Daciple
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- Joined
- Apr 25, 2017
- Messages
- 1,157
I agree save the last part, He clearly did ordain a way that Christs Blood could Atone for Sin, what doesnt matter is what value YOU put on the Blood being shed. You clearly keep rejecting the need for Atonement by Blood, downplaying it in every single post, acting as tho its NOT what actually brought Atonement. The fact is, it is the Blood that brought Atonement, as I have quoted multiple times...The value that YOU place on the blood being shed is irrelevant. All thats relevant is what God ordained. And He did ordain a way to which ANIMAL BLOOD could atone for sin. Human blood? Not so much
Again you seem to have any lack of understanding the whole of text or symbolism, taking one verse and making it the epitome of the entire essence of Atonement. Just like you keep ignoring the Significances of Blood Atonement then cling to one or two verses to say Sacrifice wasnt really needed. I will address your misuse of that statement in a bit, but God clearly tells us that He will send someone that WILL be the Atonement for Sins, you just choose to ignore these verses in the Old Testament, why? Because you want to reject Jesus as your Lord and Savior...Yet God didnt tell Moses he was blemished as a reason he couldnt atone for another's sins. He was told the reason he could not do what he asked to do was because everyone's sin belongs to them (paraphrase of course).You're the one that says the OT and NT goes together. So its YOU who should address God's answer in relationship to the contradiction that He later planned to come and do oppositely. Or in other words, for Moses and Israel, everyone's sin was their own. But later everyone's sin belongs to "Jesus" who still gets to go to heaven anyways and not face the death that he allegedly saved us from (eternal hellfire right?)...Which opens another can of worms to if someone stood in our place, shouldnt that someone be facing our punishment?
Is 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Clearly Scripture foretells that SOMEONE will come, a person, and He will bare our griefs and sorrows, that He will be wounded for our transgressions and iniquities aka Sins, that the iniquity of all, aka the Sin of all will be laid upon Him by the Lord, that the Lord will bruise Him, that His soul will be made an OFFERING FOR SIN, that He will bear our iniquities, aka Sin, and that He will make intercession for he transgressors, aka the Sinners, aka you and me.
The constant objections that God never said that He would send a person to bear the Sins of others in the Old Testament if a farce in light of these Scriptures, to say that someone wont bear our Sins and be made an offering aka Sacrifice for Sin is again a complete farce because Scripture makes it explicitly clear. So either you can keep being willfully ignorant and proclaiming a lie or we can begin to see how we can understand all these Scriptures in light of one another instead of trying to make them all stand alone. I personally dont believe that the anything in the Bible, Old or New Contradict so I ask the Holy Spirit to guide me in understanding all these texts that to those who arent Born Again see them as Contradictions or pick and choose which verses they want to hold as True and reject the others.
Would you like to have a conversation on how these verses can all be True at the same time or do you want to keep lying and saying God never ordained that a Human will come and bear the Sins of all and become the Sin Offering aka Atonement for all and the intercessor for all the Sinners aka mankind?
Actually its Gods, and Jesus, and all the Disciples and Apostles, my opinion is based on them, the Old Testament states it, the New Testament states it, its your opinion that isnt based off the Bible that a man wouldnt come to be the Redemption of Sin...Its also your opinion/interpretation that without a human sacrifice nobody would be redeemed.
Man you really do have a hard time understanding concepts dont you? So when I asked who isnt blotted out of the Book its essentially a rhetorical question for you contemplate what your trying to tell everyone, which is that all men bear their own Sins and thus since we all bear our own Sins we all will be blotted out of the Book. A logical reasoning I see you have yet to acknowledge...Ps 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
While you actually did ask me who isnt in the book that I dont have access to, I assume the book mentioned in Exodus is the same book David mentioned here...
So what is the Book of Life? Is that simply the Book of those who are alive now, or is this for the Future? That is what I am trying to lead you to discern, because again it would change the entire perception of the verse you are using as the end all be all of Sin and Redemption. If its simply means the Book of those alive now and their Sins will be placed on them, it results in physical death, if it is the Book of Eternal Life, well then everyone including you and I are all going to Hell with no hope of Redemption.
Absolutely not, you undervalue it significantly and we can all see why, as I said the second you acknowledge its importance is the second your ideology begins to crack...You over exaggerate the importance of sacrifice in the Israelite culture.
Man if that isnt a contradiction in thought and ideology I dont know what it, so the central part of Israeli Culture is obedience to the Law right? The same Law that mandates Sacrifice for Blood Atonement yet you want to act like that obedience to that Law doesnt really mean that much lol ok then...Because not only were there OTHER ways to atone for sin, but God Hisself downplayed the importance of sacrifices multiple times saying He desired over sacrifice, OBEDIENCE. Obedience to what? His law or even better, instructions. Thats the central part of Israelite culture. Obedience to His instructions. Not sacrifice.
Also God never downplayed the important of Sacrifice, its a wonder you dont actually quote the Scripture that you derive that idea from, I know why you havent, because if we actually read what is being told it has absolutely nothing to do with God downplaying Sacrifice and everything to do with Sauls disobedience. Since you wont quote it I will and lets go over it and see if what you are saying is really true or just you misquoting Scripture out of context and trying to cling to a false doctrine to justify rejecting the importance of Blood Sacrifice, which is mandated in the Law...
1 Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Here is the beginning of what was happening before the Verse you would be quoting, so we see that God tells him to go and smite all the Amalek, to utterly destroy them, and what ends up happening?
1 Sam 15:9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.
So Saul doesnt do what he was told instead he spared the best sheep and all that was good for himself, then Samuel comes to him and what happens then?
1 Sam 15:13 And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the Lord: I have performed the commandment of the Lord.
