Some simple questions about the "trinity" that no "Christian" seems to be able to answer

Red Sky at Morning

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That explanation has already been provided in painstaking detail in this thread.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/some-simple-questions-about-the-trinity-that-no-christian-seems-to-be-able-to-answer.10409/post-523459

In a nutshell, The Word OF God, whether that word be delivered by thought/vision, verbally, in writing, or in the flesh-and-blood example of Jesus+Christ, The Word of God is the TRUTH.

When Israel and the rest of mankind stopped listening to Father, He sent His Prophets to verbally warn them. When we stopped listening to the Prophets, He had them record His Truth in writing, so those with a genuine interest in the Truth could read it. And when people still paid no attention to any of His Prophets (other than to curse, beat and stone them), God sent His Firstborn Son (Christ) to be THE flesh-and-blood Example of how each of us need to be.

Yes, we need to follow Christ's Example and BE disciplined and obedient to God, like Christ is, at all times. THAT is the core teaching of Christ, found throughout the Gospel accounts.

Unfortunately, that is NOT what "Christianity" teaches; the organized religion that calls itself "Christianity" (all denominations) instead teaches people not to believe or obey Christ nor Christ's God. This thread is proof of that fact, because not one single so-called Christian has even taken the time to reflect on the 4 questions in the OP, which should immediately tell them they aren't following Christ's Example.

The mental gymnastics required for someone to believe that 3=1 and 1=3 and that a father is co-equal with his own son is without description it's so irrational.

God has given us human families, with human dads and human sons, so that we can understand the basic concept of family, but somehow people believe God divided Himself into 3 parts that aren't really three parts, but are three parts, but are also one part, but not just one part?

Do you really not understand how silly that sounds (and how silly it is)?

The Word of God (Truth) has always been with God (NOT Lucifer/Satan), and always will be with God. God doesn't need to be multiple individuals, or multiple personalities that talk to themselves, or a "trinity" or anything other than THE ONE TRUE GOD for the Truth to be with Him; it's been with Him since the beginning, even before God created Christ.

And no one, including me, has said that "Christianity" doesn't teach the "trinity"; it obviously does. Christ on the other hand, NEVER taught the "trinity", nor did any of the Prophets before Christ came in the body/flesh of Jesus, nor did any of the disciples afterward.
I genuinely felt sorry for you reading this. You talk of the TRUTH yet promote a false gospel. You have so many posts of this sort and it must take up much oyour time.

For what?

You talk of the fire, but works done in the flesh will be burned up. Worse, If you are not truly born again, what a waste and a tragedy to look back on a life promoting deception and twisting the truths of the Bible. All for nothing but regret.

There is still time to repent I.e. change your mind about Jesus and defy the odds. Pride will scream “no!!!” but I pray the Lord gives you no rest or peace till you stop kicking against the pricks, stop and listen.
 
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That explanation has already been provided in painstaking detail in this thread.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/some-simple-questions-about-the-trinity-that-no-christian-seems-to-be-able-to-answer.10409/post-523459

In a nutshell, The Word OF God, whether that word be delivered by thought/vision, verbally, in writing, or in the flesh-and-blood example of Jesus+Christ, The Word of God is the TRUTH.

When Israel and the rest of mankind stopped listening to Father, He sent His Prophets to verbally warn them. When we stopped listening to the Prophets, He had them record His Truth in writing, so those with a genuine interest in the Truth could read it. And when people still paid no attention to any of His Prophets (other than to curse, beat and stone them), God sent His Firstborn Son (Christ) to be THE flesh-and-blood Example of how each of us need to be.

Yes, we need to follow Christ's Example and BE disciplined and obedient to God, like Christ is, at all times. THAT is the core teaching of Christ, found throughout the Gospel accounts.

Unfortunately, that is NOT what "Christianity" teaches; the organized religion that calls itself "Christianity" (all denominations) instead teaches people not to believe or obey Christ nor Christ's God. This thread is proof of that fact, because not one single so-called Christian has even taken the time to reflect on the 4 questions in the OP, which should immediately tell them they aren't following Christ's Example.

