God already planned our lives, and we are merely just going along with the script. What say you?

Oceanic

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And the bit about multitude in heaven starring people from every nation and tongue? Or any of Paul's words about there being no more Jew or Gentile? Or even the interactions Jesus himself had with Gentiles? If you are correct then god created the other billions of people for nothing but pointless torture. It's not about racism it's about sadism. Such a god does not deserve to be worshipped or even respected.
You do know there are people who are descendants of slaves that live in different countries and speak all kinds of languages right? That's who God is referring to. Paul was saying all Israelites, Jew, or gentile- see because there's two groups of gentiles: There's the other Nations, and then there's the Israelites who were PUT in other Nations because of slavery. I live in America, another Nation, which is not my true home.

No, if I'm correct then the purpose for the others being created is because God was punishing his people for rebelling against him, SO he gave the other Nations the riches of the Israelites as punishment and allowed them to overpower the Israelites. Why do you think America, MAINLY, has an entire system made to put people of color, especially Black people down? The second reason they were created was to bring tribulation among the Israelites...which is kind of the same as the first reason. That's not sadistic, it's just punishment.

And I'll be honest: As a person of color, I also don't like the fact we had to be enslaved and go through all that just for rebelling against him. I feel that is too extreme of a punishment, but it happened and it is what it is. I'm just glad Israelites have a chance of redemption.
 

Oceanic

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Even Jesus had a choice to follow God's will or not
"Father, take this cup from me, nevertheless not my will but thine be done"
So in that simple sentence it is clear there is a divine will and a human will which can be more or less aligned. Jesus could choose to not do what his purpose was, but he sacrificed that so God's plan could be fulfilled through him. So no its not only God's choice, its peoples choice too.
"Even the chosen will be deceived in those times" so your theory that the "chosen" whatever status you are ascribing that to, i believe you do so racially correct, are on a railway ride to heaven with no stops is false, obviously they can be deceived or they can not. Also if its all just automatic, why would there be all the exortations in the bible to pray to ask for wisdom etc. That is a choice of free will. Your whole argument seems like a cop out to me
"Father, take this cup from me, nevertheless NOT MY WILL, but THINE be done"

The will of God will be completed no matter what. Things are going to end the way he wants it to because he, as quoted by himself, is in control. So Christ is just admitting it. Christ couldn't choose to NOT get sacrificed because that is the ONLY purpose of his existence: death for the chance of redemption for his people. That's it. Yes, the chosen can be deceived, but they're chosen so that means they won't be deceived to the point of falling away.
 

shankara

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Predestination is a pretty central doctrine of Protestantism. Calvinists even believe that God predestins those who go to hell to eternal suffering before they are even born.
 
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"Father, take this cup from me, nevertheless NOT MY WILL, but THINE be done"

The will of God will be completed no matter what. Things are going to end the way he wants it to because he, as quoted by himself, is in control. So Christ is just admitting it. Christ couldn't choose to NOT get sacrificed because that is the ONLY purpose of his existence: death for the chance of redemption for his people. That's it. Yes, the chosen can be deceived, but they're chosen so that means they won't be deceived to the point of falling away.
Saying “not my will“ implies that he has his own human will that he willingly sacrifices for Gods will. Further confirmed here
.”Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
so this says there’s three wills that are a part of people - the will of the flesh, desire, instinct etc, the will of man, free will, and Gods will which is accessed through the sacrifice of the human will
Shown again here-“John 7 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own“choice is free will.
“10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified”the heart is a persons own, who someone really is, that’s what justifies, how the heart is oriented not predetermination. the free will can’t be predetermined
 

Cintra

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Assuming the bible is right, and god exists...

I always felt that the devil was not some rebel angel.
I thought he must be doing a job for god. Working for him.

Because if God is God, and the devil is just an angel, then God could squash him like a fly any time he wanted.
But he doesn't. He let's him do whatever he is doing.

Therefore they are in collusion together.
They are not opposed, they are working together.
The devil is God's red right hand.
 
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“You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love” Galatians
 

Drifter

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You do know there are people who are descendants of slaves that live in different countries and speak all kinds of languages right? That's who God is referring to. Paul was saying all Israelites, Jew, or gentile- see because there's two groups of gentiles: There's the other Nations, and then there's the Israelites who were PUT in other Nations because of slavery. I live in America, another Nation, which is not my true home.

