Without Tawheed, all your deeds are useless and worthless.

[DesertRose]

I think you’ve misunderstood…what I am saying is that GOD created man in HIS (God’s) image & likeness, not the other way around.

In Islam, we do not agree with this understanding.
This is definitely a biblical concept whichever way you phrase it.
God is not a physical being in Islam.
He is UnCreated, and He begetteth not nor is he begotten.
God's attributes belong to Him alone.
Such as The Creator, The Provider, The One God. The Most Compassionate, The Appreciative
Humans can strive to acquire some of His attributes such as strength, forbearance, generosity, mercy, forgiveness and more in a manner that would be befitting for a created being to acquire.
and we insist that there is nothing Equivalent or Comparable to Him.

No vision can encompass Him, but He encompasses all vision. For He is the Most Subtle, All-Aware.
6:103​

 

[A Freeman]

There is so much to unpack here.

There's nothing to "unpack" as the TRUTH has already been shared for anyone with spiritual eyes to see.

When God says ONE He means exactly what He says because God always says exactly what He means. God is NOT the author of confusion.

How many of God Prophets referred to a 3=1 god? ZERO.
How many times did Jesus refer to a 3=1 god? ZERO.
How many times did Jesus claim to be God? ZERO
How many times did Jesus claim to be equal to God? ZERO.
How many references are there in the Bible to "God the Son"? ZERO.
How many references are there in the Bible to "God the Holy Spirit"? ZERO.
How many references are there in the Bible to "trinity" or "triune god" or "3-in-1" or "not one but three and not three but one", etc.? ZERO.

Anyone who believes in the such obviously anti-Biblical concepts very obviously doesn't believe Christ-Jesus, who very plainly stated that God the Father is His God.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to MY Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY Father, and your Father; and [to] MY God, and your God.

According to the words of Jesus, Jesus has the same God that all of us have: the One True God and Father of us ALL: the "I AM" (YHWH in Hebrew).

Until these FACTS are understood from a spiritual point-of-view, i.e. read with spiritual eyes by an awakened soul, they will never see much less enter the Kingdom of God.

John 17:3 And THIS is Life Eternal, that they might KNOW Thee the ONLY True God, AND Christ the Saviour, whom Thou hast sent.

 

[A Freeman]

Every "Muslim" needs to read the previous message/post and also accept that Christ-Jesus, i.e. Christ, the Saviour, is The Messenger of God, exactly as the Koran/Quran CONFIRMS in multiple places (e.g. Sura 4:157-158; Sura 7:157-158; Sura 58:22).

The spiritually blind imams in "Islam" wrongly teach that the real Bible has been corrupted, and allegedly can no longer be trusted, even though the Koran/Quran specifically states that can NEVER happen.

Sura 15:9-11
15:9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
15:10. We did send Apostles before thee amongst the religious sects (John 17:21; Sura 6:159) of old:
15:11. But never came an Apostle to them but they mocked him.

Sura 32:23. We did indeed aforetime give The Book (The Torah) to Moses: be then NOT IN DOUBT of its (The Torah) reaching (THEE): and We made it a Guide to the Children of Israel.

The Koran/Quran CONFIRMS that Satan WILL send people (clergy) to try to tamper with the Old Covenant, New Covenant and the Quran, to test us to see if our hearts are still hardened to the truth or not (Sura 6:112-117; Sura 22:52-55).

ALL of Scripture is written with numerous layers of redundancy so that any attempts to alter God's Word -- adding or taking away from it -- sticks out like a sore thumb. That doesn't mean that Satan's little helpers won't try; it only means that they can NEVER be successful in actually corrupting God's Word. When something is corrupt, it is no longer salvageable or usable.

Muslims can "see" this redundancy in the 3=1 nonsense that "Christians" espouse, where God has provided us with HUNDREDS of verses which prove beyond any reasonable doubt that there is no 3=1 deity and that Jesus isn't God, nor ever claimed to be. Why then can "Muslims" not see the same attempts have been made to alter the Quran, in an effort to discredit the Bible, e.g. Sura 2:125 and Sura 2:127, where "Ishmael" has very obviously been substituted for "Isaac"? Or where "Mecca" has been deceitfully inserted for the word "makkah" in Sura 48:24? The word "makkah" mean physical altercation or conflict, NOT "peace" (Salem).

