Without Tawheed, all your deeds are useless and worthless.

[DarntheDarner]

Aw that’s sweet, thank you.

I only do it because I know the eternal consequences that awaits them unless they receive the truth, and if I can do something to help pull even one of them out of the fire….well, it was all worth it then.

You're very welcome.
We need more people to see
this truth, it's merciful to want to
try to help them. That takes a lot of
patience and kindness.
They also like to pass around this
"trinny" word alot.
Is it short for Christian?
Doesn't seem very clever.

 

[Daze]

You're very welcome.
We need more people to see
this truth, it's merciful to want to
try to help them. That takes a lot of
patience and kindness.
They also like to pass around this
"trinny" word alot.
Is it short for Christian?
Doesn't seem very clever.

Isn't it interesting, how the other day i went to defend a Muslim being attacked in your thread by 4 or 5 trinnys. You said i was going off topic, remember?

Yet here you are, in a Muslim thread, defending a trinny attacking it?

Tell me, does the Arabic word مكر have anything what so ever to do with Tawheed?

I mean the blatant, absolute hypocrisy just makes my head spin.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Isn't it interesting, how the other day i went to defend a Muslim being attacked in your thread by 4 or 5 trinnys.
You said i was going off topic, remember?

Yet here you are, in a Muslim thread, defending a trinny attacking it?

Tell me, does the Arabic word مكر have anything what so ever to do with Tawheed?

I mean the blatant, absolute hypocrisy just makes my head spin.

Daze, you and i may have nothing in common theologically, but i get what you're saying here. Completely.

This is a MUSLIM thread. That is why i had not commented before this, though i have been reading all along.

If us Christians don't want people to troll or derail our threads, we should stop trying to convert others in their own threads. Or trolling them. Anything else is hypocrisy.

This should not be hard to understand, yet despite this not being a Christian forum some posters seem to think only the Christian view should be expressed.

(It would be nice to not be referred to as a "trinny" because it sounds derogatory, but it is your free speech right to do so. Not a fan of "xtian" either)

 

[Orwell's mentor]

Daze, you and i may have nothing in common theologically, but i get what you're saying here. Completely.

This is a MUSLIM thread. That is why i had not commented before this, though i have been reading all along.

If us Christians don't want people to troll or derail our threads, we should stop trying to convert others in their own threads. Or trolling them. Anything else is hypocrisy.

This should not be hard to understand, yet despite this not being a Christian forum some posters seem to think only the Christian view should be expressed.

(It would be nice to not be referred to as a "trinny" because it sounds derogatory, but it is your free speech right to do so. Not a fan of "xtian" either)

Well, it's refreshing that there are people on here who seem to have...dare I say, a "healthy" and "mature" perspective. Why people enter threads, intentionally troll them and then feign being a "victim" in them is odd to say the least.

 

[Daze]

Daze, you and i may have nothing in common theologically, but i get what you're saying here. Completely.

This is a MUSLIM thread. That is why i had not commented before this, though i have been reading all along.

If us Christians don't want people to troll or derail our threads, we should stop trying to convert others in their own threads. Or trolling them. Anything else is hypocrisy.

This should not be hard to understand, yet despite this not being a Christian forum some posters seem to think only the Christian view should be expressed.

(It would be nice to not be referred to as a "trinny" because it sounds derogatory, but it is your free speech right to do so. Not a fan of "xtian" either)

I don't really have a problem with Christians in Muslim threads as long as they are not abusive. Like insulting the prophet or something similar. I am always open for discussion. But sometimes the hypocrisy is more clear then the nose on ones face.

For example Darn literally called me a troll like 2 days ago for doing what she is doing now. Does this make her a troll?
Lets ask. @DarntheDarner .. well?


I've known Claire since like 2016. I don't have any major problem with her. I've certainly known worse who claim her faith. Floss and Seekinheart come to mind. Both are vile people.

I do not mean to offend with Trinitarian. It is an official term just like Unitarian. Trinny is just shortening it because i am lazy. What word do you prefer i use? I need something to separate the Christians who say Jesus is god from the Christians who say he isn't. What would you like me to use?


I wouldn't say we have nothing in common theologically either. I've mentioned this routinely but i was a Christian for about 30 years before i reverted to Islam. If you take Jesus out of the equation the 2 are basically the same religion. All of your 10 commandments are present in Islam. In fact they are more strict in Islam. Such as lying WILL take you out of the religion and the punishment for the adulterer is death.