The mental gymnastics required for someone to believe that 3=1 and 1=3 and that a father is co-equal with his own son is without description it's so irrational.

God has given us human families, with human dads and human sons, so that we can understand the basic concept of family, but somehow people believe God divided Himself into 3 parts that aren't really three parts, but are three parts, but are also one part, but not just one part?

Do you really not understand how silly that sounds (and how silly it is)?

The Word of God (Truth) has always been with God (NOT Lucifer/Satan), and always will be with God. God doesn't need to be multiple individuals, or multiple personalities that talk to themselves, or a "trinity" or anything other than THE ONE TRUE GOD for the Truth to be with Him; it's been with Him since the beginning, even before God created Christ.

And no one, including me, has said that "Christianity" doesn't teach the "trinity"; it obviously does. Christ on the other hand, NEVER taught the "trinity", nor did any of the Prophets before Christ came in the body/flesh of Jesus, nor did any of the disciples afterward.
There's no mental gymnastics. All unities are composed of parts. The human being has mind, emotion, and instinct, is it mental gymnastics to understand him as a unified being?

"I and the Father are one" Jesus. Contrast this to your statement that "a father is co-equal with his own son is without description it's so irrational.". You are in direct contradiction to Jesus' words.

"Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
The Word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus, the word which became flesh, was with God and was God before the world began. It's written right there in clear words. Reject them, but its silly to pretend they're not there.
 

A Freeman

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There's no mental gymnastics. All unities are composed of parts. The human being has mind, emotion, and instinct, is it mental gymnastics to understand him as a unified being?

"I and the Father are one" Jesus. Contrast this to your statement that "a father is co-equal with his own son is without description it's so irrational.". You are in direct contradiction to Jesus' words.

"Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
The Word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus, the word which became flesh, was with God and was God before the world began. It's written right there in clear words. Reject them, but its silly to pretend they're not there.
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.

"Greater than" can NEVER mean "co-equal to". Period.
 
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John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.

"Greater than" can NEVER mean "co-equal to". Period.
"I and the Father are one" John 10
He couldn't have said it any clearer
 
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Ok, i haven't seen this mentioned.

Luke 8:39

38Now the man out of whom the devils were departed besought him that he might be with him: but Jesus sent him away, saying, 39Return to thine own house, and shew how great things God hath done unto thee. And he went his way, and published throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done unto him.
So either God=Jesus, or the man gave the credit wrongly to Jesus instead of God. And Luke didn't think to make a note of it or correct it while telling the story. Seems unlikely.

The matching passage in Mark 5 says "Lord". So Jesus=Lord and God=Lord. What conclusion follows?
19Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee. 20And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.
 

free2018

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If you have ever experienced the risen Jesus in your life then you will know exactly who he is.
Sure.
He is Abbas son— no more, no less.
This heresy that Yeshua is the Creator is not what the scriptures say.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.”
I like this one from the OT…

Micah 5:2 - King James Version
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Just one word, but it shatters Adoptionism and shows that Jesus shares God’s eternality.

p.s. For @A Freeman

I found the same verse in the version you like!

5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.

 
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Red Sky at Morning

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John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.

"Greater than" can NEVER mean "co-equal to". Period.
When sharing the gospel with Muslims, it is not uncommon to hear the objection: “Where did Jesus say, ‘I am God; worship me’?”

I believe your critique of the Trinity follows the same lines, but the question itself misses the very heart of who Jesus is, as I believe this passage illustrates:-

Philippians 2:5-8 - King James Version

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 
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A Freeman

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"I and the Father are one" John 10
He couldn't have said it any clearer
They are at one with each other. Two individuals (Father and Son) of ONE MIND (like-minded). It obviously doesn't mean they are the same individual, because Father couldn't be greater than all others if they were one individual, could He?

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in YOU.

When Father's Will is being done Father and Christ and all the rest of the angels of heaven (other sons of God) are in you and with you and we are AT ONE.

