Red Sky at Morning
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“If God did not create evil then who did? Who has the power of creation in your universe?”
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Red Sky at Morning
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Perhaps a good place to start is with an exploration of the implications and consequences of God creating independent, free-willed creatures…
“When we have understood free will, we shall see how silly it is to ask, as somebody once asked me, ‘Why did God make a creature of such rotten stuff that it went wrong?’ The better stuff a creature is made of—the cleverer and stronger and freer it is—then the better it will be if it goes right, but also the worse it will be if it goes wrong. A cow cannot be very good or very bad; a dog can be both better and worse; a child better and worse still; an ordinary man, still more so; a man of genius, still more so; a superhuman spirit best—or worst—of all.”
C.S.Lewis, Mere Christianity
“When we have understood free will, we shall see how silly it is to ask, as somebody once asked me, ‘Why did God make a creature of such rotten stuff that it went wrong?’ The better stuff a creature is made of—the cleverer and stronger and freer it is—then the better it will be if it goes right, but also the worse it will be if it goes wrong. A cow cannot be very good or very bad; a dog can be both better and worse; a child better and worse still; an ordinary man, still more so; a man of genius, still more so; a superhuman spirit best—or worst—of all.”
C.S.Lewis, Mere Christianity
Thus says the Lord to his messiah/christ, to Cyrus,
whose right hand I have grasped,
to subdue nations before him
and ungird the loins of kings,
to open doors before him
that gates may not be closed:
“I will go before you
and level the mountains,
I will break in pieces the doors of bronze
and cut asunder the bars of iron,
I will give you the treasures of darkness
and the hoards in secret places,
that you may know that it is I, the Lord,
the God of Israel, who call you by your name.
For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I surname you, though you do not know me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I gird you, though you do not know me,
that men may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe,
I am the Lord, who do all these things.
“Shower, O heavens, from above,
and let the skies rain down righteousness;
let the earth open, that salvation may sprout forth,
and let it cause righteousness to spring up also;
I the Lord have created it.
“Woe to him who strives with his Maker,
an earthen vessel with the potter!
Does the clay say to him who fashions it, ‘What are you making?’
or ‘Your work has no handles’?
Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’
or to a woman, ‘With what are you in travail?’”
Thus says the Lord,
the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:
“Will you question me about my children,
or command me concerning the work of my hands?
I made the earth,
and created man upon it;
it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
and I commanded all their host.
I have aroused him in righteousness,
and I will make straight all his ways;
he shall build my city
and set my exiles free,
not for price or reward,”
says the Lord of hosts.
Thus says the Lord:
“The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Ethiopia,
and the Sabe′ans, men of stature,
shall come over to you and be yours,
they shall follow you;
they shall come over in chains and bow down to you.
They will make supplication to you, saying:
‘God is with you only, and there is no other,
no god besides him.’”
Truly, thou art a God who hidest thyself,
O God of Israel, the Savior.
All of them are put to shame and confounded,
the makers of idols go in confusion together.
But Israel is saved by the Lord
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.
For thus says the Lord,
who created the heavens
(he is God!),
who formed the earth and made it
(he established it;
he did not create it a chaos,
he formed it to be inhabited!):
“I am the Lord, and there is no other.
I did not speak in secret,
in a land of darkness;
I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
‘Seek me in chaos.’
I the Lord speak the truth,
I declare what is right.
- Isaiah 45:1-19
whose right hand I have grasped,
to subdue nations before him
and ungird the loins of kings,
to open doors before him
that gates may not be closed:
“I will go before you
and level the mountains,
I will break in pieces the doors of bronze
and cut asunder the bars of iron,
I will give you the treasures of darkness
and the hoards in secret places,
that you may know that it is I, the Lord,
the God of Israel, who call you by your name.
For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I surname you, though you do not know me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I gird you, though you do not know me,
that men may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe,
I am the Lord, who do all these things.
“Shower, O heavens, from above,
and let the skies rain down righteousness;
let the earth open, that salvation may sprout forth,
and let it cause righteousness to spring up also;
I the Lord have created it.
