Some simple questions about the "trinity" that no "Christian" seems to be able to answer

A Freeman

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IMHO, when an individual experiences loss of loved ones, and unfortunately, I've experienced quite a number in the last few years, one starts to ask and really question what life is really about. So much of what divides people is superfluous and trivial, that you smirk and things that are constructed to divide us. All I know is my grief was real, but so was my love for them.

As you've said, satan is clever at his deception and even tempted Jesus for that matter, but clearly he knew what is here is temporal, as Jesus was here to spread the message you've indicated. It's what Jesus even said at the Mount, but there are some that simply don't get it. That's fine, and I'm making the broad assumption that their egos are frail and/or they're not willing to understand the message that Jesus was sent here to teach because it comes from within, a change of attitude/mindset. We're here to learn and understand what the Heavenly Father wants from us in order to spend an eternity with Him. Why is that so hard to comprehend? I don't know, but I'm grateful I have friends, family and coworkers who understand the message and do what we can to help people better their lives and themselves. I'll try to create a little heaven on earth while Jesus greets those who've actually entered it:

I posted this in another thread, but I'll post it here too as I find it relevant if you don't mind. It makes me know I WILL see my loved ones again:

Heaven - What Is it Like and Where Is it?
Thank-you. The information is relevant. And agreed about what Christ was sent here by Father to teach, which absolutely requires a complete change of attitude/mindset, so that we can be taught from within.

The most important words in all of Scripture are found in John 3:3-7, where we are told we MUST be born again from above as our true, spiritual selves to be able to see the Kingdom of Heaven. If we cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven, then there is no hope of entering it.

That passage also tells us plainly "that which is born of the flesh is flesh" (human) and "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (a spiritual-Being) and elsewhere that "flesh and blood (humans) CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of Heaven" (1 Cor. 15:50).

The reason for sharing this is because that complete change of attitude/mindset is the direct result of being truly born again from above. Part of that involves seeing, possibly for the first time, thoughts as they enter the mind, making it possible to discern what is human (of this world, to further the ego/"self") and what is spiritual (heavenly, eternal, self-less, and done to benefit others). Of course following through with the spiritual thoughts begins with the keeping of Father's Law, which is augmented more and more with actual guidance received in the moment as the discipline and obedience improves.

We've been receiving this guidance all along; unfortunately, most can't hear it, because they have become so utterly dependent upon human senses and man-made worldly doctrines, that they have rendered themselves spiritually deaf and blind.

With the overcoming of the ego/"self" comes the loss of the pain and anguish we feel, e.g. with the passing of loved ones. All pain is attached to the "self", so once it goes, so does the emotional pain. Please consider how different someone's passing would be viewed if it was understood that they were being gathered by Father (Who is The Best Planner and knows what is best for everyone). Father is gathering them because there's nothing further for them to learn in this lifetime. And being liberated from the human body of that past lifetime physically detaches them from the "self" so that they can feel Love and Light and Joy all around them.

The reason people are sad when others pass away is for selfish reasons, whether we realize it or not. That's part of Satan's deception, and it's based upon looking at their passing selfishly as our loss, rather than unselfishly as their gain.

This is being shared not to try to tell you how you should feel, but to illustrate how the glass half empty (human) or half full (spiritual) mindset can view the exact same event from two completely different perspectives; one filled with pain and loss, and the other filled with love and joy.

The joy that only Father can provide by drawing closer to Him; the joy that no man can take away from you.

Peace be upon you.
 

Maldarker

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Seems that maybe the same question should be asked as what JESUS asked people who do you think I am?
 

A Freeman

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Didn't Peter already answer that one (among the other 50 references to Christ being the Son of God), which Christ, through the mouth of Jesus, confirmed to be from Father (God)?

Matthew 16:16-17
16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the SON OF the Living God (the Rock; Truth or Corner Stone).
16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

You do realize that a Son is the OFFSPRING/CREATION of the Son's Father, don't you? And that the word "of" means "from", as in "of/from God"?

A Father ALWAYS comes BEFORE the Father's Son, just as a son ALWAYS is descended FROM the Son's Father. The Son is the OFFSPRING CREATED BY the Father, by definition.

God has MANY sons (also known here on Earth as angels), e.g. Michael (Christ, the Firstborn/First-Created Son of God) and Gabriel.

