicated. You can't just transgress God's moral Law, say 'iam sorry', and go your merry way.

Transgression of the Law demanded the life of the transgressor because the act transforms you into His sworn enemy. Meaning, Adam and Eve had to be zapped into nothingness. But God is a God of justice and mercy, and justice demands the aggrieved party be compensated. In His great mercy, He spared the lives of our first parents but the debt incurred had to be paid. The claims of the Law had to be met. And since no one was able to pay that debt, not man nor angels, God took it upon Himself to meet the claims of His own Law. (psalm 49:7-9)

He wasn't willing to lose His own creation. Btw, He could have destroyed Adam and Eve right away and replaced them with a brand new couple. But there's the little problem of free-will. The brand new couple would still have to use their free-will to choose either rebellion or loyalty.

All this shows the seriousness of the problem of sin/rebellion and the fact that the Moral Law is eternal, as Himself, and cannot be abrogated. The fact that the cross became the ultimate solution testifies to magnitude of the problem, that called for it, in the first place.

Christ's death (the Ransom) was not only about redeeming man (sold himself into slavery to sin) but also taking back much of what he lost after the Fall. The cross accomplished so much and i can't go into that now but will expand on these two points: Adam lost the privilege of speaking face to face with God, aswell as representing himself in heaven. 'Iam sorry' wasn't going to buy that back. Christ's taking on human-nature through Mary, He overcame sin and won back the privilege for Adam's posterity. Through Him, we, in a way, speak face to face with God. He's also our representative. Before the cross, Satan was our representative (Job 1&2) in heaven because in Eden, Adam chose him over God, to be his leader. Adam's dominion and all that entailed, he dropped that into Satan's lap.

One could argue that maybe the Ransom was paid to Satan. Christ's own life was the ransom, clearly something Satan wasn't interested in. All he wanted was his own kingdom with subjects. Which is something he had, since the Fall, but then lost.

Hope that helps!
 

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
13,930
Okay, my promised response.
Solid answers to your question were provided in the first 2 pages. So I'll just put them all together...

I think Islam over simplifies the problem of rebellion but from the Christian pov, it's alot more complicated. You can't just transgress God's moral Law, say 'iam sorry', and go your merry way.

Transgression of the Law demanded the life of the transgressor because the act transforms you into His sworn enemy. Meaning, Adam and Eve had to be zapped into nothingness. But God is a God of justice and mercy, and justice demands the aggrieved party be compensated. In His great mercy, He spared the lives of our first parents but the debt incurred had to be paid. The claims of the Law had to be met. And since no one was able to pay that debt, not man nor angels, God took it upon Himself to meet the claims of His own Law. (psalm 49:7-9)

He wasn't willing to lose His own creation. Btw, He could have destroyed Adam and Eve right away and replaced them with a brand new couple. But there's the little problem of free-will. The brand new couple would still have to use their free-will to choose either rebellion or loyalty.

All this shows the seriousness of the problem of sin/rebellion and the fact that the Moral Law is eternal, as Himself, and cannot be abrogated. The fact that the cross became the ultimate solution testifies to magnitude of the problem, that called for it, in the first place.

Christ's death (the Ransom) was not only about redeeming man (sold himself into slavery to sin) but also taking back much of what he lost after the Fall. The cross accomplished so much and i can't go into that now but will expand on these two points: Adam lost the privilege of speaking face to face with God, aswell as representing himself in heaven. 'Iam sorry' wasn't going to buy that back. Christ's taking on human-nature through Mary, He overcame sin and won back the privilege for Adam's posterity. Through Him, we, in a way, speak face to face with God. He's also our representative. Before the cross, Satan was our representative (Job 1&2) in heaven because in Eden, Adam chose him over God, to be his leader. Adam's dominion and all that entailed, he dropped that into Satan's lap.

One could argue that maybe the Ransom was paid to Satan. Christ's own life was the ransom, clearly something Satan wasn't interested in. All he wanted was his own kingdom with subjects. Which is something he had, since the Fall, but then lost.

Hope that helps!
Well it made a lot of sense to me anyway ;-)
 

Daciple

Star
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
1,157
Then you accuse me of cherry picking scriptures,......... scriptures that PROVED MY POINT......that it is more important to OBEY,.......not you used those same scriptures to prove the point I had already made, yet you acted as if you had really disproved me. When in actuality you just reiterated what I said. Wow !