If you need further proof that you are misunderstanding John 10:30, then please consider the following verses, all from the same Gospel account:

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that Himself doeth: and He will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Why would Father need to show Christ anything if Christ is allegedly the third part of The All-Knowing (Omniscient) God?


John 5:26 For as the Father hath Life in Himself; so hath He GIVEN to the Son to have Life in himself;

Why would Christ need Father to GIVE Christ Life (i.e. create Christ), if Christ is allegedly a third part of The Uncreated God?


John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the Will of the Father which hath sent me.

How could Christ allegedly be the third part of The All-Powerful (Omnipotent) God and yet not able to do anything on his own?

John 5:37 And the Father Himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.

If Father and Christ are allegedly one individual, how could Christ utter these words in the presence of people who were looking directly at Christ-Jesus as Christ spoke these words through the mouth of Jesus?

Anyone who ignores and refuses to believe Christ's own words, ALL of them -- NONE of which contradict themselves -- cannot possibly belong to Christ.

John 5:42-47
5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?
5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
 

A Freeman

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When sharing the gospel with Muslims, it is not uncommon to hear the objection: “Where did Jesus say, ‘I am God; worship me’?”

I believe your critique of the Trinity follows the same lines, but the question itself misses the very heart of who Jesus is, as I believe this passage illustrates:-

Philippians 2:5-8 - King James Version

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Every trinitarian-duped "Christian" turns to this passage from Paul's letter to the Philippians, in the hope of contradicting Christ's own words with its very obvious MISTRANSLATION, just as you have done. Shame on you for calling Christ a liar.

When did Christ ever claim to be equal with God? Christ repeatedly and consistently proclaimed to the world THE TRUTH that Christ's Father and God is GREATER THAN he (Christ) is.

The Greek word ἁρπαγμὸν (harpagmon) is only found once in the Bible. It has been obviously mistranslated because it not only doesn't make sense in context, but it contradicts the words directly from the mouth of Jesus and from Paul, in Paul's other letters.

Here is what Christ actually said through the mouth of Jesus:

John 10:29 MY FATHER, which gave [them] me, IS GREATER THAN ALL; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; NEITHER HE THAT IS SENT GREATER THAN HE THAT SENT HIM.

Note: There are at least 52 references in the Gospel accounts to Christ being sent by God, including:-

Matthew (3): 10:40, 15:24, 21:37
Mark (2): 9:37, 12:6
Luke (6): 4:18, 4:26, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16, 20:13
John (41): 3:17, 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5:38, 6:29, 6:38, 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16, 7:28, 7:29, 7:33, 8:7, 8:9, 8:17, 8:20, 8:33, 9:4, 10:36, 11:42, 12:44, 12:45, 12:49, 13:16, 13:20, 14:24, 15:21, 16:5, 17:3, 17:18, 17:21, 17:23, 17:25, 20:21

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.

And here is what Paul said in his first letter to the Corinthians, Ephesians and Colossians (to keep it brief), :

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST [IS] GOD.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Christ), then shall the Son (Christ) also himself be subject unto Him (Father) that put all things under him (Christ), THAT GOD (Father) MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

Ephesians 1:17 THAT THE GOD OF OUR LORD CHRIST JESUS, THE FATHER OF GLORY, may give unto you the spirit of Wisdom and revelation in the Knowledge of Him:

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Christ the Saviour, praying always for you,


Returning back to the passage at hand (Philippians 2:5-11), and looking at it in context, it should be self-evident that God has the HIGHEST reputation there is, as He is the ONLY One Who is Perfect and Good. Again, turning to the words of Christ:-

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou ME good? [there is] none good but One, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into Life, keep the Commandments.

So if Christ made himself of no reputation (subjected Himself to human limitations), then Christ could not possibly have been claiming to be equal with God. And given ALL of Christ's own words on the subject, e.g. "MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I", Christ would have considered it robbery (a lie) to claim to be equal with God, which is why Christ NEVER said that.

