Without Tawheed, all your deeds are useless and worthless.

[AspiringSoul]

Great point being made here. It even asks in the Quran why they come to you (Muhammad pbuh) for judgment when they HAVE (present tense) God's Law / The Torah with them. And says that the Christians should judge by the Gospel that they have. It also says to have no doubt about the Torah and it's reaching (you). So the Quran confirms the validity of the Torah and the Gospel, as it says many places. Only it points out wrong interpretation of it to correct it, and tells the Bible people (people of the Book) not to exceed or exaggerate in their religion beyond the truth.
Again, good point made.

I've been making this point for over 15 yrs, got called a KAFIR many times for these views.
the problem is that to the christians and muslims, the books contradict each other.

the christians say 'islam rejects THE SON and the crucifixion'
but it doesnt...

if you read the book of Wisdom chapters 1-3. not only do you find that it was a prophecy about Jesus Christ himself and also explained a central topic concerning the nature of the nafs(the serpent, our carnal nature), it also (in chapter 3) perfectly matched verse 4:157 of the Quran in terms of the actual argument about Jesus Christ.

'he only APPEARED TO DIE'
the Quran says 'think not of the slain (in war) as dead, no they are living, but you perceive it not'
literally, Wisdom 1-3 explains how the nafs itself is what causes death..and the death of the nafs, means there is no death, only the appearance of death (physically passing away from this world). it is just as how there was a man imprisoned in hades. It all comes with degrees too. Some are deeply tortured by the '99 headed serpent', whilst others are free from it's harm but still stuck in hades. the only ones who are beyond that level are the ones who's nafs was killed (which the sufis call FANA).

Fana (Sufism) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

this is what Jesus was talking about repeatedly, 'unless you die to the world'.

personally ive struggled heavily with this. money, status, matters..you cant function in the world without it. the sufi stories of wanderers, free of wordly attachment...all take place in the middle east/persia.
you can't live that life in England lmao. it's tooc old. i couldnt sleep outside.
in pakistan many do, many embrace that life, but they still have to live off the donations of people who actually work and donate. the concept of langar, practiced by hindus, muslims and sikhs, those wanderers live off that. free food and they get to sleep inside the courtyard of the mosques, some are even given free rooms.

going back to the 'contradictions between scriptures' topic. the other one being 'islam rejects THE SON', but ive argued that the son is just the judaic symbolic term for LOGOS. the Quran perfectly says that Jesus is THE WORD OF ALLAH. only problem is that muslims tend to think of this in a literal sense as actual scripture.
the sufis like ibn sina embrace neo-platonic greek philosophy and they came upon this term, the logos, translated into arabic as KALAM. So then al ghazali dissed ibn sina for claiming the WORD OF ALLAH/SCRIPTURE is 'eternal', arguing that it is post-causal.

as i read all this, i thought 'am i really smarter than fucking al ghazali?'
truth is, no, not even close..but those guys were just lost in translation really.
we're so lucky we live in the age of information. there is no excuse to be dumb now.

i tell christian protestant types to read the book of Wisdom, they say 'that deviant satanic book that the catholics read?, no thank you, the holy spirit tells me that is a lie, no wonder you like it, you're a satanic muslim'....
Jesus himself, Mary even, would have literally read Wisdom in their lifetime, prob many times over, since back then it was literally part of the bible.
the jewish rabbis who eventually rejected Wisdom, did so in the 2nd century AD....and you only need to read chapters 1-3 to know why they'd reject it (just saying, not hating, but contexts like that do matter and they are true)

 

[Claire Rousseau]

The words Makr, Khidaa', and Kayd, translated into English as scheming or plotting, are not dispraised in all contexts. They may be praiseworthy or blameworthy depending on the context. Ar-Raaghib

wrote:
"Makr means undermining the plot of the opponent by means of stratagem.

Ok, “Ar-Raaghib”(or whoever that is), is completely full of it.

I spoke to one of my church deacons, Brother Amir (an ex-Muslim who is a native Arabic speaker) today at church and showed him your post & mine before it.

He immediately confirmed that it means deceiver, and that it is never used in a praiseworthy application because the intent is always malicious & treacherous, and the context of the verses verifies it.

He went on to say that anyone who knows Arabic knows that it says that, and are lying through their teeth if they claim otherwise.

He also said Muslims (like those in the sources you referenced) will not hesitate to lie to people (including other Muslims!) about it and try to soften the wording so it’s more palatable to people.

And I certainly trust him over your source because I have attended church with Brother Amir and his family for years and he is saved.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

I knew it... you're one of these jahtruth people. no way am i taking this jahtruth thing seriously. nome of us would have even heard of jahtruth if wasn't for the aggressive jahtruth shilling operation on here

What is jahtruth?