There are differences yes, such as Muslims believe angels can't disobey God so no nephilim. But God did create giants, they are the people of Aad. But considering the whole picture we both believe in the God of Abraham.
We both believe he sent books / guidance.
We both believe in angels.
We both believe in demons / djinn.
We both believe in satan.
We have the exact same prophets from Adam onward.

So on and so on.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

do not mean to offend with Trinitarian. It is an official term just like Unitarian. Trinny is just shortening it because i am lazy. What word do you prefer i use? I need something to separate the Christians who say Jesus is god from the Christians who say he isn't. What would you like me to use?

Trinitarian is fine, but i think trinny sounds too close to tranny.

I wouldn't say we are have nothing in common theologically either

I'm not going to debate this matter, or the rest of your post, here out of respect for the fact that this is a Muslim thread.

 

[Daze]

Trinitarian is fine, but i think trinny sounds too close to tranny.

Ok, if people find it offensive I will try to remember to use the full word.

I'm not going to debate this matter, or the rest of your post, here out of respect for the fact that this is a Muslim thread.

No problem, but nothing is learned if every thread is an echoing chamber. Not that the majority of regulars have open minds to begin with.
But you might convince a lurker to take a look at the world from another angle.

 

[AspiringSoul]

@DarntheDarner literally this forum is full of xtians who attack islam all the time. there are very few muslims on here. in fact i only joined this forum when i saw attacks against islam on the forum and that was many years ago. nothing has changed since. most the threads in this section are not by muslims.

you think we're picking on here..read the rest of my post..


@Claire Rousseau
yeh literally you went to

Allah, the Best Deceiver (Qur'an 3:54)

wikiislam.net

the image you posted claims it's origin in the Hans Wehr arabic to english dictionary....written by a nazi!!!

there you go.





here's the verse, diff translations..
plot/plan

30. And [remember, O Muhammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners.

30. And (remember) when the disbelievers plotted against you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) to imprison you, or to kill you, or to get you out (from your home, i.e. Makkah); they were plotting and Allah too was plotting; and Allah is the Best of those who plot.

transliteration
0. Waith yamkuru bika allatheena kafaroo liyuthbitooka aw yaqtulooka aw yukhrijooka wayamkuroona wayamkuru Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena


go on google translate, translate english to arabic
the word for DECEIVE is?
yakhdae

the actual word on google is CUNNING..and cunning is not evil or good, it depends on the context.



so...
go back to my earlier point

9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

literally the king james bible paints Yahweh as a deceiver.

the translations of the word יְפֻתֶּ֣ה inc words like 'seduce, entice, deceive' etc.

yet you're lying about Allah literally using fake translations written by nazis or anti islam xtians...



the question of why God is described in human terms with human qualities...err your God Yahweh literally plays hide and seek with Adam and Even in Genesis. The same God regrets his own decisions.

me personally, i understand it just as mythos, given to people at their own level of stupidity. we are all stupid in relative terms, all language is just reducing God to 'our level'.
God 'plotting/planning' being 'cunning and enticing' are all just ways or projecting God into our reality in ways we can relate to.

muslim translators never used the word 'deceive' in this context, it was you kafirs who did that when you attacked Allah and filled google search results on purpose to further con their own kind.

 

[AspiringSoul]

I think alot of it is bias. What they hear confirms what they already believed, so its taken as truth. Confirmation bias as they say.

End of the day most of it is ego and the absolute rejection of ever being wrong.


This is an old screenshot, why "herd" is highlighted. But the entire quote holds merit for this thread.. and every other thread about religion on these boards.

View attachment 89734

There is not a single soul here who is open to the other side, only to push their own beliefs hoping to convert everyone else.

Truth awaits us all in the end.

i learnt these through muslim sectarianism myself and that helped me when i studied the bible and i saw how the herd mentality attacking the prophets too.
knowing that, as soon as i saw all the evidence inc OT prophecies about the crucifixion of Jesus, i accepted it.
back then id read the Quran for clarity just incase there's something im missing, some other perspective..but it was all confirming one consistent truth.

that's all ive argued for more than ive defended islam. ive argued that it all conforms to the same truth from diff perspectives.

if i was you, id read these 3 chapters

Wisdom - Chapter 1 - Bible - Catholic Online

1 Love uprightness you who are rulers on earth, be properly disposed towards the Lord and seek him in simplicity of heart; 2 for he will be found by those who do not put him to the test, revealing himself to those who do not mistrust him. 3 Perverse thoughts, however, separate people from God...

www.catholic.org

and when you've read chapter 3, read verse 4:157 again and think about what it really means and who and what message it is negating.

this book, Wisdom, was part of the bible in the time of Jesus, which means HE and his blessed mother and john the Baptist, all read this book.
YET when i suggest this book to the common protestant christian, they start shitting out of their mouth.
they say 'oh dat book is satanic'

the book was taken out of the bible and considered non-canonical, by 2nd century JEWS. go figure. read chapter 2 and you get why they'd do that lmao.

however i do believe that Jesus christ had the shittest ummah of all the prophets. it makes sense why he will say 'GET AWAY FROM ME YOU EVIL DOERS, I NEVER KNEW YOU'
which itself makes me take back this view, because they are not his ummah at all. they only claim to be.