The name Jerusalem means "City of Peace", which is exactly where Abraham offered up Isaac, NOT Ishmael (Gen. 22:2; Sura 2:126).

There are over 800 direct references to Jerusalem in the Bible, and over 100 more as "Zion". Conversely, there are ZERO references to the city of Mecca in the Bible or the Quran, when the Quran isn't intentionally mistranslated in ONE verse.

Sura 39:23. "I AM" has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, CONSISTENT WITH ITSELF, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of "I AM"'s praises (Prov. 1:7; 9:10). Such is the Guidance from "I AM": He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as "I AM" leaves to stray, can have none to guide.

It is God's Will that all TRUE Believers UNITE in a SINGLE Brotherhood determined to learn HIS Ways, His Commandments and His Judgements, found only in His Law, and exemplified in the flesh by Christ-Jesus. Anyone who doesn't recognize and accept that all three parts of The Book (Bible) -- Old Covenant/Testament, New Covenant/Testament and the Koran/Quran -- are all God's Word is still spiritually asleep, regardless of what they may try to con themselves into believing to the contrary.

 

[Daze]

Because when I read the Quran I hear the voice of a HUMAN author—NOT God, and my suspicions are confirmed when I observe the characteristics of Allah from the Quran, such as deception:

Honestly, what human can produce this?

The God I know CANNOT lie:

“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” ….Titus 1:2 KJB

As 90's has said, its a bad translation.



It is so hard to look up Quran dot com? I literally have like 5 Quran websites bookmarked. One has to wonder where you got your translations from? Clearly sites with an agenda.

And how does a 2 yr old with good rote memorization prove the Quran is divinely inspired?

Where did i say it was a proof? I simply compared it with a western child. Can you produce one that has memorized the alphabet? If you want proofs Claire the Quran is literally full of them.


btw Claire, i remember this thread you made like 6, 7 years ago. It had all these points how Jesus was all-knowing, omnipotent and so on. I remember destroying every point with Bible verses back when Scimi and Tarek were both still active.

How long are we gonna do this? At this point i think its best we agree to disagree. I mean you're bringing fake Quran quotes, you obviously get your Islam from hate sites so there is no point in wasting time on you.

Truth awaits us both in the end Claire, may God guide you away from polytheism.

 

[The Sojourner]

as much as we are both trying to defend islam in different ways..
your arguments are against the Quran when it comes to the bible.

in the 7th century, as the Quran was revealed, in the present tense/context, Allah literally referred to the Torah and Gospel as TRUTH.
The verse speaking of the 'corruption' in the bible, was taken out of context and even the muslim translators commited the same act of corruption.
the corruption refers to tafsir/interpretations/tranlations. the prophet SAW literally held the torah, placed in on a pillow and said 'I BELIEVE IN YOU'. All he was concerned about with regards to the bible, was that muslims were trusting in the madani jews to interpret/translate the torah into arabic correctly. So he told the muslims to avoid those translations.

we live in the age of information today and can do a lot of research. The Torah and Gospel in the time of prophet Mohammad SAW was the Greek Septuagint

Septuagint - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

this has been the version used since the 2nd century.
The translations are based on this. The masoretic version which the jews and catholics use (i might be wrong) are also older than the Quran.

At the very least muslims can say that the Greek septuaguint, which the majority follow, is THE WORD OF ALLAH/TRUTH etc..and that any corruption occurs only in translations/interpetations.
Yet that is also true for the Quran.

just as you might try to argue that the greek septuaguing is a later compilation, ie after the prophets...the same is true for the 'usmanic Quran'.the greek septuaguint being a translation in of itself, is still enforsed by the Quran and hence it has divine confirmation.

you know what doesnt have divine confirmation? the hadith...