 

[90sWereBetter]

What is jahtruth?

jahtruth... the way home or face the fire.... these people on here promoting some new(ish) religion that got made up where they supposedly follow the Quran and the Bible while I doubt they're really in line with either

 

[DesertRose]

And I certainly trust him over your source because I have attended church with Brother Amir and his family for years and he is saved.

The sources brought for you are all Arabic speakers and scholars, so that claim by your fellow worshiper is irrelevant.

Let us look at the verse in context:
In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

42. The angels said, “O Mary, God has chosen you, and has purified you. He has chosen you over all the women of the world.

43. “O Mary, be devoted to your Lord, and bow down, and kneel with those who kneel.”

44. These are accounts from the Unseen, which We reveal to you. You were not with them when they cast their lots as to which of them would take charge of Mary; nor were you with them as they quarreled.

45. The Angels said, “O Mary, God gives you good news of a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, well-esteemed in this world and the next, and one of the nearest.

46. He will speak to the people from the crib, and in adulthood, and will be one of the righteous.”

47. She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child, when no man has touched me?” He said, “It will be so. God creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.”

48. And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel.

49. A messenger to the Children of Israel: “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I make for you out of clay the figure of a bird; then I breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God’s leave. And I heal the blind and the leprous, and I revive the dead, by God’s leave. And I inform you concerning what you eat, and what you store in your homes. In that is a sign for you, if you are believers.”

50. “And verifying what lies before me of the Torah, and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; so fear God, and obey me.”

51. “God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.”

52. When Jesus sensed disbelief on their part, he said, “Who are my allies towards God?” The disciples said, “We are God’s allies; we have believed in God, and bear witness that we submit.”

53. “Our Lord, we have believed in what You have revealed, and we have followed the Messenger, so count us among the witnesses.”

54. They planned, and God planned; but God is the Best of planners.

55. God said, “O Jesus, I am terminating your life, and raising you to Me, and clearing you of those who disbelieve. And I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return; then I will judge between you regarding what you were disputing.

56. As for those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe punishment, in this world and the next, and they will have no helpers.

57. And as for those who believe and do good works, He will give them their rewards in full. God does not love the unjust.”

58. This is what We recite to you of the Verses and the Wise Reminder.

59. The likeness of Jesus in God’s sight is that of Adam: He created him from dust, then said to him, “Be,” and he was.

60. The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
3:42-60

More on this:

Transliteration:
Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena

Translation:
“And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.” – Quran 3:54

The historical background for the verse is that the Jews ‘planned’ evil in order to get Jesus arrested and crucified. And Allah in the verse says as they planned evil, so too Allah planned to thwart their wicked plan. Christian missionaries have an issue with the words used for both the Jews and Allah. They prefer to translate this way:

“and [they] deceived and Allah deceived and Allah is the best of deceivers”

The above translation does not exist. It is only made up by crazy deluded missionaries in order to lead people astray. Arabic word(s) makr, Makara can be used negatively and for good. So when the Jews planned to get Jesus arrested and crucified, that was evil, whereas when Allah thwarted their evil plan by saving Jesus, this was good. So, the claim by missionaries that Allah is a deceiver for helping one of the Prophet’s from slaughter at the hands of evil, wicked people, these claims have no bearing on the passage historically.

MAKR
Has two meanings:
1. Plotting or planning evil intent.
2. Planning for a good purpose: ‘Wa Makaru wa Makara Allah wa’LLahu Khairul Makereen’ (Surah Aali Imran 3:54. They planned and Allah planned and Allah is the best of planners’.
Makara = they plotted. Makara = He planned.
Makkar = plotter.
Makereen = plotters. [4][

The meaning of the Noble Qur’an – Abdullah Yusuf Ali

6078: Makara is applied both to plotting with an evil purpose and planning with a good purpose. Cf. 3:54, and 0. 392 ‘And the unbelievers plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.’ [5]

The Message of The Quran – Muhammad Asad

44 Lit., they schemed’ – here referring to those among the Jews who refused to acknowledge Jesus as a prophet and tried to destroy him. [6]

The above Islamic scholars make it quite clear that when Makr is used for Allah there is no deception. It depends on the object, hence, was it for a good purpose or evil? When Allah plans to thwart the evil plans of disbelievers against Jesus, that is good. How is this in any way evil? Is it wrong to help an innocent person and stopping an evil plan?
(for their full discussion go to the source given below)

Response To Critics Claim ‘Allah Is A Deceiver’ – Quran (3:54) - Islam Compass

Listen to this ‘ ’ – (:) Mohamad Mostafa NassarTwitter:@NassarMohamadMR The aim of this article is to answer the claims made by Christian missionaries that Allah is a ‘deceiver’, and a ‘liar’, dealing with the word used in 8:58, 7:99 And 3:54. The verse we are going

islamcompass.com

And I certainly trust him over your source because I have attended church with Brother Amir and his family for years and he is saved.