Jude 1 makes perfect sense.

 

[AspiringSoul]

using nazi dictionaries will save me from hell fire?

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Just curious. Do you know any Arabic at all? Can you say hello in Arabic?

Here, lets have a basic convo.

View attachment 89737

I put it in an image because anyone can use a translator. Very basic opening in Arabic. Can you read it?

By all means, reply in English. I'd just like to see if you personally know any Arabic what so ever.

No, I don’t know any Arabic whatsoever.

 

[Daze]

No, I don’t know any Arabic whatsoever.

Thank you for your honesty.

Don't you think someone who does know Arabic (DesertRose) is more reliable then your 2nd hand biased source?
By your own admission you're reliant on western narratives because Fox news is not broadcast in Arabic.

I also think its interesting how Aspire points out that image you shared comes from a Nazi.
Do you frequent Islamic hate sites Claire? We already know you're a fan of Christian Prince and agenda driven narratives.

You might think this response is harsh and its not meant to be. But i do find your response to Darn interesting.

and if I can do something to help pull even one of them out of the fire

When the Bible rejects the divinity of Jesus in 90 verses.


What does one do with the verse where Jesus cries to God to save him?



Know how many verses in the Quran reject the message Muslims convey? Go ahead, take a guess.

Once again, not trying to be cruel. It is as you said. If we can pull one out of the eternal fire its worth the effort. Is it not?

 

[Claire Rousseau]

When the Bible rejects the divinity of Jesus in 90 verses.


What does one do with the verse where Jesus cries to God to save him?

The Bible never rejects the divinity of Jesus; it teaches it.

Why do you say that Jesus cried out to God to save him?? That verse says nothing of the sort. Do you even know what was happening (and why) when He asked that? Please tell me what YOU think was going on, I am interested in your thoughts on that.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Don't you think someone who does know Arabic (DesertRose) is more reliable then your 2nd hand biased source?

For starters, I was not aware that DR knows Arabic.

Furthermore, why is she “more reliable” than my source? I know that Brother Amir was born and raised in Saudi Arabia & Arabic is his mother tongue. So how is he any LESS reliable than she is?

Then you go on to accuse him of being biased when you do not even know the man!

Clearly you are prejudiced against Christians.

And finally, truly, I don’t know what to believe now because Islam actually allows lying:

Cases in which lying is permitted - IslamQA

There is a ḥadīth which allows to "lie" in three situations: 1. In case of husband and wife, for instance; wife is cooking and then ask her husband if it tastes nice and he answers

islamqa.org

…and you cannot accuse me of hate because that website is a Muslim site.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Haha...here comes the "dat takkiyah doe" line

When all else fails....

And the imaginary saudi ex muslim...brother amir lmfao.

 

[DesertRose]

For starters, I was not aware that DR knows Arabic.

Furthermore, why is she “more reliable” than my source? I know that Brother Amir was born and raised in Saudi Arabia & Arabic is his mother tongue. So how is he any LESS reliable than she is?

I speak Arabic conversationally.
Although it was the first language I learned I am not a native speaker. I have lived around the world and speak other languages as well.
Moreover, my Arabic is not at the level that is required to take a deep dive into Arabic etymology which is university-level Arabic.
I would prefer if we do not make this subject personal.
It is not surprising that an ex-Muslim would go for the most biased word that was mistranslated into English by non-Muslims.
Sometimes people can have a spirit that is fault-finding and lacking in generosity to justify their choices for rejecting something.
If you study languages you would understand that the correlation and meanings of words can be a bit off when translated into another language.

I think it is strange that you can not see how this is not deception when you read the context in which it is used in the Quran.
Here is 3:54 in context.

In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

42. The angels said, “O Mary, God has chosen you, and has purified you. He has chosen you over all the women of the world.

43. “O Mary, be devoted to your Lord, and bow down, and kneel with those who kneel.”

44. These are accounts from the Unseen, which We reveal to you. You were not with them when they cast their lots as to which of them would take charge of Mary; nor were you with them as they quarreled.

45. The Angels said, “O Mary, God gives you good news of a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, well-esteemed in this world and the next, and one of the nearest.