Great point being made here. It even asks in the Quran why they come to you (Muhammad pbuh) for judgment when they HAVE (present tense) God's Law / The Torah with them. And says that the Christians should judge by the Gospel that they have. It also says to have no doubt about the Torah and it's reaching (you). So the Quran confirms the validity of the Torah and the Gospel, as it says many places. Only it points out wrong interpretation of it to correct it, and tells the Bible people (people of the Book) not to exceed or exaggerate in their religion beyond the truth.
Again, good point made.

 

[The Sojourner]

Because when I read the Quran I hear the voice of a HUMAN author—NOT God, and my suspicions are confirmed when I observe the characteristics of Allah from the Quran, such as deception:







The God I know CANNOT lie:

“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” ….Titus 1:2 KJB


And how does a 2 yr old with good rote memorization prove the Quran is divinely inspired?

That's a bad translation, it should say plan, not deceive.
They plotted and they planned, but God is the Best of Planners.

Also regarding forgiveness, remember Jesus said this:

Matthew
6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So, to have our trespasses forgiven, we must likewise be willing to forgive other's trespasses. That's how it works.

Luke
6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of The Highest: for He is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

It does not mean that God will not punish people for sin.
He is the Most Loving and Most Merciful and accepts repentance.
It must be TRUE repentance though.
But He may still punish us even though He forgives us, to teach us that sin has consequences.
But even so, He is still being Merciful, if when He punishes us for sins.

Jesus also said in another place:

Luke
17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and IF HE REPENT, forgive him.
17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

In the Quran I believe it also says that people have the option to require punishment for sins, or to forgive.
And that forgiveness counts as an atonement for one's own sins.

In cases where someone's sinful behaviour is serious and they become a detriment and danger to society, showing that they are unrepenting, then that is obviously a different situation, because society needs to be protected from serious sin. In this, we are helped, by The Law (in how Justice should be administered).

1 John
5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing in accordance with His Will, He heareth us:
5:15 And if we know that He hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of Him.
5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

 

[The Sojourner]

No, you have to be saved to understand the Holy Bible. That is why many “Christians” don’t see eye-to-eye on doctrines; the vast majority of people who say they are Christians are unsaved and spiritually blinded to God’s Word, but they will not realize this unless they get saved.

It is true that many "Christians" don't see eye-to-eye on doctrines. The Holy Quran gives us the reason why:

Sura
5:15. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a Covenant, but they forgot the best part of the Message that was sent them: so We estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to The Day of Judgment. And soon "I AM" will show them what it is they have done.

5:16. O People of The Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in The Book (Bible), and passing over much (that is now unnecessary - the ceremonial rituals and sacrifices that were only a school-teacher to bring men to Christ - Gal. 3:24-25):
5:17. There hath come to you from "I AM" a (new) Light and an understandable Book,-
5:18. Wherewith "I AM" guideth all who seek His good pleasure to The Way of Peace and Safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His Will, unto the Light,- guideth them to The Way that is Straight (and Strait).
5:19. In blasphemy indeed are those that say that "I AM" is Jesus the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against "I AM", if His Will were to destroy Jesus the son of Mary, his mother, and all - every one that is on the Earth? For to God belongeth the Dominion of the heavens and the Earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things."
5:20. (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of "I AM", and His beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are only men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to God belongeth the Dominion of the heavens and the Earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"
5:21. O People of The Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) Our Apostles, lest ye should say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no Warner (from evil)": but now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a Warner (from evil). And "I AM" hath power over all things.

Also (see below, it mentions about forgiveness which acts as atonement - compare with what Christ said) it says that there IS Guidance and Light in The Law (the Torah), confirming it (in the present tense). Not "was", but "is". -

5:47. It was We Who revealed The Law (to Moses): therein is Guidance and Light. By its Standard (Criterion) have been judged the Jews, by the Prophets who bowed to "I AM"'s Will; the Rabbis and the Doctors of Law: for to them was entrusted the protection of "I AM"'s Book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My Signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the Light of) what "I AM" hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
5:48. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself (Matt. 5:44). And if any fail to judge by (the Light of) what "I AM" hath revealed, they are (no better than) wrong-doers (and are the accomplices of the wrong-doers and equally guilty) (Deut. 17:10-12).

