“Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone”

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
13,931
As a wider context, I found this recent discussion on pre-Islamic anti-Trinitarian beliefs in Syria very interesting, especially as some claim a non-Trinitarian “true Christianity” traced through Nestorians, Ebionites etc as set against a Pauline “Xtianity”

I don’t want to simplify your position @AspiringSoul but it does seem to have some similarities to that of Paul of Samosata (discussed 14:30 into the clip posted below)

B852BB3F-F989-4625-BB07-6CE1757FB323.png

 
Last edited:

Daze

Superstar
Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
5,824
Not at all @Daze - a number of people have used that verse without working through its implications. I wanted you to consider them as in doing so it may open your eyes to the meaning of the passage.

The man and the reader are both invited to consider the question “why do you call me good?”. In doing so, the commandments are set as the standard and the man falls short due to covetousness.

To the question, does Jesus fall short?
You mean you twist it to grant confirmation bias. I mean in plain English Jesus says "why do you cal me good, only God is good".
Here's an experiment Red. Go read that verse to a 9, 10 year old and ask him what it means.
Don't tell him, ask him.

There are just so many verses attacking your core belief its unfathomable. Such as Aspire mentions Jesus's knowledge. Your own book says Jesus doesn't know when the hour is coming. This alone is contradictory as God is thee source of all knowledge. How does God not know a date He alone has set?

Why do you never reflect? Just chase people and stories and videos that make man worship feel good. What do you think the Almighty will do to you on the last day?

I've asked this question many times and always ignored so I'm sure you will ignore it as well. So tell me, the man who spends his entire life worshiping Prophet Noah, is he ever seeing heaven?
 
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
3,150
There are so many flaws with worshiping Jesus Red, i mean the man says "my God, MY God, why have you forsaken me!!
The man is often described as praying with face on ground in Your Book. You worship the worshiper.
The man tells you in several verses he can do absolutely Nothing without God in Your book.
The man tells you God gave him life.
Numerous verses show all who were around Jesus saw him as a Prophet and called him as such.

I mean i can go on, there are over 90 Verses in Your book that reject your core beliefs.
How do trinitarians understand these verses?
 

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
13,931
You mean you twist it to grant confirmation bias. I mean in plain English Jesus says "why do you cal me good, only God is good".
Here's an experiment Red. Go read that verse to a 9, 10 year old and ask him what it means.
Don't tell him, ask him.
I notice a slight re-wording of the question…

Did Jesus answer a question with a question in other places? Did He always make sure the hearers fully understood??

Consider this passage from John 6…

53Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

59These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Turn Away
60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62Whatthen if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
 

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
13,931
Why do you never reflect?
I would perhaps answer this question by saying that I reflect far more than my family would like me to!!!

Personality aside, to help you understand my thought process I don’t know if you have ever read (or listened to) C.S.Lewis’s excellent “Meditation in a Toolshed”?


“Looking at” and “looking along”

In it, to paraphrase, he sits in the dark and observes a beam of light piercing the darkness of the shed. He sees the dust moving in the light and studies it’s properties for a time. He then puts his eye within the beam and his vision is transformed. He sees the garden, the sun and the darkness of the shed disappears.

In the same way, looking at Jesus from outside the restored relationship that faith brings is like sitting in the dark examining without understanding the apparent properties of light. It is hard for the person who has seen the garden to enter into academic conjecture with someone who has never stepped into the beam on the likelihood (it otherwise) of there being an actual garden out there when his experience tells him there is.

I have seen and experienced the power of God and the victory over the powers of darkness in the name of Jesus. I know the power of His shed blood. I have had prayers answered numerous times and live daily in relationship with the Lord. I make mistakes, fall and he takes me graciously by the hand and picks me up. I take no credit for the changes in me that He has worked over the years. I don’t mean to come over as dismissive of certain types of argument but for me they are like speculating on square circles.

God bless.