Job 38:7 When the morning star's inhabitants sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

See also: Genesis 6:2-7, Job 1:6, 2:1, Psalm 82:6, Hosea 1:10, John 1:12, Romans 8:14-19, Philippians 2:15, 1 John 3:1-2.

Do you not know that Christ is the LITERAL Son of God (1 John 2:22-23)?
 
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Didn't Peter already answer that one (among the other 50 references to Christ being the Son of God), which Christ, through the mouth of Jesus, confirmed to be from Father (God)?

Matthew 16:16-17
16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the SON OF the Living God (the Rock; Truth or Corner Stone).
16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

You do realize that a Son is the OFFSPRING/CREATION of the Son's Father, don't you? And that the word "of" means "from", as in "of/from God"?

A Father ALWAYS comes BEFORE the Father's Son, just as a son ALWAYS is descended FROM the Son's Father. The Son is the OFFSPRING CREATED BY the Father, by definition.

God has MANY sons (also known here on Earth as angels), e.g. Michael (Christ, the Firstborn/First-Created Son of God) and Gabriel.

Job 38:7 When the morning star's inhabitants sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

See also: Genesis 6:2-7, Job 1:6, 2:1, Psalm 82:6, Hosea 1:10, John 1:12, Romans 8:14-19, Philippians 2:15, 1 John 3:1-2.

Do you not know that Christ is the LITERAL Son of God (1 John 2:22-23)?
No matter what web you try to weave, you simply cannot get around these verses

1.In the beginning was the Word
2.And the word was with God
3. And the word was God
..
4. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.
5.He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, but the world knew him not
6. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us

You ignore these verses. Christ is not Michael. Christ is the Word of God, who was in the beginning with God, and was God. If you cannot confess this like it says in the Bible, you are spreading a false and contrary doctrine.
 

A Freeman

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No matter what web you try to weave, you simply cannot get around these verses

1.In the beginning was the Word
2.And the word was with God
3. And the word was God
..
Why do you feel the need to lie so often? Or is it something you're so accustomed to doing that you don't even realize you're lying anymore?

John 1:1 most certainly has NOT been ignored; it has been personally addressed in detail within this thread, more than once. You, on the other hand, and the rest of those who espouse the pagan trinity, have completely ignored the questions in the OP, which prove NONE of you actually follow Christ's Example or obey Him.

But again, just to show you how completely ridiculous and illogical you're being, IF Jesus was/is God (even though John 1:1 never says that), then the verse would be read as follows, substituting your pagan trinity into John 1:1::

John 1:1 In [the] beginning was the Son Jesus, and the Son Jesus was with The Father, Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and the Son Jesus was the Father, Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Even by substituting "God" for "The Word" in John 1:1, it still renders it senseless:

John 1:1 In [the] beginning was God, and God was with God, and God was God.

Further, do you really not know that God (the "I AM" -- the Self-Existing ONE) exists BEFORE there was time? So God is BEFORE the beginning, because the beginning marks the beginning of time, NOT the beginning of God, Who is ETERNAL.

For Father's Sake THINK about what you are reading and doing instead of reading something into the verses that simply isn't there.

4. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.
Yes, Father made everything THROUGH Christ after Father created Christ (which is when God became Father). Again, this does NOT say that Christ is or was God.

Hebrews 1:1-4
1:1 God, Who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the Prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [His] Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of [His] glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by The Word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of His Majesty on high;
1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5.He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, but the world knew him not
Just as He (Christ) is in the world NOW and the world STILL doesn't know Him. Humans see only other humans, because they have no facility to see anything spiritual.

https://hannahmichaels.wordpress.com/2016/07/15/the-scriptural-marks-of-christ/

6. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us
And when Christ, God's Eldest/Firstborn Son INCARNATED Jesus, the human son of Mary, They became Jesus+Christ, THE flesh-and-blood Example that we are supposed to be following.

So why would anyone pray to a "trinity" when Christ prayed to Father?
Why would anyone call the trinity "God" when Christ called Father His God?

Clearly anyone who does these things is NOT following Christ's Example nor are they following the very first COMMANDMENT.

Mark 12:29-31
12:29 And Jesus answered him, The First of all the Commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord*:
12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength and serve Him ONLY: this [is] the first COMMANDment.
12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other COMMANDment greater than these.

*ONE means ONE; it doesn't mean two, or three or one-in-three or three-in-one, or anything other than ONE.

You ignore these verses.
That's very obviously not true.

Christ is not Michael.
According to God and His Word Prince Michael is Christ. Do you know better than God or His Christ? Or are you calling God and Christ liars too?