No, if I'm correct then the purpose for the others being created is because God was punishing his people for rebelling against him, SO he gave the other Nations the riches of the Israelites as punishment and allowed them to overpower the Israelites. Why do you think America, MAINLY, has an entire system made to put people of color, especially Black people down? The second reason they were created was to bring tribulation among the Israelites...which is kind of the same as the first reason. That's not sadistic, it's just punishment.

And I'll be honest: As a person of color, I also don't like the fact we had to be enslaved and go through all that just for rebelling against him. I feel that is too extreme of a punishment, but it happened and it is what it is. I'm just glad Israelites have a chance of redemption.
Your contention on slavery might hold water if black people were the only group to have been enslaved. Far from it. Either way, you're entitled to your interpretation. My understanding is that there's not a single scripture to support this theory.
 

Oceanic

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Assuming the bible is right, and god exists...

I always felt that the devil was not some rebel angel.
I thought he must be doing a job for god. Working for him.

Because if God is God, and the devil is just an angel, then God could squash him like a fly any time he wanted.
But he doesn't. He let's him do whatever he is doing.

Therefore they are in collusion together.
They are not opposed, they are working together.
The devil is God's red right hand.
Well, you'd be correct in some sense because if you have read the story of Job, there is a verse where satan asks God, "Can I tempt Job?" God says yes. See, this is implying even the devil is taking part in completing God's will, which is the testing of the chosen ones, and bringing tribulation unto them. That is again going all the way back to where God bluntly states he created both good and evil. As I mentioned earlier, this world was originally for his chosen people but it became a battleground for them instead. So in conclusion, satan IS technically working for God.

This may not 100% be accurate, so again, this isn't me teaching you, but rather expressing my take on this. I just want to remind everyone I could definitely be wrong.
 

Oceanic

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Your contention on slavery might hold water if black people were the only group to have been enslaved. Far from it. Either way, you're entitled to your interpretation. My understanding is that there's not a single scripture to support this theory.
Would you like to continue this because there is definitely evidence and although this post is mainly regarding if our lives are pre-destined or not, the chosen ones do in fact have a mention here so...
 

Cintra

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This may not 100% be accurate, so again, this isn't me teaching you, but rather expressing my take on this. I just want to remind everyone I could definitely be wrong.
Yes! This.
If everyone put this at the end of their posts there would be more reasoned discussion and less stupid arguments.

Very interesting thread.

Yes. Job is a very good example.
Poor Job.
That (in my opinion) was a nasty thing to do to someone.

It is like god and the devil got together to perform social experiments on him.
Like he was a rat in a cage.
"What will it do if we do this?"
 

Oceanic

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Yes! This.
If everyone put this at the end of their posts there would be more reasoned discussion and less stupid arguments.

Very interesting thread.

Yes. Job is a very good example.
Poor Job.
That (in my opinion) was a nasty thing to do to someone.

It is like god and the devil got together to perform social experiments on him.
Like he was a rat in a cage.
"What will it do if we do this?"
I can agree to an extent, however Job turns out to be one of God's chosen ones meaning he would be fine in the end anyway.

Also, thanks for the compliment. If anyone watching or lurking would like to talk to me about this whether here, or privately, please do! Not many people discuss this topic!
 

Axl888

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Proverbs 16:9

9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.
 
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No I think we have free will, so its not predetermined in that sense, however I do believe that certain people may be destined towards certain things, but I think ultimately they can choose not to follow that path or destiny.

So in a way I agree with the OP but in a way I also disagree.
 
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Your contention on slavery might hold water if black people were the only group to have been enslaved. Far from it. Either way, you're entitled to your interpretation. My understanding is that there's not a single scripture to support this theory.
black people are the only people to be enslaved on the 4 corners of the earth. Black slaves in North america, South America, europe, and Asia, the Pacific Islands as well. Sorry no other people come close to that,.

the bible speaks of the Israelites speaking other people's "tongues" Tongues of those who enslaved them. That does not apply to anybody else but black people who speak the languages of their captors (English, French, Spanish, Portugese, Arabic)

the prophecy's are also clear that in the last days the Israelites will be the bottom people in the world. No other race is suffering worldwide as much as the so called blacks.

Europeans and Asians have the power. Even Arabs have more power on this earth than blacks.

Its pretty clear where to look if you want to find the truth.
 