0A282AF5-0B0E-450E-B4F8-F287145F65C8.jpeg
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
3,907
As a wider context, I found this recent discussion on pre-Islamic anti-Trinitarian beliefs in Syria very interesting, especially as some claim a non-Trinitarian “true Christianity” traced through Nestorians, Ebionites etc as set against a Pauline “Xtianity”

I don’t want to simplify your position @AspiringSoul but it does seem to have some similarities to that of Paul of Samosata (discussed 14:30 into the clip posted below)

View attachment 68897

you're too transparent, it is boring man.
'oooh Mohammad took his beliefs from a nestorian monk'
no matter how you tried to veil the argument, it was too obv what angle you're coming from.

listen, i dont give a flying eff about nestorians or anything else. the New testament speaks for itself...what you believe is not new testament, it is roman polythiesm with a white man-god as a representation of roman-greco orientalism who essentially submitted to the power of Rome.



Also, do you have any self-respect? any ounce of credibility?
that man with the beard in the video, was the same mong who kept on arguing that the real mecca was petra.
as soon as archeological finds found the earliest dated mosque in palestine pointing to Mecca, that argument ended. However, you xtians score too many Ls but just pretend. see, if i see a muslim score Ls like that, i don't even bother with him ever again.
it just means he is clueless and not willing to openly admit he was wrong.
yet you're clinging onto these people because i think it's all you've got left. if you were smart you'd distance yourself from liars.


fyi, no, the Logos is not 'only an instrument of God'. it is universal consciousness, it is the highest state of consciousness possible, it is eternal. it is the eternal expression of the primordial essence. I compared it to 0 which is infinity.
Few people, regardless of religion, understand this theme. For example they think 'only Allah is eternal' and yet if they deduced from the nature of existance itself, they would conclude that 'self' only exists in the knowledge of God. everything we perceive of as real is within the knowledge of God, yet the knowledge of God of all things is eternal. So where do all those things exist ie the knowledge of God? it is that same primordial 'ink', the LOGOS.



'rejected Jesus's pre-existence' erm, well no...technically every single thing past present or future has existed in the logos, eternally, since God has always known about everything eternally. So from that pov, Jesus is eternal and so is everything else. The uniqueness of Jesus is that he is an incarnation of the logos and the messiah. The 'pre-existance' refers to the LOGOS not to Jesus but if you mean he was always the messiah...then technically that is correct, but that's a higher perspective.

'Mary didn't give birth to the logos, only the man'
that makes no sense. Jesus IS the logos aswell as the man. the Quran says it, Mohammad says it.

so clearly islam isn't borrowed from those sects.

you're also trying to change the topic from what we were discussion. the origins of the pagan trinity, it's connection to hindu and persian philosophy. peoplel ike plotinus and st augustine leading to Athanasius who was a neanderthal in understanding.
apart from that, martin luther the lunatic and henry 8th the bigger lunatic, made you protestant.

so you people went from catholic pagan and paying church tithes, to slave of the whore of babylon who only has authority because the same vatican satanic elite have given the ok. you think the elite who create protestantism werent working for the vatican? it was exactly like communism vs capitalism, the same people control both sides.
 

Daze

Superstar
Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
5,824
I notice a slight re-wording of the question…

Did Jesus answer a question with a question in other places? Did He always make sure the hearers fully understood??

Consider this passage from John 6…

53Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

59These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Turn Away
60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62Whatthen if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
I would perhaps answer this question by saying that I reflect far more than my family would like me to!!!

Personality aside, to help you understand my thought process I don’t know if you have ever read (or listened to) C.S.Lewis’s excellent “Meditation in a Toolshed”?


“Looking at” and “looking along”

In it, to paraphrase, he sits in the dark and observes a beam of light piercing the darkness of the shed. He sees the dust moving in the light and studies it’s properties for a time. He then puts his eye within the beam and his vision is transformed. He sees the garden, the sun and the darkness of the shed disappears.

In the same way, looking at Jesus from outside the restored relationship that faith brings is like sitting in the dark examining without understanding the apparent properties of light. It is hard for the person who has seen the garden to enter into academic conjecture with someone who has never stepped into the beam on the likelihood (it otherwise) of there being an actual garden out there when his experience tells him there is.

I have seen and experienced the power of God and the victory over the powers of darkness in the name of Jesus. I know the power of His shed blood. I have had prayers answered numerous times and live daily in relationship with the Lord. I make mistakes, fall and he takes me graciously by the hand and picks me up. I take no credit for the changes in me that He has worked over the years. I don’t mean to come over as dismissive of certain types of argument but for me they are like speculating on square circles.