It is up to you Claire, whom you believe and what you believe.
We are only tasked with conveying the message.
Guidance is from Allah who has a clear vision of our hearts.
You should ask the Creator ( not Prophet Jesus peace be upon him) for guidance.
If you want the truth The Creator will support you if you sincerely ask Him.
May Allah guide you to the truth! Ameen!
This thread is about Tawheed The Unity of God and the necessity of worshiping Him and not the Triune one,. Also, the importance of this for the next life and for entering paradise and not entering the Hellfire as a result of the polytheism of the trinity.
That is the crux of the matter not about a word that was mistranslated by some deceiving missionaries.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Swear to God these xtians are so fullof shite...making up a story of a fake "ex muslim arab speaking priest" who happens to say "no no the arabic word makr mea s deceiver and the muslims who say otherwise are all taght to lie"

Lmao

Ezekiel 14:9
9 “‘And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the Lord have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel.

Xtians altered the meaning to entice..when it said "deceive"

Context behind the word

Strong's Number 6601 Hebrew Dictionary of the Old Testament Online Bible with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Brown Driver Briggs Lexicon, Etymology, Translations Definitions Meanings & Key Word Studies - Lexiconcordance.com

Strong's #6601 פָּתָה pathah {paw-thaw'} A primitive root; to open, that is, be (causatively make) roomy; usually figuratively (in a mental or moral sense) to be (causatively make) simple or (in a sinister way) delude. Online Strong's Exhaustive Concordance numbers, Brown-Driver-Briggs...

lexiconcordance.com

Same thing theyre attacking Allah of.

Xtians are the worst ummah imaginable.

 

[Maldarker]

@Claire Rousseau
The primary problem here is that you've failed to understand, the crucifixion was not about the ACCOUNT OF SIN, but the nature of sin..

it's about, what muslims call 'the nafs'. That is the 99 headed serpent that bites us in the grave (sheol/hades) to tyhe extent of our earthly attachments, our sins etc, aka 'the cords of sheol'.

in islam, that is what the concept of martydom is about. Martyrs are considered living, not dead. Why? because that serpent that binds us to the grave, is already dead..so how can a soul like that not be living and free?

So with regards to Jesus, this is a unique situation where you have to be 'joined' in him...spiritually. Your heart has to reflect Jesus, connected through LOVE...and only then 'his qualities become your qualities'. if that makes sense.

However even that is a tall order, because the epistles were not addressed to you anyway.

Thus, my own argument is this..
-Paul argued that the circumcision symbol was dead, because it failed in it's purpose, to 'cut the flesh' (our carnal nature). since people were openly sinful, just based off of that, Paul could say 'yup, that symbol aint shit'. So Paul argued that the Cross was even better, it symbolised the DEATH of the serpent and it was a living symbol (obv at that time, it would be, fresh off the grill n all).
BUT 2000 yrs on you think all this applies to you? Rome took that cross symbol, turned it upside down (satanic) into the symbol of the sword, war and conquest. Rome is the Beast.
By Paul's logic, the cross is dead. This 'born again' stuff is a total lie. if you literally have a carnal nature alive and well in you, the cross failed in its purpose.

As for your deep seated issues against prophet Mohammad and your claim that he wrote the Quran. Actually, the Quran was revealed by the HOLY SPIRIT. in John 16, Jesus said
-he will bring you ALL THE TRUTH (literally this has to mean scripture)
-he will tell you what is to come (literally, that means prophecy)
-he will not speak of his own but only what he hears.
This makes sense when you understand that the holy spirit functions through people.
The question is, why would the holy spirit seek out an ishmaelite prophet, Mohammad? why him?

Again i refer to Paul's logic. Paul argued that the gentile christians were like the original patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac Jacob etc) 'righteous by faith before there was a law given to Moses'. YET later when the israelites lost faith entirely in Egypt, God saw fit to subject them to the LAW. God didnt just revert them back to 'faith' did he?
Now extend the same formula to gentiles. Aferall after Jesus came, the gentile period began and it has to be a repetition of the previous pattern.
So you have the Torah and you have Shariah (same meaning).
It also makes sense in light of the promises made to make Ishmael a 'great nation', literally such a thing could never happen until 'shiloh' (Jesus).

so what about this 'great nation'? Jesus is the rock that destroys the Image in Daniel 2. Yet muslims were the ones to end the 4 beasts of Daniel.
literally muslims smashed persia and the byzantine empire, win the crusades (note, colonialism is the rise of the end times beast, the white horse conquering, Rev 6). If that wasnt enough, Babylon was alive and well in the christian era...but then islam came and babylon was finished.

yet even that isnt enough..

ive gone into this many times
Revelation 11
gentiles trampling on the temple mount for 1260 days.
how about this?