That’s why I never trust 5000 word counts. It’s screams deception.
Here since you cant be bothered to read over a paragraph or else it is deception (because Books and Essays are all deception apparently in your mind) you make the claim that obedience is more important than Sacrifice, but the actual verse you would pull that from DOESNT ACTUALLY SAY THAT!!! Its all relative to CONTEXT, Saul took the Animals and the best things for himself and lied and said he was going to Sacrifice them when he was caught by Samuel having them. Then Samuel says it would be better that you obey the Command of God TO KILL EVERYTHING than to break that Command in order to make a Sacrifice. Pretty simple to see that you took that out of Context, the same thing is to be said in every example you stated. Nothing you quoted ACTUALLY BACKS UP YOUR THEORY that Sacrifices are not that big of deal.

Plus lets not forget the ridiculously hypocritical stance you are taking and the anti-logic you are using to keep saying its better to obey than sacrifice, does the Law Command Sacrifice for Sin? Yes it does, thus it better for you to OBEY THE LAW TO SACRIFICE FOR SIN than make inane arguments against the need to Sacrifice, otherwise your a hypocrite period...

Is that too much writing? Need less?

You are a hypocrite, the Law says Sacrifice so OBEY IT...
 

Kung Fu

Superstar
Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
5,087
I think Islam over simplifies the problem of rebellion but from the Christian pov, it's alot more complicated. You can't just transgress God's moral Law, say 'iam sorry', and go your merry way.
I wrote a whole response and then I deleted it by accident. This new response is a lot shorter but gets to the point regardless. You say 'you can't just trangress God's moral Law and say I'm sorry' and I say if He's Just and Merciful why not?

Transgression of the Law demanded the life of the transgressor because the act transforms you into His sworn enemy. Meaning, Adam and Eve had to be zapped into nothingness. But God is a God of justice and mercy, and justice demands the aggrieved party be compensated. In His great mercy, He spared the lives of our first parents but the debt incurred had to be paid. The claims of the Law had to be met. And since no one was able to pay that debt, not man nor angels, God took it upon Himself to meet the claims of His own Law. (psalm 49:7-9)
How does it make sense that God would create man only for him to inevitably make a mistake and the only thing he can offer is genuine repentance but for it not to be accepted even though God claims to them that He's really merciful?

All this shows the seriousness of the problem of sin/rebellion and the fact that the Moral Law is eternal, as Himself, and cannot be abrogated. The fact that the cross became the ultimate solution testifies to magnitude of the problem, that called for it, in the first place.
Exactly, otherwise we wouldn't have the Day of Judgement. EVERYONE will be held accountable for their own actions and this is where God's Justice comes in.

Christ's death (the Ransom) was not only about redeeming man (sold himself into slavery to sin) but also taking back much of what he lost after the Fall. The cross accomplished so much and i can't go into that now but will expand on these two points: Adam lost the privilege of speaking face to face with God, aswell as representing himself in heaven. 'Iam sorry' wasn't going to buy that back. Christ's taking on human-nature through Mary, He overcame sin and won back the privilege for Adam's posterity. Through Him, we, in a way, speak face to face with God. He's also our representative. Before the cross, Satan was our representative (Job 1&2) in heaven because in Eden, Adam chose him over God, to be his leader. Adam's dominion and all that entailed, he dropped that into Satan's lap.
A Just and Merciful God wouldn't need a ransom because it's contradictory to Him then being merciful, just, and all powerful. Now I'm really confused. Why would Satan, a creation that is entirely separate from us humans, be our representative?

One could argue that maybe the Ransom was paid to Satan. Christ's own life was the ransom, clearly something Satan wasn't interested in. All he wanted was his own kingdom with subjects. Which is something he had, since the Fall, but then lost.

Hope that helps!
No offense but this sounds absolutely ridiculous. What you just said makes it looks like Satan has the power to negotiate with God with the sin of Adam(pbuh) being his bargaining chips.

This is the main problem with a ransom. If God truly needed a ransom then He's not All-Powerful, He's not All-Merciful, and He's definitely not All-Just. With this all means is God screwed up so bad with His creation that He needed to fix His own mistake and that I do not buy for even a second. Exalted is He.

Thanks for the response Karly nonetheless.
 

Yahda

Veteran
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
711
Here since you cant be bothered to read over a paragraph or else it is deception (because Books and Essays are all deception apparently in your mind) you make the claim that obedience is more important than Sacrifice, but the actual verse you would pull that from DOESNT ACTUALLY SAY THAT!!! Its all relative to CONTEXT, Saul took the Animals and the best things for himself and lied and said he was going to Sacrifice them when he was caught by Samuel having them. Then Samuel says it would be better that you obey the Command of God TO KILL EVERYTHING than to break that Command in order to make a Sacrifice. Pretty simple to see that you took that out of Context, the same thing is to be said in every example you stated. Nothing you quoted ACTUALLY BACKS UP YOUR THEORY that Sacrifices are not that big of deal.