“Woe to him who strives with his Maker,
an earthen vessel with the potter!
Does the clay say to him who fashions it, ‘What are you making?’
or ‘Your work has no handles’?
Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’
or to a woman, ‘With what are you in travail?’”
Thus says the Lord,
the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:
“Will you question me about my children,
or command me concerning the work of my hands?
I made the earth,
and created man upon it;
it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
and I commanded all their host.
I have aroused him in righteousness,
and I will make straight all his ways;
he shall build my city
and set my exiles free,
not for price or reward,”
says the Lord of hosts.
Thus says the Lord:
“The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Ethiopia,
and the Sabe′ans, men of stature,
shall come over to you and be yours,
they shall follow you;
they shall come over in chains and bow down to you.
They will make supplication to you, saying:
‘God is with you only, and there is no other,
no god besides him.’”
Truly, thou art a God who hidest thyself,
O God of Israel, the Savior.
All of them are put to shame and confounded,
the makers of idols go in confusion together.
But Israel is saved by the Lord
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.
For thus says the Lord,
who created the heavens
(he is God!),
who formed the earth and made it
(he established it;
he did not create it a chaos,
he formed it to be inhabited!):
“I am the Lord, and there is no other.
I did not speak in secret,
in a land of darkness;
I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
‘Seek me in chaos.’
I the Lord speak the truth,
I declare what is right.
- Isaiah 45:1-19
Red Sky at Morning
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James 1
King James Version
Perseverance in Temptation
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16Do not err, my beloved brethren. 17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
King James Version
Perseverance in Temptation
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16Do not err, my beloved brethren. 17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Red Sky at Morning
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Genesis 1
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
And repeat….
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
And repeat….
“See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you this day, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you this day, that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land which you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,
loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days, that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
- Deuteronomy 30:15-20
If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you this day, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you this day, that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land which you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,
loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days, that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
- Deuteronomy 30:15-20
Red Sky at Morning
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Surely the creation and fall of lucifer has got to be worth considering in this context. Did God make him to be an enemy, or did he have free will?
Ezekiel 28
A Lament over the King of Tyre
11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Ezekiel 28
A Lament over the King of Tyre
11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
voj
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God is the father of narcissism, megalomaniacism, egoism no wonder he is driven by it and the devil was inspired by God's personalitys. Yet! With so much power the devil still rebelled, its a shame we are all willed in God's will and there is nothing we cant do about it.
Life sucks.
Life sucks.
seekinheart
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Do you think God knew he would rebel I've heard people say that God did not know Satan would rebel. Which I don't agree with personally.
Lyfe
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Red Sky at Morning
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There is a whole school of speculation which asks questions like “could God create a rock so big He couldn’t lift it” etc…
As far as God’s foreknowledge (and how it works) the only answers would come from within the unique nature of God, since the only way to know that would be to have access to faculties nobody other that God has or will possess!
God doesn’t reveal it all to us, yet as you read the OT, you begin to notice that the events of the NT and even of our present geopolitical climate are anticipated. Did God make the Jews reject Jesus? Did He make Moses strike the rock twice? The quandary of free will and predestination may never be fully comprehensible, but I venture we will understand it better the closer to the Lord we become.
voj
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Ok!
Red Sky at Morning
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What's your definition of evil? God stated in the bible he uses natural forces (storms, hurricanes, drought etc) to punish nations, he also uses other nation to punish others. That's as far as that "evil" goes.
Murder, r*pe, etc does not come from God, but man, sometimes under the influence of devils. When the Israelites passed their children through the fire to Moloch He said the Thought of such never entered his mind. God is holy, and not the author of wickedness.
The idea of a god being the author of both good and wickedness is a pagan invention. The Gnostics believed that good and evil (all evil and wickedness) was of their god, basically two sides of the same coin. The higher ranking Gnostics known as the perfecti or "perfect ones" in each society believed they were above good and evil, and could do anything they chose to do. This is where Gnostic magi Aleister Crowley got the idea of "do what thou will shall be the whole of the law". They also turned the OT on its head claiming the serpent (satan) was the hero and Jehovah (ildabaoth) was the bad one for keeping man from " knowledge" they emphasize the word "knowledge" without mentioning the knowledge being withheld was of good and evil. They just believe God was trying to withhold all knowledge. This is where the Gnostic book of Enoch comes in and shows how certain "angels" (archons) were responsible for actually creating civilisation and giving man knowledge since God withheld it.