Christ is the Word of God, who was in the beginning with God,
Of course Christ was with God in the beginning, right after God created Christ.

and was God.
How could God, or any part of God, be anything other than eternal? The verb "was" is PAST TENSE.

If you cannot confess this like it says in the Bible, you are spreading a false and contrary doctrine.
Another lie. NOWHERE in the Bible does it tell anyone to confess the pagan "trinity" doctrine; in fact, anyone who does so is committing IDOLATRY, breaking the First and Most Important COMMANDMENT, and refusing to follow Christ's Example.

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (i.e. they are insane).
 
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Why do you feel the need to lie so often? Or is it something you're so accustomed to doing that you don't even realize you're lying anymore?

John 1:1 most certainly has NOT been ignored; it has been personally addressed in detail within this thread, more than once. You, on the other hand, and the rest of those who espouse the pagan trinity, have completely ignored the questions in the OP, which prove NONE of you actually follow Christ's Example or obey Him.

But again, just to show you how completely ridiculous and illogical you're being, IF Jesus was/is God (even though John 1:1 never says that), then the verse would be read as follows, substituting your pagan trinity into John 1:1::

John 1:1 In [the] beginning was the Son Jesus, and the Son Jesus was with The Father, Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and the Son Jesus was the Father, Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Even by substituting "God" for "The Word" in John 1:1, it still renders it senseless:

John 1:1 In [the] beginning was God, and God was with God, and God was God.

Further, do you really not know that God (the "I AM" -- the Self-Existing ONE) exists BEFORE there was time? So God is BEFORE the beginning, because the beginning marks the beginning of time, NOT the beginning of God, Who is ETERNAL.

For Father's Sake THINK about what you are reading and doing instead of reading something into the verses that simply isn't there.


Yes, Father made everything THROUGH Christ after Father created Christ (which is when God became Father). Again, this does NOT say that Christ is or was God.

Hebrews 1:1-4
1:1 God, Who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the Prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [His] Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of [His] glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by The Word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of His Majesty on high;
1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


Just as He (Christ) is in the world NOW and the world STILL doesn't know Him. Humans see only other humans, because they have no facility to see anything spiritual.

https://hannahmichaels.wordpress.com/2016/07/15/the-scriptural-marks-of-christ/


And when Christ, God's Eldest/Firstborn Son INCARNATED Jesus, the human son of Mary, They became Jesus+Christ, THE flesh-and-blood Example that we are supposed to be following.

So why would anyone pray to a "trinity" when Christ prayed to Father?
Why would anyone call the trinity "God" when Christ called Father His God?

Clearly anyone who does these things is NOT following Christ's Example nor are they following the very first COMMANDMENT.

Mark 12:29-31
12:29 And Jesus answered him, The First of all the Commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord*:
12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength and serve Him ONLY: this [is] the first COMMANDment.
12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other COMMANDment greater than these.

*ONE means ONE; it doesn't mean two, or three or one-in-three or three-in-one, or anything other than ONE.


That's very obviously not true.


According to God and His Word Prince Michael is Christ. Do you know better than God or His Christ? Or are you calling God and Christ liars too?


Of course Christ was with God in the beginning, right after God created Christ.


How could God, or any part of God, be anything other than eternal? The verb "was" is PAST TENSE.


Another lie. NOWHERE in the Bible does it tell anyone to confess the pagan "trinity" doctrine; in fact, anyone who does so is committing IDOLATRY, breaking the First and Most Important COMMANDMENT, and refusing to follow Christ's Example.

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (i.e. they are insane).
All I did was quote scripture. If that is a lie to you, that’s not my problem. and to ask if you could confess it, meaning, say the same words and affirm their meaning. If that upsets you, don’t get mad at me, get mad at scripture.

In the beginning was the Word
And the Word was with God
And the Word was God.
The Word became flesh (in Jesus Christ).

thats my only statement. The fact that you cannot agree with this is not my problem, it’s not scriptures problem, it’s your problem.
You are the one making a hodge podge to dance around these simple words. I’m not putting any artifice on them or making different concocted meanings out of them, because they speak for themselves. You are the one trying to make it fit into your logical box that you prefer, to cram The Infinite into your human logic on the Procrustean bed. I don’t need to, because all I did is quote the words as they are. If you are saying that’s a lie, you are saying you think the scriptures are a lie. It has nothing to do with me.
 