God bless.

View attachment 69003

You don't reflect Red, not at all.

Here's a video with Joshua Evans. A Christian convert to Islam. (One you won't watch, but maybe God will guide others with it)
 

Onatramnas

Rookie
Joined
Dec 28, 2021
Messages
45
How do trinitarians understand these verses?
Jesus quoted Old Testament scripture throughout his teachings and this is no exception as He quotes psalm 22:1. Again pointing the people to the sacred scriptures to show them He is indeed the Messiah.
Not to mention that Jesus was fully man and fully God yet he humbled himself even to the point of death on a cross, bearing the full weight of God’s wrath against sin, the physical pain as well as the emotional agony of full separation from God, what the sinner rightly deserves. I can imagine that’s the worst physical and emotional pain a human can endure. And our God loves us as his creation that much, to experience the full human experience of in utero, birth, growing up, temptation, ridicule and rejection and betrayal and ultimately a violent painful death. And yet committed no sin, a second Adam showing the rest of us how we were supposed to live. He died as a blood offering to cover the sins of those who will believe. He rose again, defeating death. Its mind boggling yes but beautiful and glorious and I believe it with every atom of my being.
 
Joined
Oct 31, 2021
Messages
629
Was Jesus good or bad? If bad, why?

Ofcourse good.

Any alive human being who, daily, try to merge their Individual consciousness with the Universal consciousness via digging within (themself) will gradually end up finding themself not able to act any bad (even if they try or wanted to)!

Bad, if at all, comes from the human mind. By digging within/inside, the human mind gradually loses its prowess. OTOH, the Human Heart gradually takes good control.

N.B.:- Albeit, without the presence of mind, the temporary Matrix's presence and it's experience (via 5 senses) isn't possible as well.
 
Joined
Oct 31, 2021
Messages
629
Albeit, good or bad?

IMHO, It isn't that simple akin to a binary speculation!



Every being who had been alive, walked on the face of the Earth, may have had committed some degree of ill actions, either knowingly or innocently. Practically, Nobody is absolutely a hundred percent clean. Me neither.
 

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
13,931
Every being who had been alive, walked on the face of the Earth, may have had committed some degree of ill actions, either knowingly or innocently. Practically, Nobody is absolutely a hundred percent clean. Me neither.
Quite right…

Romans 3…

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The wider context is worth reading though!
 

Onatramnas

Rookie
Joined
Dec 28, 2021
Messages
45
Ofcourse good.

Any alive human being who, daily, try to merge their Individual consciousness with the Universal consciousness via digging within (themself) will gradually end up finding themself not able to act any bad (even if they try or wanted to)!

Bad, if at all, comes from the human mind. By digging within/inside, the human mind gradually loses its prowess. OTOH, the Human Heart gradually takes good control.

N.B.:- Albeit, without the presence of mind, the temporary Matrix's presence and it's experience (via 5 senses) isn't possible as well.
I do not agree at all. The concept of bad does not come from the human mind. Bad can only make sense if there is a good to compare it to. There has to be a standard of good in order for bad to make sense. Man does not set the standard of good, although we do have knowledge of good placed in us by our creator. We naturally through our inherited sin nature suppress the truth of goodness in our bent toward unrighteousness. As Ephesians states
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (Ephesians 2:1-3)
The fact is that until the Holy Spirit softens the heart of stone, man cannot even comprehend good let alone set a standard for good. Even acts that look good on the outside are motivated by sinful selfish intent.
 

floss

Star
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
2,255
Ofcourse good.

Any alive human being who, daily, try to merge their Individual consciousness with the Universal consciousness via digging within (themself) will gradually end up finding themself not able to act any bad (even if they try or wanted to)!

Bad, if at all, comes from the human mind. By digging within/inside, the human mind gradually loses its prowess. OTOH, the Human Heart gradually takes good control.