Murder, r*pe, etc does not come from God, but man, sometimes under the influence of devils. When the Israelites passed their children through the fire to Moloch He said the Thought of such never entered his mind. God is holy, and not the author of wickedness.
The idea of a god being the author of both good and wickedness is a pagan invention. The Gnostics believed that good and evil (all evil and wickedness) was of their god, basically two sides of the same coin. The higher ranking Gnostics known as the perfecti or "perfect ones" in each society believed they were above good and evil, and could do anything they chose to do. This is where Gnostic magi Aleister Crowley got the idea of "do what thou will shall be the whole of the law". They also turned the OT on its head claiming the serpent (satan) was the hero and Jehovah (ildabaoth) was the bad one for keeping man from " knowledge" they emphasize the word "knowledge" without mentioning the knowledge being withheld was of good and evil. They just believe God was trying to withhold all knowledge. This is where the Gnostic book of Enoch comes in and shows how certain "angels" (archons) were responsible for actually creating civilisation and giving man knowledge since God withheld it.
voj
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Since God is the begining of all things, its clear to see that everything even man is wheel under his control. I just found out this morning that i dont know shit and its thought provokes me living a life through the lens of another.
In fact, fuck life. War is coming and nobody is ready to do nothing about it. Everyone is busy waiting to see it come and then die and go to heaven and hell.
In fact, fuck life. War is coming and nobody is ready to do nothing about it. Everyone is busy waiting to see it come and then die and go to heaven and hell.
Red Sky at Morning
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@voj
I don’t know if you have any kids but I think we are given a lot of insight through them.
I remember feeling overwhelmed after we had two of them and going to a talk on parenting. The speaker said something I still remember years later:
“Don’t take all the credit, don’t take all the blame”
Both my kids arrived “created” by me and my wife, but entirely their own people. We knew them so well we could often predict what they might do in certain circumstances, but we would have no real influence to “make” them say or do certain things (often with a Muslim or alarming results).
God reveals Himself as “Father” for many reasons, but I think one is that we are given our own lives, choices and families to help illustrate as we go through life just what a father means.
Perhaps the most poignant image of our state is the story of the “Prodigal Son” whose father allows his young, wayward son to choose a life that will bring him sorrow, but welcomes him back with open arms if he changes his mind and chooses to return?
I don’t know if you have any kids but I think we are given a lot of insight through them.
I remember feeling overwhelmed after we had two of them and going to a talk on parenting. The speaker said something I still remember years later:
“Don’t take all the credit, don’t take all the blame”
Both my kids arrived “created” by me and my wife, but entirely their own people. We knew them so well we could often predict what they might do in certain circumstances, but we would have no real influence to “make” them say or do certain things (often with a Muslim or alarming results).
God reveals Himself as “Father” for many reasons, but I think one is that we are given our own lives, choices and families to help illustrate as we go through life just what a father means.
Perhaps the most poignant image of our state is the story of the “Prodigal Son” whose father allows his young, wayward son to choose a life that will bring him sorrow, but welcomes him back with open arms if he changes his mind and chooses to return?
voj
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Bull shit, it still doesnt make any sense.
ISWIM
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Lucifer aka Satan who was once a high ranking angel. When the great plan was being prepared Lucifer wanted the glory and promised to bring all of God's children back . This is a wicked principal , because it does not allow for choice or free will. Lucifer would force all to return.
When Lucifer chose to war against Heavenly Father , he was cast out . Light and darkness are eternal principals .Choice and agency are eternal principals. God does not force anyone . Meaning they are not created , but choices one abides. One is either ruled by the other according to his own will.
AspiringSoul
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seekinheart
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That's not a thing