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Further, do you really not know that God (the "I AM" -- the Self-Existing ONE) exists BEFORE there was time? So God is BEFORE the beginning, because the beginning marks the beginning of time, NOT the beginning of God, Who is ETERNAL.
“Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”
So before creation, Christ existed with God. These are Jesus words. Can you accept them at face value.or do you need to squeeze them into the Procrustean bed of your personal logic that is more comfortable for you?
Because these verses are in perfect harmony with John 1
The Word was with God
And the Word was God.

These are the verses of scripture. Do they mean what they say, or do they not appeal to your human mind and need to be changed into something more suitable to you personally?
How could God, or any part of God, be anything other than eternal? The verb "was" is PAST TENSE
such as here where you need to imply that the words are saying the Word was God and then ceased to be that. Except they say
The word was with God and the Word was God.

theyre very simple. It only seems complex to you because you are trying to change their meaning.
Again. Don’t like it? Stick to Islam. Don’t say the scriptures don’t say what they clearly do.
 

A Freeman

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All I did was quote scripture. If that is a lie to you, that’s not my problem. and to ask if you could confess it, meaning, say the same words and affirm their meaning. If that upsets you, don’t get mad at me, get mad at scripture.

In the beginning was the Word
And the Word was with God
And the Word was God.
The Word became flesh (in Jesus Christ).

thats my only statement. The fact that you cannot agree with this is not my problem, it’s not scriptures problem, it’s your problem.
You are the one making a hodge podge to dance around these simple words. I’m not putting any artifice on them or making different concocted meanings out of them, because they speak for themselves. You are the one trying to make it fit into your logical box that you prefer, to cram The Infinite into your human logic on the Procrustean bed. I don’t need to, because all I did is quote the words as they are. If you are saying that’s a lie, you are saying you think the scriptures are a lie. It has nothing to do with me.
Perhaps you would be so kind as to show everyone where it says the following in Scripture?
You ignore these verses. Christ is not Michael. Christ is the Word of God, who was in the beginning with God, and was God. If you cannot confess this like it says in the Bible, you are spreading a false and contrary doctrine.
If nothing was actually ignored, and Christ is Prince Michael (as it says in Scripture) and it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that anyone must confess the man-made trinity doctrine (quite the opposite in fact/truth), then those would be lies, would they not?

And claiming "All I did was quote scripture". when everyone can see you obviously did more than just quote Scripture, is only compounding the original lies with another lie, which isn't helping you or anyone else.

“And the Word was God”
It literally does
Do you not understand what the word LITERAL means?

This is where it LITERALLY (word for word, i.e. verbatim) says that Christ is the SON OF God:

References to Christ as the Son OF God (50)

Matthew (9):
4:3, 4:6, 8:29, 14:33, 16:16, 26:63, 27:40, 27:43, 27:54

Mark (5): 1:1, 3:11, 5:7, 14:61, 15:39

Luke (7): 1:32, 1:35, 4:3, 4:9, 4:41, 8:28, 22:70

John (11): 1:34, 1:49, 3:18, 5:25, 6:69, 9:35, 10:36, 11:4, 11:27, 19:7, 20:30

Acts (2): 8:37, 9:20

Books with single references (5): Galatians 2:20, 2 Corinthians 1:19, Romans 1:4, Ephesians 4:13, Revelation 2:18

Hebrews (4): 4:14, 6:6, 7:3, 10:29

1 John (7): 3:8, 4:15, 5:5, 5:10, 5:12, 5:13, 5:20

Also, three of the references to Christ being the literal Son of God refer to Him as the Son of THE Most High or THE Highest. Further, there are at least three more references made by Father to His Anointed (His Christ) as His Son.

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son OF the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son OF the Highest: and THE LORD God his Father shall give unto him the Throne of David:

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

And in Psalms, where Father (God, the Most High) refers His Anointed (His Christ) as His Son: Psalm 2:7, 2:12, Dan. 3:25.

Also of interest is the designation of the other angels, both in heaven and here on earth, as “the sons of God”, “children of the Most High” or “sons of the Living God”, etc., including:

Genesis 6:2-7, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7, Psalm 82:6, Hosea 1:10, John 1:12, Romans 8:14-19, Philippians 2:15, 1 John 3:1-2.

This of course is in perfect agreement with the references to Christ as “the firstborn among many brethren” in Romans 8:29, “the firstborn of every creature” in Colossians 1:15, and “the beginning of the creation of God” in Rev. 3:14. There simply is no other way for Christ to be the literal Son of God (as well as the literal firstborn).