See below, the Quran is confirming the Gospel as being true (note it is written in the present tense, like Aspiring Soul also pointed out):

5:49. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming The Law (The Torah) that had come before him: We sent him The Gospel: therein is Guidance and Light, and confirmation of The Law that had come before him (Matt. 5:17-20): a Guidance and a Warning to those who fear "I AM".
5:50. Let the People of The Gospel judge by what "I AM" hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the Light of) what "I AM" hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel (and are equally guilty (Deut. 17:10-12)).

Then it shows that the Quran is a conformation of the Scripture (Torah and Gospel) that came before it:

5:51. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety (Surah 32:23): so judge between them by what "I AM" hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have We prescribed The Law and The Open Way. If "I AM" had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His Plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to "I AM"; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters about which ye dispute;
5:52. And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what "I AM" hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee away from any of that (teaching) which "I AM" hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crimes it is "I AM"'s purpose to punish them. And truly MOST men are rebellious.

This takes some study; but it is well worth it; because when this is done, we can soon find that the teachings are consistent.
It then becomes clear, that it all came from God, as the teachings confirm.
Hope you will decide to look into it and be able to see the harmony.
May God Bless and Guide us all and may Peace be upon you/us.

(Allah means "The God", in the Arabic language, or as it has been rendered in the above translation, "The "I AM" ).

As we know, this example sadly can also be applied to the modern day "Muslims" too, because they have been divided into different groups (sects), that each follow different sets of "Hadith" (alleged revelations or traditions) like for instance the Sunni and Shia groups. So, the example of this can be applied to anyone reading. We have lots of divisions, so we can all learn from it.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Great point being made here. It even asks in the Quran why they come to you (Muhammad pbuh) for judgment when they HAVE (present tense) God's Law / The Torah with them. And says that the Christians should judge by the Gospel that they have. It also says to have no doubt about the Torah and it's reaching (you). So the Quran confirms the validity of the Torah and the Gospel, as it says many places. Only it points out wrong interpretation of it to correct it, and tells the Bible people (people of the Book) not to exceed or exaggerate in their religion beyond the truth.
Again, good point made.

Aspiring Soul is a "Muslim" who does weird stuff like try to mix Islam with Hinduism. No, from the correct Islamic view, the Bible is not the kalaam of Allah.

 

[The Sojourner]

Aspiring Soul is a "Muslim" who does weird stuff like try to mix Islam with Hinduism. No, from the correct Islamic view, the Bible is not the kalaam of Allah.

Is the Islamic view actually correct though? Or is it the Quran that is correct?
The Quran speaks in the present tense of the Torah and Gospel as valid - what they have in their possession.
This was at the time the Quran was revealed.
And since it was true then, it means it is also true now.
Because, the Bible we have now, is the same Bible (Torah and Gospel) that they had in their possession then, and that the Quran clearly and unambiguously instructs people to use, for Guidance, a Light, and for Judgement.

It's just like the Christian view, which is different from the Biblical view.
The Islamic view, is different from the Quranic (and by extension, Biblical) view.

This is because of accepting Hadiths other than the Quran.

The Quran says that IT IS the Hadith (and what other hadiths than this, will you follow?)

For instance see:

Following Hadith Besides The Quran Is Idol Worship

The only hadith the followers of the Quran are to follow is the Quran. To follow any other hadith besides the Quran is to go against the very verses of the Quran itself. For this, God provides us a…

qurantalkblog.com

[45:6] These are GOD’s revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?

تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ

[7:185] Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things GOD has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which Hadith, beside this, do they believe in?

أَوَلَمْ يَنْظُرُوا فِي مَلَكُوتِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ مِنْ شَيْءٍ وَأَنْ عَسَىٰ أَنْ يَكُونَ قَدِ اقْتَرَبَ أَجَلُهُمْ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ

[77:50] Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold?

فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ


This is not intended to start a new argument, as this discussion has been mentioned here many time before. It's just to show what the Quran (and the Bible) have to say about it, so that those interested may be made aware of it and can look into it, as they may be guided.