N.B.:- Albeit, without the presence of mind, the temporary Matrix's presence and it's experience (via 5 senses) isn't possible as well.
I'm not sure what your belief are but thank you for believing that Jesus is Good. Muslim like to use that verse against Christians but refused to admit that Jesus was, indeed, Good. It would've shattered their belief that Jesus was Good, and only God is Good. They just want their cake and eat it too.

Keep believing that Jesus is good my friend. I pray you'll encounter the Good Shepard on your journey. God bless you and keep you!
 
Joined
Oct 31, 2021
Messages
629
I do not agree at all. The concept of bad does not come from the human mind.
..
..
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (Ephesians 2:1-3)
..

Sire, I am afraid it is evident that your comprehension is contrary to that you are quoting.


And I absolutely concur to Ephesians 2:1-3 that you have quoted. Indeed the human mind is the charioteer of the 5 horses - lust, anger, attachment, greed and ego - these 5 basically govern everything in the temporary Matrix called existence. The unnecessary hoarding of them transient fruits of the temporary Matrix is quintessential to these 5.


Human Heart has got nothing on - these 5 OR any of the transient fruits of the temporary Matrix OR infact even the temporary Matrix as whole.


.... Bad can only make sense if there is a good to compare it to. There has to be a standard of good in order for bad to make sense.....
I concur, Sire.


...Man does not set the standard of good,..

Sire, what would you say to those freemaSOBs who say that they are the standard of good and they do what they do - for the betterment of humankind? In their own eyes, after all they have been and are setting a benchmark for universal good. And these SOBs are everywhere, deputed on those official, govt., admin., judicial positions on planet Earth.
Its a rhetorical + satirical question though!


We naturally through our inherited sin nature suppress the truth of goodness in our bent toward unrighteousness.

I beg to differ, Sire. Everything begins with a choice. The choice to stay in the realm of very noisy mind (that goes pretty well, hand in hand, with the Matrix though), OR to listen to the Heart (which is a silent observer & already clean/incorruptible btw).


The importance thing is to understand that it is not good and bad like black and white. Rather it is a process to overcome from bad and gradually attain good. In a 70 to 80 years of average lifespan, we do exactly that everyday. We chose. Those of us who make their Heart strong like a Lion are able to transform themselves once and forever (till they attain death). We listen to their story only, it stays in various scriptures. Passed on to ages. Otherwise there are the rest of us human beings who came alive and attained death too but nobody knows anything of them. The former list is handful/countable and the latter is unending. And that is why, sinned has every human being -- but who transformed selves at some point in their lives and never went back to sin or to the temptations of sin are the ones remembered on planet Earth as Legends.


The fact is that until the Holy Spirit softens the heart of stone, man cannot even comprehend good let alone set a standard for good.

I concur. But I would propose, the Holy Spirit won't do nothing on its own, automatically; whilst the being is sitting idle!


There has to be an effort on the part of the Human Being. Is the human being him/herself even wanting to attain transformation genuinely?


The holy spirit is the only portal available to all living human beings to be able to meet with the heavenly Father. Holy spirit that is (most nearest) inside Heart already all living human beings themselves. Inside, is the key word here.


Even acts that look good on the outside are motivated by sinful selfish intent.

Agree and disagree too, Sire. Its again not as simple as it seems. My perspective is, what would you say to a man who earns say 100% each year and donates 90% of it via facilitating/providing food, clothing and shelter to the poorest of poor and impoverished? And does no advertisement of it. Would this example be called selfish as well?
 

TokiEl

Superstar
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
7,239
The god of the quran is outed as the devil in Isaiah 14... so quoting the quran is the same as quoting the devil.



There will be no unity among humans as long as some base their lives on the words of the devil.

In the meantime humanity is not only under attack but facing extinction.



What did you do at this crucial point in human history ?

Oh i was regurgitating the devil's drivel.


Is that how you want to be remembered ?
 
Last edited:

AdjeYen

Established
Joined
Mar 11, 2020
Messages
146
He’s answering a question with a question. And then answering the question. He is good. And no one is good except God, and this is why they call him good, because he is God.
Says who?
Then why did Jesus say that no one is good except God? He wasn't referring to himself, but to God.
Who's God, do you think he was talking about himself since you just compared Jesus with God? Great logic, you Christians are something else.
 
Top