REFERENCES IN SCRIPTURE TO CHRIST AS “GOD THE SON”: ZERO (0)

REFERENCES IN SCRIPTURE TO “THE DEITY OF CHRIST”:
ZERO (0)

The word “of”, by definition, indicates the origin or derivation of something, e.g. a Son OF God.

Common-sense: A Father ALWAYS comes BEFORE the Father's Son, just as a son ALWAYS is descended FROM the Son's Father. The Son is the OFFSPRING CREATED BY the Father, by definition.
 
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Do you not understand what the word LITERAL means?

This is where it LITERALLY (word for word, i.e. verbatim) says that Christ is the SON OF God:

References to Christ as the Son OF God (50)

Matthew (9):
4:3, 4:6, 8:29, 14:33, 16:16, 26:63, 27:40, 27:43, 27:54

Mark (5): 1:1, 3:11, 5:7, 14:61, 15:39

Luke (7): 1:32, 1:35, 4:3, 4:9, 4:41, 8:28, 22:70

John (11): 1:34, 1:49, 3:18, 5:25, 6:69, 9:35, 10:36, 11:4, 11:27, 19:7, 20:30

Acts (2): 8:37, 9:20

Books with single references (5): Galatians 2:20, 2 Corinthians 1:19, Romans 1:4, Ephesians 4:13, Revelation 2:18

Hebrews (4): 4:14, 6:6, 7:3, 10:29

1 John (7): 3:8, 4:15, 5:5, 5:10, 5:12, 5:13, 5:20

Also, three of the references to Christ being the literal Son of God refer to Him as the Son of THE Most High or THE Highest. Further, there are at least three more references made by Father to His Anointed (His Christ) as His Son.

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son OF the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son OF the Highest: and THE LORD God his Father shall give unto him the Throne of David:

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

And in Psalms, where Father (God, the Most High) refers His Anointed (His Christ) as His Son: Psalm 2:7, 2:12, Dan. 3:25.

Also of interest is the designation of the other angels, both in heaven and here on earth, as “the sons of God”, “children of the Most High” or “sons of the Living God”, etc., including:

Genesis 6:2-7, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7, Psalm 82:6, Hosea 1:10, John 1:12, Romans 8:14-19, Philippians 2:15, 1 John 3:1-2.

This of course is in perfect agreement with the references to Christ as “the firstborn among many brethren” in Romans 8:29, “the firstborn of every creature” in Colossians 1:15, and “the beginning of the creation of God” in Rev. 3:14. There simply is no other way for Christ to be the literal Son of God (as well as the literal firstborn).

REFERENCES IN SCRIPTURE TO CHRIST AS “GOD THE SON”: ZERO (0)

REFERENCES IN SCRIPTURE TO “THE DEITY OF CHRIST”:
ZERO (0)

The word “of”, by definition, indicates the origin or derivation of something, e.g. a Son OF God.

Common-sense: A Father ALWAYS comes BEFORE the Father's Son, just as a son ALWAYS is descended FROM the Son's Father. The Son is the OFFSPRING CREATED BY the Father, by definition.
Wow all of that for one line from the bible I quoted you. that really struck a nerve.
Here it is again

And the Word was God

You simply CANNOT accept these simple words. Just give it a rest. You are in contradiction to scripture.
Also of interest is the designation of the other angels, both in heaven and here on earth, as “the sons of God”, “children of the Most High” or “sons of the Living God”, etc., including:
But none of them are called the Word of God, who was with God in the beginning, and was God.
If nothing was actually ignored, and Christ is Prince Michael (as it says in Scripture) and it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that anyone must confess the man-made trinity doctrine (quite the opposite in fact/truth), then those would be lies, would they not?
The bible never says Michael is Jesus Christ. It says Michael fought against the dragon in revelation. Jesus also tells you who he is in revelation
I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
He didn’t say I am Michael.
let’s look at who Jesus is again, because this seems to be the point that you just can’t accept.

In the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ)
And the Word was with God
And the Word was God
And the Word became flesh (in Jesus Christ)
REFERENCES IN SCRIPTURE TO “THE DEITY OF CHRIST”: ZERO (0)
Completely wrong. Scripture says the Word was God.

You need to stop lying to yourself friend. It’s not me telling lies by telling you what’s written in scripturel so stop the ridiculous accusations.
 