Like it has been mentioned by others, the attitude is very much one of "here is the truth; it is up to you, to either take it, or leave it" i.e. "The choice, as always, is yours".

It is Guidance, given to make us aware and to warn us and as a correction for those who may wish to heed it.

This is just showing it and not meant for starting a new (or restarting an old) argument.

Peace be upon you.

The site also has a video:

 

[Daze]

Great point being made here. It even asks in the Quran why they come to you (Muhammad pbuh) ..

Just curious. Pretty sure you said you wasn't a Muslim in the Unity thread. But when i see you quote the Quran and even invoke blessings on the last prophet (saw). I have to wonder why you have not taken Islam as your own path to God?

Do you believe the Quran to be the unchanged, direct word of God? If so what do you think of this verse?

And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.
(3:85 Quran)


I think Islams actual message has to reach you for this to apply. But if you're sending blessings on the prophet (saw), then you have accepted him as a messenger.

If you also believe God is one, alone without partner.. Then only Islam will be accepted from you because you have received the actual message.
In that there is no god but God and prophet Muhammad was his final messenger.

I suggest you ask God to lead you to the path that is the most pleasing to him.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Is the Islamic view actually correct though? Or is it the Quran that is correct?

Aren't you a non-Muslim? What would you know about tafsir? No non-Muslim has any business trying to tell us how to interpret the Quran. I doubt your hands have ever held a book of tafsir.

 

[The Sojourner]

I suggest you ask God to lead you to the path that is the most pleasing to him.

Thank you.

Yes, indeed, there is no God but God:

3:2. Allah (God). There is no God but He,- the Living, the Self-Existing (YHWH - "I AM"), Eternal.

3:18. There is no God but He: that is the witness of God, His angels, and those endued with Knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no God but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.

Yes, Muhammad (pbuh) was indeed one of God's Messengers. I believe it is not needed however, to add the name of Muhammad (pbuh) in proclaiming the Shahada (Faith), since the Quran says that God indeed knows His Messengers, and that the men of faith say "We make no distinction between one and another of His Apostles.":

2:285. The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth God, His angels, His Books, and His Apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

63:1. When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of "I AM"." Yea, "I AM" knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger, and "I AM" beareth witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars (Matthew 15:8).

Personally, it is found to be beneficial to read this fully translated version, of Sura 3:85, as it helps to understand the meaning:

3:85. If anyone desires a religion other than (submission to God's Will), never will it be accepted of him and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

I also believe that the Holy Quran and the Holy Bible are the Scriptures and are the Books of God.

P.S. Muhammad (pbuh) is Seal of the Prophets, but it does not mean no more Messengers would be sent. Islam agrees that Christ (The Messiah and one of God's Messengers) would return (be sent again), and that is after the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad (pbuh). Seal of the Prophets therefore means the Quran is a confirmation of the Prophecies of God, and that there will be no new Prophesies, since God's Prophesies have been delivered already (in His Books) and is therefore completed.

 

[The Sojourner]

Aren't you a non-Muslim? What would you know about tafsir? No non-Muslim has any business trying to tell us how to interpret the Quran. I doubt your hands have ever held a book of tafsir.

It was only asking the question, and showing by comparison the teaching of the Holy Quran. A Muslim should follow the Quran (Teaching of God) rather than the teachings (or interpretations) of men.

Acts
5:29 Then Peter and the [other] Apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

 

[Daze]

Yes, Muhammad (pbuh) was indeed one of God's Messengers. I believe it is not needed however, to add the name of Muhammad (pbuh) in proclaiming the Shahada (Faith), since the Quran says that God indeed knows His Messengers, and that the men of faith say "We make no distinction between one and another of His Apostles.":

It is the testimony of faith. It is the first pillar upon which everything is based.

3:85. If anyone desires a religion other than (submission to God's Will), never will it be accepted of him and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

This is why they say if its not in Arabic its not the Quran. Looking at the verse itself we can see the word that is used is literally Islam, الإسلم



Islam often translated as "submission" to God, is clearly much more then that. Islam is a complete system with a say on absolutely everything you can imagine. It is a complete way of life. One where God himself gave direction and laid out the details.