Man so he lies to Samuel and says he did what God told him to do, but clearly he didnt and Samuel calls him out on it:
1 Sam 15:14 And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?
So after being called out by Samuel in his lie, Saul continues his lie and says this:
1 Sam 15:15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.
Now he lies and says well yeah the best were spared but it was to sacrifice to the Lord, which again was a lie, and also notice he doesnt take the blame for himself does he? No he blames the people for taking the best things and lies and says THEY were going to sacrifice it to God. So what happens after this? Thats when the verse you would like to quote takes place and in context doesnt have anything at all to do with God not actually desering Sacrifice:
1 Sam 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
So in absolutely no way does this say Sacrifice isnt something God wants or ordains, in context what we see is that Saul went directly against what God commanded in annihilating everything to do with the Amalekites, instead he choose to keep all the Good things for himself, then when confronted about it he lies to Samuel saying he did what God commanded, then when caught in that lie, he lies again and blames the people saying they took it to Sacrifice. Thats when its said look God told you to kill everyone and everything, instead you took things for yourself and use the excuse that you are going to Sacrifice them to God, God never told you to Sacrifice these things, its better that you follow what God tells you to do than to disobey him and use the excuse of Sacrifice as a reason to disobey.
So now that we have this verse in context we can all see this has absolutely nothing to do with God disapproving Sacrifice and everything with obeying Gods Commandment in THAT specific incident to kill everyone not to choose of yourself what you want and then pretend its ok do disobey because you are going to Sacrifice it...
Since that is no longer a Scripture used to negate the importance of Sin, which others ones have you cherry picked out of context to support this ideology, I would love to know so we can do what we did here and put them back in Context to show everyone that God DOES NOT disapprove of Sacrifice, He Commanded it plain and simple...
So now you are saying Jesus didnt exist? Wow lol ok then anything to get rid of that cognitive dissonance I suppose. It would be insanely hard to invent a Character that fulfills all of the Prophecies, if this was a man made invention surely there would be glaring holes and things that are not only internally wrong but Historically wrong. Also this is to deny the hundreds and thousands of people in the 1st century that stated He was a real person and then went on to die for speaking about Him. SMH if you really think this then I have lost pretty much all respect for you...As I said in this thread, its not hard to write a character to fulfill prophecies of the OT.
Except for the fact that YHWH pronounced He would send someone to be the Atonement of all, its like you keep purposefully ignoring this...And when you start saying that the character is the Most High and that the character said that the things he (supposedly) once commanded are no longer in effect, and that he planned a human sacrifice for his own appeasement, then it becomes clear to me that this character is a devil/demon.
Its pretty simple to connect the New with the Old only people who are willfully ignorant refuse to see the fulfillment of Prophecies and how Jesus came to usher in a New Covenant which again YHWH states explicitly He is going to do. I mean if you just look at the Passover and how the dinner is served something that has been done for 1000's of years and see how it matches exactly Christs life death and resurrection one would have to put massive blinders on to think that an invention of human mind could dream up such a thing. Only God could dictate to a Nation a Holy Day and the method in which they are to serve and eat the food on that day and have it literally be a foreshadowing of the coming of Jesus...The only way this could be rectified is if you could connect the "new" with the "old". Which cant happen, especially as it pertains to Exodus 32 and Moses' attempt at what you later say Jesus succeeded at doing.
No they are Facts, Facts you dont want to acknowledge but Facts none the less...But what you're saying in your posts arent facts but is simply NT doctrine you superimpose over the OT.
Yep just doing what Jesus stated to do...Im pretty sure you read the NT then went back and read the OT with the NT in mind.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Here are some more facts that you wont acknowledge, you dont actually believe Moses for if you did, you would believe Jesus because Moses wrote of Jesus. See you dont have the love of God in you according to the Word of God, you refuse to receive Jesus even tho He comes in the Fathers name, when one comes in his own name then you will receive him...
All you have to do is read the Bible, all of it and when you do this that is the conclusion you come to. Start in the Old then New or vice versa regardless when you simply read the whole thing you will see how the New fulfills the Old, unless of course you choose to be willfully ignorant and reject the very obvious fulfillment. I mean I understand how many things can be hidden from your understanding as only those who are Born Again and have the Holy Spirit can truly understand the Word of God as the Carnal Mind is at enmity with God. However this doesnt preclude people from acknowledging how Jesus can be the fulfillment of overt prophesies. Especially when someone like you has been on this forum for years having Born Again people break them down to a point where toddlers could grasp it. For you its simply willful ignorance and as your name suggests having a heart and mind of stone that rejects the Truth no matter how often it is given to you...Which is the ONLY way you can come to the conclusions you do.
You dont have to fear anything, your fear doesnt play apart in the Truth, the Truth is you will stand guilty before God for your Sins and you will not have a covering, the Blood applied to you for Redemption of your Soul. You will stand before God and every single message that has been delivered to you, even this one right here, that you have heard and read will be brought up and you will have to tell God how you willfully rejected His Son and thus as Jesus says:So I dont fear missing out on the "final (human) sacrifice of Christ" based on that and I dont fear being guilty because God didnt set up for me a priest, temple, and Israelites being in their homeland again without oppression.
Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Then you will be place in Hell with the horrible knowledge that you purposefully chose against your own Salvation, full of regret with every message replaying in your head for eternity, I hope you dont choose that fate and open your heart to what Christ has done for you and come to accept Salvation that is freely given to you...
Something is up with what is offered, its called Salvation and I hope that one day you accept it because regardless of your opinion God sent the Final Sacrifice for Sin ( I will acknowledge Ez when I get home) in Christ just as He said He would and its your choice to accept or reject Him, He wont force Himself on you...With all these things considered, either way you slice it, somethings up with whats being offered in christianity