A Freeman

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What needs to be made clear is that Father (God, Whose Name in Hebrew is YHWH or, in English, the “I AM”), speaks, works and saves THROUGH His Angel/Word/Redeemer/Holy Spirit, Whom God Himself does refer to as a “Saviour”:

Isaiah 63:7-11
63:7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the "I AM", [and] the praises of the "I AM", according to all that the "I AM" hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the House of Israel, which He hath bestowed on them according to His mercies, and according to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses.
63:8 For He said, Surely they [are] My people, children [that] will not lie: so He was their Saviour.
63:9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, AND THE ANGEL OF HIS PRESENCE SAVED THEM: in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit: therefore He was turned to be their enemy, [and] He fought against them.

Exodus 23:20-23
23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in The Way (John 14:6), and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
23:21 Beware of him, and OBEY HIS VOICE (Rev. 19:6), provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name [is] in him.
23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak (THROUGH him); then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23:23 For Mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.


Moses and the Exodus from slavery in Egypt to freedom under The Law foreshadowed both the First and Second Coming of The Messiah/Angel/Word/Messenger of God, sent to teach and keep us in The Way, and to bring us home, to the Promised Land.

Isaiah 19:20-21
19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the "I AM" Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the "I AM" because of the oppressors, and He SHALL send them a Saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
19:21 And the "I AM" shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the "I AM" in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the "I AM", and perform [it].

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References to The Angel of the “I AM” (YHWH in Hebrew) in the Books of Moses:

Genesis 16:7-12, 21:17, 22:11-12, 22:15-18, 24:7, 24:40, 31:11-12, 48:16

Exodus 3:2, 14:19, 23:20-23, 32:34, 33:2

Numbers 22:22-27, 22:31-35


References to The Word of the “I AM” (YHWH in Hebrew) in the Books of Moses:

Genesis 15:1-5

Exodus 9:20-21


Numbers 3:16, 3:51, 4:45, 15:31, 22:18, 36:5

Deuteronomy 5:5


Exodus 9:20-21 (compare with Exodus 23:20-23 above)
9:20 He that feared the Word of the "I AM" among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses:
9:21 And he that respected not the Word of the "I AM" left his servants and his cattle in the field.

There are, of course, scores of other references throughout the rest of the Old Covenant where God speaks THROUGH The Word/Angel of the “I AM” to all of the Prophets.
 

A Freeman

Superstar
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
6,725
The man-made "trinity" doctrine was invented by the Roman Catholic church (RCC).

“Our opponents sometimes claim that no belief should be held dogmatically which
is not explicitly stated in scripture ... But the Protestant Churches have
themselves accepted such dogmas, AS THE TRINITY, for which there is no such
precise authority in the Gospels
,” — (Assumption of Mary, Life magazine, Oct 30,
1950, p. 51)

Source: http://www.trinitytruth.org/the-trinity-doctrine-exposed.html#Part15

From the Athanasian Creed: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is
necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep
whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the
catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity...

...This is the catholic faith
; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he
cannot be saved."

"The doctrine of the Trinity is the central Catholic Dogma, that Catholics are
obliged to believe.

“He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.”
-the Athanasian Creed"

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed
 

A Freeman

Superstar
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
6,725
Excerpt below from: https://www.trinityexamined.com/why-no-longer-trinitarian/ -


Dear believer, if you are a Trinitarian and read this writing and don’t wrestle with the staggering evidence that Jesus is subordinate and unequal to the Father, then you may want to seriously question if the Bible is your final standard for faith and practice.

Don’t run from the evidence. How important is the truth to you? Do you allow the Bible to be “sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12)?


Part I


WHAT IS THE TRINITY


Most Christians believe that the Trinity means belief in the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. While Trinitarians believe in these three, this definition is not correct. Based on this definition, I’m still a Trinitarian.

Because the doctrine of the Trinity is not in the Bible, there exists some ambiguity within the true definition. Although the most common definition is something like this:

There is one God who is Triune. He eternally exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each member is a person who is fully God in the absolute sense, equal in essence —yet there is only one God.

Don’t try to intellectually harmonize this doctrine. It’s not possible using God given, self-evident, established rules of logic.


HOW TO KNOW IF TRINITY IS TRUE

Most Christians just assume the Trinity is true because it’s widely believed. They even think it’s found in the Bible. They are ignorant of early church history (as I was) and assume it can be traced all the way to the early church.