Plus lets not forget the ridiculously hypocritical stance you are taking and the anti-logic you are using to keep saying its better to obey than sacrifice, does the Law Command Sacrifice for Sin? Yes it does, thus it better for you to OBEY THE LAW TO SACRIFICE FOR SIN than make inane arguments against the need to Sacrifice, otherwise your a hypocrite period...

Is that too much writing? Need less?

You are a hypocrite, the Law says Sacrifice so OBEY IT...

There goes that DECEPTION again.

In 1st Samuel 15:3 God told Saul to go strike down the Amalekites and devote them to destruction you must not spare them you are to put them to death. “

V8-9 shows he did otherwise thus meaning he did not OBEY God

V11 God regretted making Saul king. Why ? “ for he has turned away from following me HE HAS NOT CARRIED OUT MY WORD”

The word was to kill everything moving. It had nothing to do with sacrifice because first of all there shouldn’t have been anything alive to sacrifice.

With that being said STOP deceiving people.

V18 The Lord later sent you on a mission and said GO DEVOTE THE AMALEKITES TO DESTRUCTION fight against them until you have exterminated them SO WHY DID YOU NOT OBEY THE VOICE OF THE LORD ?”

As anyone with a brain can see the word OBEY was used in reference to devoting the Amalekites to destruction NOT SACRIFICE. Which goes back to what I said. It is better to obey than to sacrifice. God didn’t tell him to make a sacrifice HE SAID DESTROY.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
3,907
@Red Sky at Morning
I can't read through the entire thread to see what other arguments have been made on both sides. I'll say one thing though
by now, you should already know a lot about my religion...

surely by now you should not be claiming islam is a work based religion. That's a bit like if i claimed christianity is a work based religion, you would read that and think 'whaat?'
That's how us muslims feel reading your post, as it is commonly repeated by christians who should know better.

The reality is that works obviously do matter. If you read the Gospel stories, that is, if you're a little bit honest with yourself, you'll see that Jesus told his disciples

"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Jesus said
And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

islam is a walk in the park in comparison to that.
To Jesus, to even look at someone with lust, or to diss someone, meant you could go to hell. Therefore it was better to take out an eye than to risk going to hell. How come Jesus didn't just say 'no worries, I got you, God's grace and all of that?'


My view is this
Works are necessary for the flesh, to guard it against sin. If you know even some basics of brain chemistry you know that we need a controlled, disciplined life to improve ourselves physically and mentally.


Your view on abel and cain, was just silly. For something to grow, we have to till the soil and plant the seeds, that's our job (works). God takes care of the res (grace)
A shepherd does not sit on his fat ass and let God just handle business. A shepherd has to protect and lead a flock of animal and that's just a simplified statement, in reality it's hard work.
They both rely on works and the grace of God.

Here's the Quran version

[Prophet], tell them the truth about the story of Adam's two sons: each of them offered a sacrifice, and it was accepted from one and not the other. One said, 'I will kill you,' but the other said, 'God only accepts the sacrifice of those who are mindful of Him. If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you. I fear God, the Lord of all worlds, and I would rather you were burdened with my sins as well as yours and became an inhabitant of the Fire: such is the evildoers' reward.' But his soul prompted him to kill his brother: he killed him and became one of the losers. God sent a raven to scratch up the ground and show him how to cover his brother's corpse and he said, 'Woe is me! Could I not have been like this raven and covered up my brother's body?' He became remorseful.


I seriously wonder about you and other christians, you make ignorant statements and then praise each other and claim it's the holy spirit moving you
i think that is offensive tbh, the holy spirit is not the reason you make such ignorant statements, your pride is.

As for Jesus, well......there's nothing in the 'ransom' idea that is a problem for me.
sure, other muslims are arguing that each man pays the price for his own sin...
BUT
Christianity was a spiritual order
ie Jesus the true vine..and each follower, a branch.
In this sense, being part of Jesus Christ's spiritual body.
The crucifixion was the ultimate act of killing our carnal nature..becoming one with Jesus (all of these are sufi concepts) meant you die with him.
His ransom was that he did the deed and all you needed todo was join him spiritually and it's metaphysical effect would reach you.
to me, it means you meditate on Jesus, the ideals of Jesus, until your heart reflects those ideals. The natural proof of those ideals is that you do exactly what he did, you give up all your material attachments and seek only God and live through God.

Jesus said

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am.

where does that leave, every single one of you, but in the arse end of nowhere?
 
Last edited:

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
13,930
@AspiringSoul

No offence taken...

"islam is a walk in the park in comparison to that.
To Jesus, to even look at someone with lust, or to diss someone, meant you could go to hell. Therefore it was better to take out an eye than to risk going to hell. How come Jesus didn't just say 'no worries, I got you, God's grace and all of that?'