Here is the correctly translated passage from Philippians 2:5-11, from the King of kings' Bible:-

Philippians 2:5-11
2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
2:6 Who, being in the likeness of God, thought it not correct to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made into the likeness of men:
2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
2:10 That at the name of the Saviour every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in Earth, and [things] under the earth;
2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Christ Jesus [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Please stop contradicting Christ, which is calling Christ a liar. If you truly believe that Christ is The Truth, then His Words MUST be believed and followed.

ALL of Christ's Teachings are about keeping Father's Law. ALL of them. Choose life and good (obedience to Father and His Law) over death and evil (slavery to sin).
 
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They are at one with each other. Two individuals (Father and Son) of ONE MIND (like-minded). It obviously doesn't mean they are the same individual, because Father couldn't be greater than all others if they were one individual, could He?

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in YOU.

When Father's Will is being done Father and Christ and all the rest of the angels of heaven (other sons of God) are in you and with you and we are AT ONE.

If you need further proof that you are misunderstanding John 10:30, then please consider the following verses, all from the same Gospel account:

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that Himself doeth: and He will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Why would Father need to show Christ anything if Christ is allegedly the third part of The All-Knowing (Omniscient) God?


John 5:26 For as the Father hath Life in Himself; so hath He GIVEN to the Son to have Life in himself;

Why would Christ need Father to GIVE Christ Life (i.e. create Christ), if Christ is allegedly a third part of The Uncreated God?


John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the Will of the Father which hath sent me.

How could Christ allegedly be the third part of The All-Powerful (Omnipotent) God and yet not able to do anything on his own?

John 5:37 And the Father Himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.

If Father and Christ are allegedly one individual, how could Christ utter these words in the presence of people who were looking directly at Christ-Jesus as Christ spoke these words through the mouth of Jesus?

Anyone who ignores and refuses to believe Christ's own words, ALL of them -- NONE of which contradict themselves -- cannot possibly belong to Christ.

John 5:42-47
5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?
5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
I find it mildly amusing you have to explain this because I was talking to one of my friends the other weekend about an event in my life, and I mentioned to her my dad said he wishes my mum was here to see it. My friend, who also had her mum pass away a couple of years ago, replied, "I'm sure she knows. My mum is always with me". I had my friend clarify because I wanted to know if she meant she was here and had demonic spirits fooling her, which my friend responded, 'No her spirit is with me, in my heart and always will be", which to me, made sense.

I'm sure her response is the same thing that Jesus meant when he talked about the Father, but keep in mind, my friend is also a Unitarian and tells me she ignores the trinity dogma at churches.

I give you credit for trying to have an online conversation about it, but you have too many who are indoctrinated by churches and their ego and pride to have a rational conversation about it. As you've mentioned, you're four pages in and no one has been able to explain your OP.
 

A Freeman

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I find it mildly amusing you have to explain this because I was talking to one of my friends the other weekend about an event in my life, and I mentioned to her my dad said he wishes my mum was here to see it. My friend, who also had her mum pass away a couple of years ago, replied, "I'm sure she knows. My mum is always with me". I had my friend clarify because I wanted to know if she meant she was here and had demonic spirits fooling her, which my friend responded, 'No her spirit is with me, in my heart and always will be", which to me, made sense.

I'm sure her response is the same thing that Jesus meant when he talked about the Father, but keep in mind, my friend is also a Unitarian and tells me she ignores the trinity dogma at churches.

I give you credit for trying to have an online conversation about it, but you have too many who are indoctrinated by churches and their ego and pride to have a rational conversation about it. As you've mentioned, you're four pages in and no one has been able to explain your OP.
Thank-you, both for sharing your story and for your kind words.

The idea of being at one with each other, and the rest of the Universe, is a foreign concept to humans. On this planet (with Lucifer/Satan/Iblis temporarily running it), division is taught instead, to keep everyone fighting and arguing and killing one another. Satan has even programmed people to believe that God is divided into different parts, through his (Satan's) organized religions and their teachers, all of which belong to him. Every organized religion does it, including the three that claim to be "monotheistic".

In a way, you have to admire the enemy's elegance. Satan uses our egos to get us to believe we have our own personal opinions, our own personal beliefs as to what is right and wrong, our own personal "truths" (plural), and that we are somehow caught up in this emotional storm of division and endless conflict.