Most Christians don’t objectively examine this doctrine in neutral to determine it’s truthfulness. Just because something is perceived as truthful, popular, and appears to be encased in concrete, doesn’t guarantee it is. Human sincerity is not inerrant.

What criteria should wise Christians use to determine if the Trinity is true? The Bible says, “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” 2 Timothy 3:16, ESV. Therefore, the Bible, when interpreted correctly, —that is, while adhering to good principles of interpretation, decides if the Trinity is true or false.

When the Bible is interpreted through deep ceded Trinitarian presuppositions, the outcome with match the disposition. Stated differently, —when the Bible is interpreted under an overlay of held theology, the final result will match the overlay applied. This is why it’s important what method of interpretation one uses to determine a doctrine’s truthfulness.

There are two primary manners of biblical interpretation. One is called eisegesis. The Pocket Dictionary of Biblical Studies defines it, “Reading meaning into a text rather than reading a meaning from a text” (Patzia & Petrotta 40, 2002). Outside of a dictionary, it describes a manner of interpretation that is influenced by one’s beliefs. It involves reading held theology into the text. This method is subjective and doesn’t inform us if the Trinity is true.

The second method is called exegesis. This describes a manner of biblical interpretation that is performed objectively and in neutral. It doesn’t involve reading held theology into the text, but consists of drawing truth out, and is after the intended meaning of the author, as understood by the original audience. This method considers the historical context when written, it analyzes grammar when necessary and allows the Bible and the Holy Spirit of God to have free reign in the interpretation process.


STARTLING ADMISSIONS

Some honest theologians admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is not in the Bible
. The New Bible Dictionary (third edition) defines the Trinity, “1. There is but one God; 2. the Father, the Son and the Spirit is each fully and eternally God; 3. the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is each a distinct person.” Strikingly, it goes on to admit, “Nowhere does the Bible explicitly teach this combination of assertions” (1982, 1209).

Some other Bible dictionaries admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found. The Harper’s Bible Dictionary states, “The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament” (1985, 1099).

This dictionary admits that the New Testament (NT) doesn’t teach this doctrine. Strikingly, it mentions the origination of this doctrine when it says, “[as] defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries.” Without stating it explicitly, the great church councils referenced are a friendlier title for the Roman Catholic Church. They are the architect of this doctrine, as we will see.

A late theologian, named Dr. Charles Ryrie, wrote in his acclaimed book, Basic Theology, “Many doctrines are accepted by evangelicals as being clearly taught in the Scriptures for which there are no proof texts. The doctrine of the Trinity furnishes the best example of this” (1999, 89)

Charles Ryrie (who I suspect and hope was a Christian who loved God) was wrong on some things, including that “many doctrines are accepted by evangelicals … for which there are no proof texts.” Dr. Ryrie stands corrected. Most doctrines held by Evangelical, Biblical Christians contain many proof texts. Given that the doctrine of Trinity is a “core doctrine of the faith,” if you are a Trinitarian, his admission should shake your Trinitarian foundation its very core, because its not anchored in the Bible.

The Oxford Companion to the Bible writes, “Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the terms does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later credal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon” (Bruce Metzger and Michael Coogan, 1993, 782).

This Trinitarian book makes some compelling admissions. The canon (which is the Bible) does not contain the doctrine of the Trinity and this doctrine is a product of “later credal formulations.” This is another friendly label for the Roman Catholic Church.

You must already know, that the quotes just provided doesn’t represent every Trinitarian scholar. Sadly, many still don’t admit that the Trinity is not found in the Bible, or that in its infancy it was produced by the Roman Catholic Church.

As these dictionaries implicitly communicate, no one today became a Trinitarian from reading the Bible alone. The doctrine of the Trinity is “learned theology.” So if you are a Trinitarian, just like myself, you didn’t learn this doctrine from the Bible.

-------


Matthew 15:7-9
15:7 [Ye] hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is FAR from me.
15:9 But in vain they do worship Me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
 

Axl888

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Jul 29, 2019
Messages
413
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.

"Greater than" can NEVER mean "co-equal to". Period.
I agree that the Father is greater than the Son, that they are not co-equal. But dont you know that unequal portions could still be equated to 1?
 

Maldarker

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Mar 23, 2021
Messages
2,064
I agree that the Father is greater than the Son, that they are not co-equal. But dont you know that unequal portions could still be equated to 1?
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.

Shows a humble not prideful being.
 
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