DavidSon

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Predestination is a pretty central doctrine of Protestantism. Calvinists even believe that God predestins those who go to hell to eternal suffering before they are even born.
Their doctrine is even more dramatic than that. The wiki entry says the Calvinists "believe that God picked those whom he will save and bring with him to Heaven before the world was created. They also believe that those people God does not save will go to Hell."

In fairness it appears that all religions and philosophers have wrestled with the concept of predestination. I think the question of free will vs. predestination is an interesting paradox( and good science-fiction material lol). Notwithstanding the belief in an omniscient intelligence that caused the universe to be, if we were to remove the dimension of time overlaying our perception of reality, then isn't what happens in the future already done?

@shankara I sense you were poking fun at the Calvinists but how different is their theology from the Eastern theory of karma? I found this website which is a polemic against Hinduism so I take it with a pillar of salt but there are some reasonable claims that Eastern religions have the exact same notion as the West. Now through a quick search other writers are saying, "no no no karma is completely different." I don't know but on the surface their theory of inevitable circumstances seems quite similar:

Predestination in Hinduism

As a loose generalization I'd say that the most faithful people hold the strongest feeling that everything is controlled by God, which is a blessed way to see life. I think for a Christian and Muslim it's essential to be familiar with the classical debates reconciling free will with predeterminism. The Christian wiki entry is informative and summarizes the thoughts of great minds like Augustine, John of Damascus, and Thomas Aquinas. The Mormons denied predestination but developed a similar concept referred to as foreordination:

Predestination

I'm learning how important the concept of Qadar (divine decree) is within Islam, as one aspect of Iman (the 6 articles of faith). Very interesting that the minority Shia are said to reject predestination, emphasizing the concept of bada (alteration of divine will). Their argument is that the knowledge of God is absolute but the knowledge of humans and angels can be revised. In the words of one Shia- "God has not fixed a definite and final form for the course of human history". I'm positive there are better sources but to share what I'm looking at:

Predestination in Islam
 

phipps

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@Oceanic,

I want to start off by saying, yes, by the title, I am suggesting we may be living in a simulation- BUT one that is created by God himself. I have seen many Bible verses suggesting we're just acting as he wants us to because everything is simply a story- a meaningful story. So in other words, if we have free will, it's just slight. Our outcomes have already been determined.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

I don't think many people have had this thought pop up in their mind: "If God says he created good, then how would good have the choice to be evil if it was meant to be good?"

Let's put this into perspective: If I make a square cake, it would not have the option to suddenly form into cupcakes.
Well the Bible is clear in all its teachings that we have free will. Since the Bible is God's message to us its also very clear that we are not living in a simulation and there is definitely no script. The square cake is not a living breathing soul and has no free will.

I don't think as mere mortals and created beings who are limited in our knowledge on everything, we can understand how evil came to be. But the Bible is clear that God did not create it.

All of God's intelligent beings (including angels and mankind) were created free to choose between obedience or disobedience to God's principles of truth, righteousness, and love. Lucifer (meaning "light-bearer" and Satan's heavenly name), one of the most exalted cherubim, misused his freedom of choice (Deuteronomy 30:19; Galatians 6:7-8). This was the beginning of the great rebellion in heaven. Lucifer became Satan (meaning "adversary"). He set aside the law of God through self-exaltation, deception, lying, and murder (Ezekiel 28:13-15, 17; Isaiah 14:12-14; Revelation 12:7, 8; John 8:44, 1 John 3:15).

We are just a story, everyone, including angels and demons, have been created with a script.
Why does God have a specific chosen people?
I'm not sure what you mean by a chosen people. Do you mean the Jews or a mixture of Jews and Gentiles?

Biblically God chose Israel for a purpose and that purpose was to spread the Gospel to the whole world. God always planned that all people He created would reconcile back with Him. He did not choose Israel because they were more special than others. The Israelites and later the Jews forgot this purpose and became proud. They became an exclusive people and did not let anyone in. They looked down on anyone who wasn't them. When Jesus came to earth He told them that this plan was still going to continue. In the New Covenant, as was supposed to be in the Old Covenant anyone who joined Israel becomes/became a Jew. Paul and other apostles made it clear that Gentiles who join Israel are Jews and are God's people. God's people are those who choose to submit and follow Jesus Christ by choice because they have free will. Being part of Israel is not about genealogy, its about accepting Jesus as one's personal Saviour and doing His will. The Bible teaches plainly that “in Christ” the division between Jew and Gentile has been done away with. Paul wrote in Romans 10:11-13, "For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Why did God purposely harden Pharaoh's heart?
Did God did harden Pharaoh's heart or did Pharaoh harden his own heart? Lets compare what some passages say in the Bible.