I also believe that the Holy Quran and the Holy Bible are the Scriptures and are the Books of God.

Yes, true. All books come from the same deity. The God of Abraham.

However the Injeel and Torah have been changed by mans hand. I shouldn't have to point past usury to prove this point.

P.S. Muhammad (pbuh) is Seal of the Prophets, but it does not mean no more Messengers would be sent. Islam agrees that Christ (The Messiah and one of God's Messengers) would return (be sent again), and that is after the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad (pbuh). Seal of the Prophets therefore means the Quran is a confirmation of the Prophecies of God, and that there will be no new Prophesies, since God's Prophesies have been delivered already (in His Books) and is therefore completed.

You sound like an Ahmadi now.

Jesus (as) was already sent. He is Returning. He is not a new prophet in anyway, shape or from. Jesus is gonna re-instate the old laws.
Such as forbidding pork and decreeing death for adulterers.

Indeed, Prophet Muhammad was the last and there will never be another nabi after him.

Tirmidhi 2840


Bukhari 3455


Muslim 523a


Tirmidhi 3686


Bukhari 3535


Tirmidhi 2219

 

[The Sojourner]

@Daze

I don't believe in the (fairytale?) hadiths.

Impurity of dogs - Command to kill black dogs

Are dogs pure or impure Say Lawful for you are all good foods and game caught by what you have trained of hunting animals which you train as Allah has taught you Quran 54 Ibn Mughaffal reported that the Messenger of Allah sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam ordered killing the dogs and then said “What...

www.islamweb.net

According to the "rulings" of some, black puppies are evil and should be killed, and they attribute this lunacy to alleged "sayings of the prophet".

Where in the Quran does God say this? Nowhere!

I had 2 black dogs as a child and my experience with them was that they are definitely not evil. Quite the opposite, they were both lovely and loyal pets that dutifully helped to guard the house in which we grew up. And they were happy and grateful, for whatever we gave them. The truth of the matter, is that it is WE who are evil, not black dogs. In fact black dogs (or any other colour of dogs) are much better creatures, than we all are.

Matthew
7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask Him?

Dogs don't know any better, than to just be what they are. We on the other hand, are gifted with the ability to be able to know better, and so, we really should be.

The preposterous idea that some people get from "hadiths" that supposedly has the prophet saying that black puppy dogs are evil, and therefore must be killed, is a ridiculously insane idea. That is most likely an evident mockery fabricated by enemies.

It is said, that about 99% of the alleged "hadiths" attributed to Muhammad (pbuh) that were collected 200 years after his death, were thrown out as being untrustworthy; and that in the remaining 1% of the allegedly "trustworthy" hadiths, there are many contradictions found, not only with the Quran itself but also within the body of "trustworthy hadiths" itself.

People should free themselves of evil man-made "teachings" such as this. This is also why organised religions are so dangerous, because it teaches people to adhere to things that God never Commanded.

Pork was declared unclean already in the Torah. It is known to be very unhealthy and should not be consumed.

The testimony upon which everything is based, is God's Testimony / Witness - Sura 3:18, and it is also found in the Torah.

The real testimony of Faith is found in the Quran, just as it is also found before this, in the Bible.

 

[Daze]

@Daze

I don't believe in the (fairytale?) hadiths.

Impurity of dogs - Command to kill black dogs

Are dogs pure or impure Say Lawful for you are all good foods and game caught by what you have trained of hunting animals which you train as Allah has taught you Quran 54 Ibn Mughaffal reported that the Messenger of Allah sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam ordered killing the dogs and then said “What...

www.islamweb.net

According to the "rulings" of some, black puppies are evil and should be killed, and the attribute this lunacy, to "sayings of the prophet".

Where in the Quran does God say this? Nowhere!

I had 2 black dogs as a child and my experience with them was that they are definitely not evil. Quite the opposite, they were both lovely and loyal pets that dutifully helped to guard the house in which we grew up. The preposterous idea that some people get from "hadiths" that supposedly has the prophet saying that black puppy dogs are evil, and therefore must be killed, is a ridiculously insane idea. That is most likely an evident mockery fabricated by enemies.