637 to 1099 AD = 462
1187 to 1948 = 761
total 1223 yrs

1223 x 1.0306812089059 (solar to lunar years conversion) = 1260.

You literally cant deny islam's place in everything..and if all that wasnt enough, in Revelation 12 we're then told that the woman and her offpsring (the true remnant of judea) found shelter 'in the wilderness for 1260 days out of the serpents reach'. literally, under islamic protection in the holy land for 1260 days.

ive talked about this many times. in Matthew 24 and Luke 21, Jesus spoke about the destruction of Jerusalem which was fulfilled in 70AD. He told his followers to flee to the mountains to escape the punishment.
So then jump to Zechariah 13 which foretold these events. The true remnant were the survivors. 2/3 were either turfed out of the holy land or killed. The remaining jews, the survivors, became THE remnant.
over time, obv they lost their 'jewish' identity and became PALESTINIAN!!! thus their conversion to islam and finally 'those who believe in the testimony of Jesus AND FOLLOW GOD'S COMMANDMENTS).
The end point remains the same, islam is most def THE truth.

Lastly, muslims have to believe in ALL the prophets. the shahada, stating that prophet Mohammad is 'the final messenger' doesnt need explaining. This specific belief is more importantly given to prevent future claimants claiming prophethood. prophethood ended and there hasnt been another prophet since.
you might try to argu e'oh but then why is joseph smith any different?'
the answer is smith was a quack with zero credibility. For example even the story of the 'angel' moroni..was literally saying that the angel had a previous incarnation as man, a sailor. These type of concepts are totally alien to abrahimic scripture.
the angels islam believes in are the same ones in the bible eg Michael, Gabriel. Even when christians have disgustingly mocked the story of prophet Mohammad's encounter with Gabriel, they're like 'OMG HE WAS SCARED, HE WAS FROTHING AT THE MOUTH, THAT WAS DEF SATAN'..
yet the prophet Daniel, who was already in an established theology...who would have already known who Gabriel was, was petrified and couldnt move for days after his experience with Gabriel. it was a scary experience...not exactly daffodils and faeries like these transexual xtian like to imagine.

seriously everything is in islam's favour when it comes to basic logical arguments like ive presented. the idea of another prophet after Jesus, makes perfect sense...

He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.”
21 They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
He answered, “No.”

even if they didnt envisage an ishmaelite prophet, the archetype of 'THE PROPHET' seperate to THE MESSIAH was already established in the hearts and minds of the jewish people..and since Jesus the messiah has been, no new jewish prophet could come after him anyway, thus it had to be a gentile..and who better than an ishmaelite? makes perfect sense to me.

Actually your wrong but again...but your self righteousness will get you there in the end keep going!!!

 

[Maldarker]

Why do you believe the Bible is distorted?

Because it fits their narrative....and if you had the original person stand in front of them saying nope i wrote that they wouldn't believe it.

Swear to God these xtians are so fullof shite...making up a story of a fake "ex muslim arab speaking priest" who happens to say "no no the arabic word makr mea s deceiver and the muslims who say otherwise are all taght to lie"

Lmao

Ezekiel 14:9
9 “‘And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the Lord have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel.

Xtians altered the meaning to entice..when it said "deceive"

Context behind the word

Strong's Number 6601 Hebrew Dictionary of the Old Testament Online Bible with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Brown Driver Briggs Lexicon, Etymology, Translations Definitions Meanings & Key Word Studies - Lexiconcordance.com

Strong's #6601 פָּתָה pathah {paw-thaw'} A primitive root; to open, that is, be (causatively make) roomy; usually figuratively (in a mental or moral sense) to be (causatively make) simple or (in a sinister way) delude. Online Strong's Exhaustive Concordance numbers, Brown-Driver-Briggs...

lexiconcordance.com

Same thing theyre attacking Allah of.

Xtians are the worst ummah imaginable.

No actually you are the most vulgar person i have seen on this board

 

[DesertRose]

Life is a test. The One who created us is testing us as to who is best in faith and deeds.
We are tested with ease and difficulties or good and evil.
To see who has the correct belief and after that who is grateful and who is patient.
Are we able to overcome our prejudices, and our material differences to find out why we are here on earth?
Whilst staying away from those that hinder the path to Allah.
May we be of those who are cognizant of our true purpose in life!
May this world not be the greatest of our concerns and the extent of our knowledge.
May Allah make the path one of ease for all! Ameen!

Guidance is in the hand of Allah. If Allah willed, He could guide all of mankind, for there is nothing that He cannot do on this earth or in the heavens. Nothing happens in His Dominion except that which He wills.