When it is spiritually (and thus correctly) understood that we are AT ONE with our Creator, all of the division and conflict goes away. Competition (which humans falsely claim is "healthy") is likewise done away with, and with it the arguing and war that are part of the satanic divide and conquer strategy taught here on Earth.

What would this world be like if instead everyone realized that there is ONE Law -- our Creator's Law -- that provides the criterion for what is right and wrong? Instead of everyone having a different opinion (all of which are really just variations of Satan's opinion), we would all share ONE understanding of what was right and wrong.

What would this world be like if instead everyone realized that we are all ONE, with our Creator and with each other? As ONE we would all share in every learning experience, in every resource, in every task, in every responsibility and in every reward.

What would this world be like if instead everyone realized that we are all ONE with our Creator and with all of His Creation? As ONE we would all share in taking care to treat our natural surroundings with the love and respect that should engender everything our Creator has provided.

It is impossible to do God's Will while not being at ONE with Him. And that's exactly why God sent His Eldest/Firstborn Son: to teach us by His Example that doing God's Will, and being at ONE with everyone and everything IS possible, for WITH God, ALL things are possible.

The reason for sharing the truthful information within this thread is to potentially awaken and free the minds of those locked into their satanic, man-made doctrines, that they may come to know Father AND The One Whom Father Anointed and sent to be our Teacher, known here on Earth as "Christ".

Peace be upon you.
 
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Thank-you, both for sharing your story and for your kind words.

The idea of being at one with each other, and the rest of the Universe, is a foreign concept to humans. On this planet (with Lucifer/Satan/Iblis temporarily running it), division is taught instead, to keep everyone fighting and arguing and killing one another. Satan has even programmed people to believe that God is divided into different parts, through his (Satan's) organized religions and their teachers, all of which belong to him. Every organized religion does it, including the three that claim to be "monotheistic".

In a way, you have to admire the enemy's elegance. Satan uses our egos to get us to believe we have our own personal opinions, our own personal beliefs as to what is right and wrong, our own personal "truths" (plural), and that we are somehow caught up in this emotional storm of division and endless conflict.

When it is spiritually (and thus correctly) understood that we are AT ONE with our Creator, all of the division and conflict goes away. Competition (which humans falsely claim is "healthy") is likewise done away with, and with it the arguing and war that are part of the satanic divide and conquer strategy taught here on Earth.

What would this world be like if instead everyone realized that there is ONE Law -- our Creator's Law -- that provides the criterion for what is right and wrong? Instead of everyone having a different opinion (all of which are really just variations of Satan's opinion), we would all share ONE understanding of what was right and wrong.

What would this world be like if instead everyone realized that we are all ONE, with our Creator and with each other? As ONE we would all share in every learning experience, in every resource, in every task, in every responsibility and in every reward.

What would this world be like if instead everyone realized that we are all ONE with our Creator and with all of His Creation? As ONE we would all share in taking care to treat our natural surroundings with the love and respect that should engender everything our Creator has provided.

It is impossible to do God's Will while not being at ONE with Him. And that's exactly why God sent His Eldest/Firstborn Son: to teach us by His Example that doing God's Will, and being at ONE with everyone and everything IS possible, for WITH God, ALL things are possible.

The reason for sharing the truthful information within this thread is to potentially awaken and free the minds of those locked into their satanic, man-made doctrines, that they may come to know Father AND The One Whom Father Anointed and sent to be our Teacher, known here on Earth as "Christ".

Peace be upon you.
IMHO, when an individual experiences loss of loved ones, and unfortunately, I've experienced quite a number in the last few years, one starts to ask and really question what life is really about. So much of what divides people is superfluous and trivial, that you smirk and things that are constructed to divide us. All I know is my grief was real, but so was my love for them.