It is said, that about 99% of the alleged "hadiths" attributed to Muhammad (pbuh) that were collected 200 years after his death, were thrown out as being untrustworthy; and that in the remaining 1% of the allegedly "trustworthy" hadiths, there are many contradictions found, not only with the Quran itself but also within the body of "trustworthy hadiths" itself.

Pork was declared unclean already in the Torah. It is known to be very unhealthy and should not be consumed.

The testimony upon which everything is based, is God's Testimony / Witness - Sura 3:18

The real testimony of Faith is found in the Quran, as it is also found in the Bible.

Black dogs are frequently djinn. They are devils manifested. I actually started a thread on this. Maybe you should read it?

Dog's in Islam

It is common knowledge dogs are not allowed inside in a Muslim home due to being unclean, such as dragging their rears across the carpet to scratch themselves spreading feces. But there is nothing wrong with having a dog that is kept outside. Anyway, i remember about a year ago @Red Sky at...

vigilantcitizenforums.com

Did the prophet (saw) say to kill every black dog? No, he didn't.





There are fabricated hadith out there, this is why chain of narration is important. There are people who spent there entire lives learning and memorizing hadith.

Have you heard of Imam Bukhari? What is he known for?




The 2 minute video relates a well known story if you think hadith has no importance.

To ignore the hadith entirely is to ignore the prophet (saw) entirely.


Perhaps ask the Almighty to help you understand it? As your beliefs about dogs are incorrect.

There is nothing wrong with a Muslim having dogs, they are excellent protectors. The problems arise when you bring them inside where you pray because they are not clean animals.

 

[The Sojourner]

Black dogs are frequently djinn. They are devils manifested. I actually started a thread on this. Maybe you should read it?

No thank you.

To ignore the hadith entirely is to ignore the prophet (saw) entirely.

With all due respect, that is a complete contradiction of what God has said in the Holy Quran.

Perhaps ask the Almighty to help you understand it? As your beliefs about dogs are incorrect.

Thank you. He has already shown me that those superstitious beliefs that came from the hadiths are incorrect and did not come from Him.

 

[Daze]

No thank you.


With all due respect, that is a complete contradiction of what God has said in the Holy Quran.


Thank you. He has already shown me that those superstitious beliefs that came from the hadiths are incorrect and did not come from Him.

Reminds me of Red and crew with the plugging of the ears.



It is as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.



If you think the prophet (saw), a man the Quran literally calls rahma alameen (mercy for the creation),
..said to kill every dog.. then there is nothing left to say. Is there?

 

[The Sojourner]

If you think the prophet (saw), a man the Quran literally calls rahma alameen (mercy for the creation),
..said to kill every dog.. then there is nothing left to say. Is there?

I didn't say that I think that though. It seems to me that we are not communicating, because what I said is that I don't believe in the hadiths.
To me, what the alleged hadiths have to say is irrelevant.

Quran
[45:6] These are GOD’s revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?

تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ

[7:185] Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things GOD has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which Hadith, beside this, do they believe in?

أَوَلَمْ يَنْظُرُوا فِي مَلَكُوتِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ مِنْ شَيْءٍ وَأَنْ عَسَىٰ أَنْ يَكُونَ قَدِ اقْتَرَبَ أَجَلُهُمْ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ

[77:50] Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold?

فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ


It doesn't say in the Bible or the Quran, that certain colours of dogs should be killed just because of how they look, be it spots, or no spots.

I also really don't wish to have any argument with you about it.

I have read of some people who believe that the hadiths were concocted by Persians, as an attack on Islam, because they were forced to convert, so they did it as revenge. I don't have any idea if that is true or not, but it it were true, then it might help explain some of the most ridiculous ones.

I will leave the hadiths alone.

 

[90sWereBetter]

5:29 Then Peter and the [other] Apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I knew it... you're one of these jahtruth people. no way am i taking this jahtruth thing seriously. nome of us would have even heard of jahtruth if wasn't for the aggressive jahtruth shilling operation on here