“Say: ‘With Allah is the perfect proof and argument, (i.e. the Oneness of Allah, the sending of His Messengers and His Holy Books, to mankind); had He so willed, He would indeed have guided you all.’” [al-An’am 6:149 – interpretation of the meaning]

But in His Wisdom, Allah has created us with the ability to choose, and He has sent down to us guidance and the Criterion. So whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger will enter Paradise and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger will enter Hell, as Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, proofs have come to you from your Lord, so whosoever sees, will do so for (the good of) his ownself, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm, and I (Muhammad) am not a watcher over you.” [al-An’am 6:104]

The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has no part in guidance; all that he and the Muslims have to do is to explain and convey the message, and show them guidance but they cannot force people to follow it, as Allah said to His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) (interpretation of the meaning):

“And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. So, will you (O Muhammad) then compel mankind, until they become believers?” [Yoonus 10:99]

And Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And the duty of the Messenger is only to convey (the Message) plainly.” [al-‘Ankaboot 29:18]

Guidance is in the Hand of Allah - Islam Question & Answer

islamqa.info

​

 

[The Sojourner]

I've been making this point for over 15 yrs, got called a KAFIR many times for these views.
the problem is that to the christians and muslims, the books contradict each other.

the christians say 'islam rejects THE SON and the crucifixion'
but it doesnt...

if you read the book of Wisdom chapters 1-3. not only do you find that it was a prophecy about Jesus Christ himself and also explained a central topic concerning the nature of the nafs(the serpent, our carnal nature), it also (in chapter 3) perfectly matched verse 4:157 of the Quran in terms of the actual argument about Jesus Christ.

'he only APPEARED TO DIE'
the Quran says 'think not of the slain (in war) as dead, no they are living, but you perceive it not'
literally, Wisdom 1-3 explains how the nafs itself is what causes death..and the death of the nafs, means there is no death, only the appearance of death (physically passing away from this world). it is just as how there was a man imprisoned in hades. It all comes with degrees too. Some are deeply tortured by the '99 headed serpent', whilst others are free from it's harm but still stuck in hades. the only ones who are beyond that level are the ones who's nafs was killed (which the sufis call FANA).

Fana (Sufism) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

this is what Jesus was talking about repeatedly, 'unless you die to the world'.

personally ive struggled heavily with this. money, status, matters..you cant function in the world without it. the sufi stories of wanderers, free of wordly attachment...all take place in the middle east/persia.
you can't live that life in England lmao. it's tooc old. i couldnt sleep outside.
in pakistan many do, many embrace that life, but they still have to live off the donations of people who actually work and donate. the concept of langar, practiced by hindus, muslims and sikhs, those wanderers live off that. free food and they get to sleep inside the courtyard of the mosques, some are even given free rooms.

going back to the 'contradictions between scriptures' topic. the other one being 'islam rejects THE SON', but ive argued that the son is just the judaic symbolic term for LOGOS. the Quran perfectly says that Jesus is THE WORD OF ALLAH. only problem is that muslims tend to think of this in a literal sense as actual scripture.
the sufis like ibn sina embrace neo-platonic greek philosophy and they came upon this term, the logos, translated into arabic as KALAM. So then al ghazali dissed ibn sina for claiming the WORD OF ALLAH/SCRIPTURE is 'eternal', arguing that it is post-causal.

as i read all this, i thought 'am i really smarter than fucking al ghazali?'
truth is, no, not even close..but those guys were just lost in translation really.
we're so lucky we live in the age of information. there is no excuse to be dumb now.

i tell christian protestant types to read the book of Wisdom, they say 'that deviant satanic book that the catholics read?, no thank you, the holy spirit tells me that is a lie, no wonder you like it, you're a satanic muslim'....
Jesus himself, Mary even, would have literally read Wisdom in their lifetime, prob many times over, since back then it was literally part of the bible.
the jewish rabbis who eventually rejected Wisdom, did so in the 2nd century AD....and you only need to read chapters 1-3 to know why they'd reject it (just saying, not hating, but contexts like that do matter and they are true)

It's not uncommon to be called this or that for saying it, people look for what they can try and claim to be a contradiction and it gets misinterpreted, instead of looking for the common thread that runs through it all.

I believe Imran Hosein (who I don't know much about, but have seen a videos of him speaking about this) also has come to the same basic conclusion. He also says that the "substitution theory" is not only wrong, but it is actually sinful, because in believing it people are attributing unrighteousness to ALLAH. I'm sure he gets criticized for this as well, even though it is not difficult to see it, if only people would try.