As you've said, satan is clever at his deception and even tempted Jesus for that matter, but clearly he knew what is here is temporal, as Jesus was here to spread the message you've indicated. It's what Jesus even said at the Mount, but there are some that simply don't get it. That's fine, and I'm making the broad assumption that their egos are frail and/or they're not willing to understand the message that Jesus was sent here to teach because it comes from within, a change of attitude/mindset. We're here to learn and understand what the Heavenly Father wants from us in order to spend an eternity with Him. Why is that so hard to comprehend? I don't know, but I'm grateful I have friends, family and coworkers who understand the message and do what we can to help people better their lives and themselves. I'll try to create a little heaven on earth while Jesus greets those who've actually entered it:

I posted this in another thread, but I'll post it here too as I find it relevant if you don't mind. It makes me know I WILL see my loved ones again:

Heaven - What Is it Like and Where Is it?
 
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They are at one with each other. Two individuals (Father and Son) of ONE MIND (like-minded). It obviously doesn't mean they are the same individual, because Father couldn't be greater than all others if they were one individual, could He?
That is literally the doctrine of the trinity. You really think you’re rediscovering the wheel here. It seems Jesus words “I and the Father are one” are a big issue for you because you are literally preaching the trinity now, two individuals of one spiritual substance.
Why would Father need to show Christ anything if Christ is allegedly the third part of The All-Knowing (Omniscient) God?
How could Christ allegedly be the third part of The All-Powerful (Omnipotent) God and yet not able to do anything on his own?
These don’t disprove the trinity at all. Christ can do nothing of his own because he is a part of the Father. Remember, “I and the Father are one”. He can’t do anything on his own because he is one with the Father. Whatever he does, the Father is doing as well.
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.

If Father and Christ are allegedly one individual, how could Christ utter these words in the presence of people who were looking directly at Christ-Jesus as Christ spoke these words through the mouth of Jesus?
They aren’t one individual. They are three separate individuals of one spiritual nature. You really don’t understand the trinity.
Anyone who ignores and refuses to believe Christ's own words, ALL of them -- NONE of which contradict themselves -- cannot possibly belong to Christ.
Ok, and you don’t believe Christ when he says “I and the Father are one” because you think jesus was just a really good person don’t you?

How about the phrase I quoted to free18 when he said
“This heresy that Yeshua is the Creator is not what the scriptures say.”
except the scriptures say
”The world was made by him (the Word)”
Jesus is the incarnated Word of God. He was in the beginning with God, and WAS God. All things were made by him. The word of God became flesh and dwelt among us. This is what the bible teaches. You don’t like it? Stick to Islam. Don’t go telling people its not in the bible.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Every trinitarian-duped "Christian" turns to this passage from Paul's letter to the Philippians, in the hope of contradicting Christ's own words with its very obvious MISTRANSLATION, just as you have done. Shame on you for calling Christ a liar.

When did Christ ever claim to be equal with God? Christ repeatedly and consistently proclaimed to the world THE TRUTH that Christ's Father and God is GREATER THAN he (Christ) is.

The Greek word ἁρπαγμὸν (harpagmon) is only found once in the Bible. It has been obviously mistranslated because it not only doesn't make sense in context, but it contradicts the words directly from the mouth of Jesus and from Paul, in Paul's other letters.

Here is what Christ actually said through the mouth of Jesus:

John 10:29 MY FATHER, which gave [them] me, IS GREATER THAN ALL; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; NEITHER HE THAT IS SENT GREATER THAN HE THAT SENT HIM.

Note: There are at least 52 references in the Gospel accounts to Christ being sent by God, including:-

Matthew (3): 10:40, 15:24, 21:37
Mark (2): 9:37, 12:6
Luke (6): 4:18, 4:26, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16, 20:13
John (41): 3:17, 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5:38, 6:29, 6:38, 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16, 7:28, 7:29, 7:33, 8:7, 8:9, 8:17, 8:20, 8:33, 9:4, 10:36, 11:42, 12:44, 12:45, 12:49, 13:16, 13:20, 14:24, 15:21, 16:5, 17:3, 17:18, 17:21, 17:23, 17:25, 20:21

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.