46. He will speak to the people from the crib, and in adulthood, and will be one of the righteous.”

47. She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child, when no man has touched me?” He said, “It will be so. God creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.”

48. And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel.

49. A messenger to the Children of Israel: “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I make for you out of clay the figure of a bird; then I breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God’s leave. And I heal the blind and the leprous, and I revive the dead, by God’s leave. And I inform you concerning what you eat, and what you store in your homes. In that is a sign for you, if you are believers.”

50. “And verifying what lies before me of the Torah, and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; so fear God, and obey me.”

51. “God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.”

52. When Jesus sensed disbelief on their part, he said, “Who are my allies towards God?” The disciples said, “We are God’s allies; we have believed in God, and bear witness that we submit.”

53. “Our Lord, we have believed in what You have revealed, and we have followed the Messenger, so count us among the witnesses.”

54. They planned, and God planned; but God is the Best of planners.

55. God said, “O Jesus, I am terminating your life, and raising you to Me, and clearing you of those who disbelieve. And I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return; then I will judge between you regarding what you were disputing.

56. As for those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe punishment, in this world and the next, and they will have no helpers.

57. And as for those who believe and do good works, He will give them their rewards in full. God does not love the unjust.”

58. This is what We recite to you of the Verses and the Wise Reminder.

59. The likeness of Jesus in God’s sight is that of Adam: He created him from dust, then said to him, “Be,” and he was.

60. The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
3:42-60

 

[DesertRose]

Allah will say, ‘This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness.’
For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever,
Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him.
That is the great attainment. [Quran, 5:119] ​

Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Truth leads one to Paradise and virtue leads one to Paradise and the person tells the truth until he is recorded as truthful, and lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell, and the person tells a lie until he is recorded as a liar.
Sahih Muslim – Book 32 Hadith 6307

Lying is actually a major sin in Islam.
The concession was given only on 3 occasions:

1. Complimenting your wife to make her happy. (What Westerners refer to as a white lie)
2. Lying to the enemy during war, as war is a trick.
3. Lying to two quarreling people to make up between them.(What Westerners refer to as a white lie)

Muslim (2605) narrated from Umm Kalthoom bint ‘Uqbah that she heard the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “He is not a liar who reconciles between people, saying good things and conveying good things.”

Ibn Shihaab – one of the narrators of the hadeeth – said: I did not hear of any concession being granted concerning anything that people call lies except in three cases: War, reconciling among people, and what a man says to his wife or a woman says to her husband.

Imam Ahmad (26731) narrated that Umm Kalthoom bint ‘Uqbah said: I never heard the Messenger of Allah grant a concession allowing any kind of lying except in three cases: a man who says something intending thereby to bring about reconciliation; a man who says something at the time of war; and a man talking to his wife or a woman talking to her husband.
Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in as-Saheehah, 545

The concession is granted only in these three cases and similar cases. In all other cases the lawgiver has not allowed any concession, so lying remains forbidden.
Taken from Islamqa.info

Practicing Muslims Claire are trustworthy, reliable and do not lie even as a joke.
This is because of our teachings.
I suggest you travel, your level of prejudice and vilification would get lowered in no time.
Nations such as Indonesia and Malaysia became Muslim because of the honesty and piety of Muslim traders.
You are still straying from the OP which is about the core of our religions which is that the Creator is One not 3 in 1.

This video has gone viral in Arab world -Check the level of Imaan/belief he has!

 

[DavidSon]

I feel bad for poor Claire
on this thread.
Seems like the typical
gang up.
It is pretty horrible to see this
kind of thing on here.
I guess that's what religious
debate can turn into.

If you truly joined in July 2023 I can inform you that in comparison to some of the past discussions here this thread has been very civil. I credit everyone involved for being friendly and reasonable. Seriously this is a great discussion that I've been excited to check early in the mornings, which has inspired my own ideas about the history of God being conceived as the One, maybe in comparison to the Christian theology of 3 aspects/elements in one.

My opinion is no one's beating up on Claire but it's more than obvious that the tired, somewhat childlike explanations for "Christianity" and the Trinity fall short under intelligent scrutiny. The statement that "only the saved can understand the meaning of the Bible" is lol preposterous to any thinking adult. To me the whole "humans are made of 3 parts" argument is just silly considering the quadrillion little particles that make up the human biome. The concepts of mind/body/spirit or body/soul/spirit etc., which are super interesting, have been investigated from many perspectives across geography and time, from Egyptians to Indians and Persians to Greeks back around. Sorry but most of the weak worn-out arguments of Christians do nothing to capture the imagination of spiritual seekers (especially the younger people we're worried about).