Agreed, there is a lot of good in Wisdom which used to be part of the Bible, until it was taken out. It matches Sura 4:157 indeed as well as 'think not of the slain (in war) as dead, no they are living, but you perceive it not'. This is spiritual and needs to be looked at as being such, that's why it doesn't make sense to people if they are going to try and think of it in a human way rather than speaking of the spiritual. Quoting from it below:

THE WISDOM OF SOLOMON
2:22. As for the secrets of God, they knew them not: neither hoped they for the wages of righteousness, nor discerned a reward for blameless souls.
2:23. For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of His Own eternity.
2:24. Nevertheless through the envy of the devil death came into the world: and they that are on his side do find it.
3:1. But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and there no torment shall touch them.
3:2. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure is mistaken for misery,
3:3. And their going from us to be utter destruction: but they are in peace.
3:4. For though they be punished in the sight of men, yet their hope is full of immortality.
3:5. And having been a little chastised, they shall be greatly rewarded: for God proved them, and found them worthy for Himself.
3:6. As gold in the furnace He hath tried them, and received them as a burnt offering.
3:7. And in the time of their visitation they shall shine, and run to and fro like sparks among the stubble (Dan. 12:3; Mal. 4:3; Matt. 13:40-43).
3:8. They shall judge the nations, and have dominion over the people, and their Lord shall reign for ever.
3:9. They that put their trust in Him shall understand the truth: and such as be faithful in love shall abide with Him: for grace and mercy is to His holy people, and He hath care for His Elect.

 

[DarntheDarner]

I feel bad for poor Claire
on this thread.
Seems like the typical
gang up.
It is pretty horrible to see this
kind of thing on here.
I guess that's what religious
debate can turn into.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Firstly- unless you read Arabic, you have never read the Quran.

Furthermore, what you state here: "Qur'an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers."

this is a fake translation. you are basing your argument on a fake translation.

So Islam/the Quran cannot be properly understood in any other language besides Arabic?

Then it absolutely CANNOT be from God because God is the one who created all the different languages in the first place & does not struggle with language barriers because He is Almighty.

Are you starting to realize that we are not worshiping the same God?

Seriously, you should stop wasting your time with Allah because that story does NOT have a happy ending.

Also, that was not a fake translation, the word means deceiver, I spoke with a man whose first language is Arabic and he confirmed it.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

jahtruth... the way home or face the fire.... these people on here promoting some new(ish) religion that got made up where they supposedly follow the Quran and the Bible while I doubt they're really in line with either

Ohhh, ok thanks.

Yeah, any Christian or Muslim can tell you that you can’t blend the two.

If someone says they believe both, they really believe neither.

 

[Maldarker]

So Islam/the Quran cannot be properly understood in any other language besides Arabic?

Then it absolutely CANNOT be from God because God is the one who created all the different languages in the first place & does not struggle with language barriers because He is Almighty.

Are you starting to realize that we are not worshiping the same God?

Seriously, you should stop wasting your time with Allah because that story does NOT have a happy ending.

Also, that was not a fake translation, the word means deceiver, I spoke with a man whose first language is Arabic and he confirmed it.

He's not scholarly enough claire come on! No credentials or youtube or or see where i'm going

 

[Orwell's mentor]

I feel bad for poor Claire
on this thread.
Seems like the typical
gang up.
It is pretty horrible to see this
kind of thing on here.
I guess that's what religious
debate can turn into.

"Gang up'? Just don't attack or sully other religions. Why would one have to demoralize a religion for one's own to exist? There are many faiths in this world, why the need to try and demoralize the Muslim one?

 

[Daze]

I feel bad for poor Claire
on this thread.
Seems like the typical
gang up.
It is pretty horrible to see this
kind of thing on here.
I guess that's what religious
debate can turn into.

Only because you're a trinny like her. As i pointed out above. Claire has been arguing the same points for literally 7 years and counting.

What is "horrible" exactly? You feel sorry for her, but she's debating in a thread about Tawheed. I really hope the irony is not lost on you. She's obviously not in this thread to defend herself if you get my point.


Claire is in this thread because she wants to be, while all of us know one side isn't convincing the other side of anything what so ever. The past decade has proven this.

But continue to give your biased opinion. You couldn't care less about Soljourner earlier because they're not on "team trinny".
But will pitch in for Claire? Why is that pray tell? As Tidal used to say.. spot the difference?


Not that i have anything against Claire, just saying the bias is obvious. If you want to "help Claire".. no one is stopping you.

 

[Daze]

Swear to God these xtians are so fullof shite...making up a story of a fake "ex muslim arab speaking priest" who happens to say "no no the arabic word makr mea s deceiver and the muslims who say otherwise are all taght to lie"

Lmao

Ezekiel 14:9
9 “‘And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the Lord have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel.

Xtians altered the meaning to entice..when it said "deceive"

Context behind the word

Strong's Number 6601 Hebrew Dictionary of the Old Testament Online Bible with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Brown Driver Briggs Lexicon, Etymology, Translations Definitions Meanings & Key Word Studies - Lexiconcordance.com

Strong's #6601 פָּתָה pathah {paw-thaw'} A primitive root; to open, that is, be (causatively make) roomy; usually figuratively (in a mental or moral sense) to be (causatively make) simple or (in a sinister way) delude. Online Strong's Exhaustive Concordance numbers, Brown-Driver-Briggs...

lexiconcordance.com

Same thing theyre attacking Allah of.