And here is what Paul said in his first letter to the Corinthians, Ephesians and Colossians (to keep it brief), :

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST [IS] GOD.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Christ), then shall the Son (Christ) also himself be subject unto Him (Father) that put all things under him (Christ), THAT GOD (Father) MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

Ephesians 1:17 THAT THE GOD OF OUR LORD CHRIST JESUS, THE FATHER OF GLORY, may give unto you the spirit of Wisdom and revelation in the Knowledge of Him:

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Christ the Saviour, praying always for you,


Returning back to the passage at hand (Philippians 2:5-11), and looking at it in context, it should be self-evident that God has the HIGHEST reputation there is, as He is the ONLY One Who is Perfect and Good. Again, turning to the words of Christ:-

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou ME good? [there is] none good but One, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into Life, keep the Commandments.

So if Christ made himself of no reputation (subjected Himself to human limitations), then Christ could not possibly have been claiming to be equal with God. And given ALL of Christ's own words on the subject, e.g. "MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I", Christ would have considered it robbery (a lie) to claim to be equal with God, which is why Christ NEVER said that.

Here is the correctly translated passage from Philippians 2:5-11, from the King of kings' Bible:-

Philippians 2:5-11
2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
2:6 Who, being in the likeness of God, thought it not correct to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made into the likeness of men:
2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
2:10 That at the name of the Saviour every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in Earth, and [things] under the earth;
2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Christ Jesus [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Please stop contradicting Christ, which is calling Christ a liar. If you truly believe that Christ is The Truth, then His Words MUST be believed and followed.

ALL of Christ's Teachings are about keeping Father's Law. ALL of them. Choose life and good (obedience to Father and His Law) over death and evil (slavery to sin).

The phrase “the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) was spoken by Jesus during the upper room discourse, and the greater context is the promising of the Holy Spirit to the disciples after Jesus’ resurrection. Jesus says repeatedly that He is doing the Father’s will, thereby implying that He is somehow subservient to the Father. The question then becomes how can Jesus be equal to God when by His own admission He is subservient to the will of God? The answer to this question lies within the nature of the incarnation.

During the incarnation, Jesus was temporarily “made lower than the angels” (Hebrews 2:9), which refers to Jesus’ status. The doctrine of the incarnation says that the second Person of the Trinity took on human flesh. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, Jesus was fully human and “made lower than the angels.” However, Jesus is fully divine, too. By taking on human nature, Jesus did not relinquish His divine nature—God cannot stop being God. How do we reconcile the fact that the second Person of the Trinity is fully divine yet fully human and by definition “lower than the angels”? The answer to that question can be found in Philippians 2:5-11. When the second Person of the Trinity took on human form, something amazing occurred. Christ “made himself nothing.” This phrase has generated more ink than almost any other phrase in the Bible. In essence, what it means is that Jesus voluntarily relinquished the prerogative of freely exercising His divine attributes and subjected Himself to the will of the Father while on earth.

Another thing to consider is the fact that subservience in role does not equate to subservience in essence. For example, consider an employer/employee relationship. The employer has the right to make demands of the employee, and the employee has the obligation to serve the employer. The roles clearly define a subservient relationship. However, both people are still human beings and share in the same human nature. There is no difference between the two as to their essence; they stand as equals. The fact that one is an employer and the other is an employee does nothing to alter the essential equality of these two individuals as human beings. The same can be said of the members of the Trinity. All three members (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are essentially equal; i.e., they are all divine in nature. However, in the grand plan of redemption, they play certain roles, and these roles define authority and subservience. The Father commands the Son, and the Father and the Son command the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, the fact that the Son took on a human nature and made Himself subservient to the Father in no way denies the deity of the Son, nor does it diminish His essential equality with the Father. The “greatness” spoken of in this verse, then, relates to role, not to essence.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Micah 5:2 - King James Version
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
I notice with interest that nobody has argues with Michah yet.

Btw - in Hebrew the word “everlasting” reads “before the foundation of the world”.

I find this one very interesting as pondering on it led Rabbi Zev Porat to faith in Jesus some time ago…

 
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