There's an owner I talk with at a local convenience store who's insistent about sharing his experience as a Christian, how Jesus IS God and "died for our sins," etc. His view is totally egotistical, self-centered, emotive, and subjective (vs. universal or objective). What if I didn't know about the Jewish theology of blood offerings for sin? No wonder the Christian religion is declining year by year.

If you care about explaining yourself it only takes a few minutes to get familiar with the required information. Offer some new insight for God's sake! Both Muslim and Christian could probably gain something from a review of the history of the terms being discussed. You don't have to even read the whole wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawhid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

I think it's important to note that the Church Fathers who conceived of God as Trinity were heavily studied in Greek philosophy like platonism/neoplatonism and other religions (that Aspiring Soul has explained in detail). "The Trinity" can't be properly elucidated by your average backwoods evangelist without knowledge of Logos (or Sophia), which leads to the disconnect today. It's tragic to hear the common man or woman attempting to delve into these topics when they have no background to offer convincing arguments. Check out this proclamation of the 4th Lateran Council (1215):

...Therefore in God there is only a Trinity, not a quaternity, since each of the three persons is that reality – that is to say substance, essence or divine nature-which alone is the principle of all things, besides which no other principle can be found. This reality neither begets nor is begotten nor proceeds; the Father begets, the Son is begotten and the holy Spirit proceeds. Thus there is a distinction of persons but a unity of nature. Although therefore the Father is one person, the Son another person and the holy Spirit another person, they are not different realities, but rather that which is the Father is the Son and the holy Spirit, altogether the same; thus according to the orthodox and catholic faith they are believed to be consubstantial.

A distinction but a UNITY of nature. It's interesting that both Christian and Islamic authors reason on the idea of God vs. attributes or substance, again these questions about transcendence vs. immanence that AS is always bringing up. I'd say again to Christians if you want to lead people toward Christ and the Trinity then utilize some of these historic concepts. Follow Jay Dyer or some other Orthodox teachers because your regular apologetics are childish.

I would rather live in a Christian empire than the degenerate post-modern usury based system we currently inhabit but honestly the obscurity of Trinity theology only gives credence to the simple power of Tawheed. Even with 3-in-1 it's still ONE, a concept both the fundamentalist and mystic minded personalities are comfortable with.

 

[Daze]

The Bible never rejects the divinity of Jesus; it teaches it.

If this was true Claire, then why do we have Christians who reject the divinity of Jesus? To my knowledge at least 3 on VC say Jesus is not God. One in this very thread which you chose to ignore.

Why do you say that Jesus cried out to God to save him?? That verse says nothing of the sort. Do you even know what was happening (and why) when He asked that? Please tell me what YOU think was going on, I am interested in your thoughts on that.

The verse is speaking about Jesus asking God to save him right before he is allegedly crucified.

But lets remove all context from it. Jesus literally asks God why he has forsaken him. Isn't this one entity?

Have you ever screamed out "Claire, why have you forsaken me"...?.. I'd think the men in white suits would be on there way if you did.

For starters, I was not aware that DR knows Arabic.

Well, I've seen her use it, I doubt I'm the only one.

Furthermore, why is she “more reliable” than my source? I know that Brother Amir was born and raised in Saudi Arabia & Arabic is his mother tongue. So how is he any LESS reliable than she is?

In all honestly Claire i know many fake ex-Muslims. They are more common then fleas on a dog because its insanely easy to make money by pandering to Christians.

Such as Ergun Caner who got up on stage pretending to know Arabic making himself look like a fool. Christians ate it up while Muslims literally laughed at him.

These people are insanely common.

Looking at the track record of the alleged ex-Muslims, many who don't even know how many rakats are in a wudu.
It doesn't look good if you know what i mean. Because when questioned basic everyday knowledge is zilch.

Then you go on to accuse him of being biased when you do not even know the man!

Do i need to know him? Theres this tweeter i follow on Twitter. Believe it or not there are many atheists in Saudi Arabia. Ones homeland does not lend credibility.

Clearly you are prejudiced against Christians.

My mother and father have died as Christians. To this day i have 2 Christian sisters, 2 Christian brothers and many, many Christian aunts, uncles, cousins.

 

[A Freeman]

What is jahtruth?

JAHTruth.net is a Website, created by Christ, and dedicated to all those seeking the truth during these end-times.

It is routinely attacked by unbelievers, who have decided to call it a new "religion" because it cuts through all of the nonsense (lies) that surround ALL organized religion, like a sharp, two-edged sword.