Xtians are the worst ummah imaginable.

I think alot of it is bias. What they hear confirms what they already believed, so its taken as truth. Confirmation bias as they say.

End of the day most of it is ego and the absolute rejection of ever being wrong.


This is an old screenshot, why "herd" is highlighted. But the entire quote holds merit for this thread.. and every other thread about religion on these boards.



There is not a single soul here who is open to the other side, only to push their own beliefs hoping to convert everyone else.

Truth awaits us all in the end.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

The sources brought for you are all Arabic speakers and scholars, so that claim by your fellow worshiper is irrelevant.

Let us look at the verse in context:
In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

42. The angels said, “O Mary, God has chosen you, and has purified you. He has chosen you over all the women of the world.

43. “O Mary, be devoted to your Lord, and bow down, and kneel with those who kneel.”

44. These are accounts from the Unseen, which We reveal to you. You were not with them when they cast their lots as to which of them would take charge of Mary; nor were you with them as they quarreled.

45. The Angels said, “O Mary, God gives you good news of a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, well-esteemed in this world and the next, and one of the nearest.

46. He will speak to the people from the crib, and in adulthood, and will be one of the righteous.”

47. She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child, when no man has touched me?” He said, “It will be so. God creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.”

48. And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel.

49. A messenger to the Children of Israel: “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I make for you out of clay the figure of a bird; then I breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God’s leave. And I heal the blind and the leprous, and I revive the dead, by God’s leave. And I inform you concerning what you eat, and what you store in your homes. In that is a sign for you, if you are believers.”

50. “And verifying what lies before me of the Torah, and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; so fear God, and obey me.”

51. “God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.”

52. When Jesus sensed disbelief on their part, he said, “Who are my allies towards God?” The disciples said, “We are God’s allies; we have believed in God, and bear witness that we submit.”

53. “Our Lord, we have believed in what You have revealed, and we have followed the Messenger, so count us among the witnesses.”

54. They planned, and God planned; but God is the Best of planners.

55. God said, “O Jesus, I am terminating your life, and raising you to Me, and clearing you of those who disbelieve. And I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return; then I will judge between you regarding what you were disputing.

56. As for those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe punishment, in this world and the next, and they will have no helpers.

57. And as for those who believe and do good works, He will give them their rewards in full. God does not love the unjust.”

58. This is what We recite to you of the Verses and the Wise Reminder.

59. The likeness of Jesus in God’s sight is that of Adam: He created him from dust, then said to him, “Be,” and he was.

60. The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
3:42-60

More on this:


The historical background for the verse is that the Jews ‘planned’ evil in order to get Jesus arrested and crucified. And Allah in the verse says as they planned evil, so too Allah planned to thwart their wicked plan. Christian missionaries have an issue with the words used for both the Jews and Allah. They prefer to translate this way:



The above translation does not exist. It is only made up by crazy deluded missionaries in order to lead people astray. Arabic word(s) makr, Makara can be used negatively and for good. So when the Jews planned to get Jesus arrested and crucified, that was evil, whereas when Allah thwarted their evil plan by saving Jesus, this was good. So, the claim by missionaries that Allah is a deceiver for helping one of the Prophet’s from slaughter at the hands of evil, wicked people, these claims have no bearing on the passage historically.

MAKR
Has two meanings:
1. Plotting or planning evil intent.
2. Planning for a good purpose: ‘Wa Makaru wa Makara Allah wa’LLahu Khairul Makereen’ (Surah Aali Imran 3:54. They planned and Allah planned and Allah is the best of planners’.
Makara = they plotted. Makara = He planned.
Makkar = plotter.
Makereen = plotters. [4][

The meaning of the Noble Qur’an – Abdullah Yusuf Ali

6078: Makara is applied both to plotting with an evil purpose and planning with a good purpose. Cf. 3:54, and 0. 392 ‘And the unbelievers plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.’ [5]

The Message of The Quran – Muhammad Asad



The above Islamic scholars make it quite clear that when Makr is used for Allah there is no deception. It depends on the object, hence, was it for a good purpose or evil? When Allah plans to thwart the evil plans of disbelievers against Jesus, that is good. How is this in any way evil? Is it wrong to help an innocent person and stopping an evil plan?
(for their full discussion go to the source given below)