As I see it, Islam sets out a difficult but "achievable holiness" whereas Jesus sets the bar at perfection. His disciples said in consternation "who then can be saved" and Jesus enigmatically replied in Matthew 19

"25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

What made it possible was grace through faith in the redemption Jesus provided for each of us. If I have misunderstood Islam and unintentionally missed the concept of grace in it, please accept my apologies.
 

Kung Fu

Superstar
Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
5,087
@AspiringSoul

No offence taken...

"islam is a walk in the park in comparison to that.
To Jesus, to even look at someone with lust, or to diss someone, meant you could go to hell. Therefore it was better to take out an eye than to risk going to hell. How come Jesus didn't just say 'no worries, I got you, God's grace and all of that?'

As I see it, Islam sets out a difficult but "achievable holiness" whereas Jesus sets the bar at perfection. His disciples said in consternation "who then can be saved" and Jesus enigmatically replied in Matthew 19

"25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

What made it possible was grace through faith in the redemption Jesus provided for each of us. If I have misunderstood Islam and unintentionally missed the concept of grace in it, please accept my apologies.
That's how you read it but how I read it is that a man cannot save himself and it is only through the mercy of the Most High that can save you.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
3,907
@AspiringSoul

No offence taken...

"islam is a walk in the park in comparison to that.
To Jesus, to even look at someone with lust, or to diss someone, meant you could go to hell. Therefore it was better to take out an eye than to risk going to hell. How come Jesus didn't just say 'no worries, I got you, God's grace and all of that?'

As I see it, Islam sets out a difficult but "achievable holiness" whereas Jesus sets the bar at perfection. His disciples said in consternation "who then can be saved" and Jesus enigmatically replied in Matthew 19

"25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

What made it possible was grace through faith in the redemption Jesus provided for each of us. If I have misunderstood Islam and unintentionally missed the concept of grace in it, please accept my apologies.
This is why I end up calling you guys 'theologically dishonest'
Matthew 18
Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

nowhere does he say you're saved through grace here, neither in this chapter or the next chapter.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”



here's an example of the islamic pov

(1) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "When the people of Paradise will enter Paradise and the people of hell will go to hell, Allah will order those who have had faith equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed to be taken out from hell. So they will be taken out but (by then) they will be blackened (charred). Then they will be put in the river of Haya' (rain) or Hayat (life) (the Narrator is in doubt as to which is the right term), and they will revive like a grain that grows near the bank of a flood channel. Don't you see that it comes out yellow and twisted" (Book #2, Hadith #21)

(4) Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "Whoever said "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and has in his heart good (faith) equal to the weight of a barley grain will be taken out of hell. And whoever said: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and has in his heart good (faith) equal to the weight of a wheat grain will be taken out of hell. And whoever said, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and has in his heart good (faith) equal to the weight of an atom will be taken out of hell." (Book #2, Hadith #42)


effectively it does mean many of us will go to hell......but if we have even the smallest amount of faith we'll be taken out.

of course, christians could try putting a negative spin on this by saying 'we're saved and you're not' but the reality is you're not saved....
being saved only holds true if, like jesus said

Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

in otherwords, you're saved, as long as you're perfect.


 

Daciple

Star
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
1,157
There goes that DECEPTION again.
Get over yourself, the only deception is you constantly claiming deception when there is none...

As anyone with a brain can see the word OBEY was used in reference to devoting the Amalekites to destruction NOT SACRIFICE. Which goes back to what I said. It is better to obey than to sacrifice. God didn’t tell him to make a sacrifice HE SAID DESTROY.
I dont think you even bothered to read either one of my posts addressing this did you? Clearly you couldnt have because of your response. The case you are trying to make is essentially that Sacrifice doesnt really matter that much and one of the proof texts you use is this one. The FACTS are that one can not logically come to the conclusion that Sacrifices doesnt matter using this verse because there was no call to Sacrifice here, Saul used it as a LIE to justify why he didnt follow Gods Command to kill everything. Do yourself a favor and re read my two posts because you look foolish in not understand my actual argument and why that verse doesnt in anyway negate the need to Sacrifice.

What is a Command of God tho?

Lev 4:24 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the Lord: it is a sin offering.

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.
33 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.

There is a Command for you to bring a Sacrifice for Sin Offerings, a Command neither you or the other psudeo Israelite want to OBEY and keep making excuses for not following.

Like I said if you are going to tell me that it is better to OBEY than anything, then get to OBEYING and show us how you are OBEYING the Commands of God in the Law, otherwise you just are a hypocrite...
 
Top