Response To Critics Claim ‘Allah Is A Deceiver’ – Quran (3:54) - Islam Compass

Listen to this ‘ ’ – (:) Mohamad Mostafa NassarTwitter:@NassarMohamadMR The aim of this article is to answer the claims made by Christian missionaries that Allah is a ‘deceiver’, and a ‘liar’, dealing with the word used in 8:58, 7:99 And 3:54. The verse we are going

islamcompass.com

It is up to you Claire, whom you believe and what you believe.
We are only tasked with conveying the message.
Guidance is from Allah who has a clear vision of our hearts.
You should ask the Creator ( not Prophet Jesus peace be upon him) for guidance.
If you want the truth The Creator will support you if you sincerely ask Him.
May Allah guide you to the truth! Ameen!
This thread is about Tawheed The Unity of God and the necessity of worshiping Him and not the Triune one,. Also, the importance of this for the next life and for entering paradise and not entering the Hellfire as a result of the polytheism of the trinity.
That is the crux of the matter not about a word that was mistranslated by some deceiving missionaries.

No, the word is never used for good, it is negative.

And why does Allah engage in the same tactics the humans use while claiming to be superior?
They deceive, so he deceived back. Even if it says He planned that still reflects negatively since planning is what we do when we don’t know the outcome of a situation and prepare for it ahead of time—something that would be unnecessary for an omniscient entity.

The Quran continues to point to these kinds of clues that it was written by someone with the mindset of a human. If you’re honest with yourself, you must have noticed

Also, before I believed the Gospel and got saved, I did reach out & prayed to the Creator, the Almighty, to reveal Himself & make His truth known to me—WHATEVER it was. I was willing to accept whatever book or religion He led me to; I only wanted to know the TRUTH.

I did not even call to Jesus then, I cried out to the “Creator” with all of my heart, soul, and spirit and HE pointed me to Jesus Christ.

And everything about the Gospel of Jesus Christ suddenly became clear, and I realized that I was a sinner that deserves Hell but that Jesus already paid my sins and I BELIEVED it.
And in an instant—like a blink of the eyes—God gave me salvation and I was changed.

I knew that I had just passed from death to everlasting life and would never see Hell, and true, lasting PEACE covered my heart.

That was over 20 years ago and I have known it ever since.

We have been blessed with this life, DR, but it is so very, very short and none of us are guaranteed even one more day. We simply do not have time to waste. You know that.

People say life is a test but I don’t think it is. I think it is a search for the truth, and the thing about the truth is, it never changes.

You can ignore it, hide from it, accuse it, hate it, resist it or refuse it but it will still always remain the truth and there is freedom in accepting it.


“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” -John -4:6 KJB


“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” -John 8:32 KJB

 

[Claire Rousseau]

I feel bad for poor Claire
on this thread.
Seems like the typical
gang up.
It is pretty horrible to see this
kind of thing on here.
I guess that's what religious
debate can turn into.

Aw that’s sweet, thank you.

I only do it because I know the eternal consequences that awaits them unless they receive the truth, and if I can do something to help pull even one of them out of the fire….well, it was all worth it then.

 

[Daze]

No, the word is never used for good, it is negative.
View attachment 89733
And why does Allah engage in the same tactics the humans use while claiming to be superior?
They deceive, so he deceived back. Even if it says He planned that still reflects negatively since planning is what we do when we don’t know the outcome of a situation and prepare for it ahead of time—something that would be unnecessary for an omniscient entity.

The Quran continues to point to these kinds of clues that it was written by someone with the mindset of a human. If you’re honest with yourself, you must have noticed

Also, before I believed the Gospel and got saved, I did reach out & prayed to the Creator, the Almighty, to reveal Himself & make His truth known to me—WHATEVER it was. I was willing to accept whatever book or religion He led me to; I only wanted to know the TRUTH.

I did not even call to Jesus then, I cried out to the “Creator” with all of my heart, soul, and spirit and HE pointed me to Jesus Christ.

And everything about the Gospel of Jesus Christ suddenly became clear, and I realized that I was a sinner that deserves Hell but that Jesus already paid my sins and I BELIEVED it.
And in an instant—like a blink of the eyes—God gave me salvation and I was changed.

I knew that I had just passed from death to everlasting life and would never see Hell, and true, lasting PEACE covered my heart.

That was over 20 years ago and I have known it ever since.

We have been blessed with this life, DR, but it is so very, very short and none of us are guaranteed even one more day. We simply do not have time to waste. You know that.

People say life is a test but I don’t think it is. I think it is a search for the truth, and the thing about the truth is, it never changes.

You can ignore it, hide from it, accuse it, hate it, resist it or refuse it but it will still always remain the truth and there is freedom in accepting it.


“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” -John -4:6 KJB


“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” -John 8:32 KJB

Just curious. Do you know any Arabic at all? Can you say hello in Arabic?

Here, lets have a basic convo.



I put it in an image because anyone can use a translator. Very basic opening in Arabic. Can you read it?

By all means, reply in English. I'd just like to see if you personally know any Arabic what so ever.