Exodus 4:21 says, "And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

Exodus 9:12, "But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses."

Exodus 8:15, "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said."


Pharaoh hardened his own heart against God. God kept asking Pharaoh through Moses to let His people go, He gave Pharaoh signs, worked miracles in his court, and then sent the first nine plagues. And Pharaoh still refused! Pharaoh said: “Who is the Lord, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the Lord, nor will I let Israel go” (Exodus 5:2). When God sent out the plagues, Pharaoh and other pagan Egyptians were challenged in their beliefs. God proved to him and them that He is the real and true God and more powerful than their man-made gods. But with each plague Pharaoh's heart became more hardened. Just as exercise strengthens muscles, repeated rejection of truth strengthens rebellion.

This has happened all throughout man's history. During the flood for example, Noah preached for 120 years the judgement of the flood for sinners and that they should turn to God and repent. He preached while building the Ark. Most people rejected His message. Only his family responded and repented. When the flood did happen those who responded and repented were saved. Did God purposefully harden the hearts of the majority who rejected His message through Noah for all those years? No! Their hearts were hardened by choice. God knew they would but He did not will it to happen. God's foreknowledge does not take away our free will.

So God knew Pharaoh would harden his heart but it was entirely Pharaoh's choice to do so. Pharaoh had plenty of obvious warnings from God, and he chose to ignore every one of them. If he'd backed down after the first plague, the other nine wouldn't have been necessary. Instead, he hardened his own heart even more against God.

Why do the Seraph angels continue to say "Holy Holy Holy" without being able to stop, and have no other purpose but to praise God?
That was the purpose they were created for and they are happy and fulfilled doing it. They would have had a choice to reject what they were created for just as Satan and 1/3 of all the evil angels did and who were eventually thrown out of heaven for rebelling against God.

Why did God say he would put a spirit of anger into the world leaders so they can destroy Babylon?
Where did God say He would put anger into the world leaders? Can you show actual Scripture from the Bible?

Simple. Because he is in control; he is the author writing what he wants to happen.
You're right God is always in control but not of our wills. He could have chosen to control our wills from the get go when He created intelligent beings starting with the angels but that would make us all puppets incapable of thinking on our own and making our own decisions. You are proving that God gave you a choice by posting this thread with these beliefs and opinions. You would not be able to think this let alone be able to post it because God would not allow anyone to say anything negative about Him if He was controlling our wills. God is love, and love does not force. He wants us to come to Him willingly not from fear. He has told us the consequences of what will happen when we choose Him or when we choose Satan. Its up to us who we choose.

There is also the issue of sin. What you're saying is that God is the minister if sin, not Satan. Satan is just a pawn after all and is only doing what he was created to do which is for the benefit of the few chosen ones. He had no say or choice in any of his actions. Why would a loving God create this world, allow sin and all its devastation through the ages take hold of this world the way it has? Does God enjoy seeing people suffer and die? Why would He choose to create people to suffer, to cause them to sin and then cause them to be lost and eventually burned and destroyed in hell? Wouldn't that make God evil and much worse than Satan? That will make the Bible which is God's Word a lie because it says God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

God also said, "As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’ " (Ezekiel 33:11). According to you God created most people to be sinners, lost and destroyed so He was lying when He said He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. The whole Bible is one lie after another based on your logic.

There is also Jesus' sacrifice for our sins. Did He not die in our stead so we may not perish but have everlasting life should we choose to submit and follow Him? Is the Bible lying when it says:

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

“In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 4:9-10).

“As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name” (John 1:12).

And the only ones getting a happy ending
are his chosen ones whom, by the way, HE chooses. I have heard Christians say, "It's your choice if you want to go to heaven or not!" No it's not. It's God's choice. Whoever is fortunate enough will be chosen and if they're chosen that means they have played the role of being a faithful servant because that's what their character was created to do. One cannot send themselves to hell or heaven, did you forget we are mere fragile human beings who can easily get killed by simple weather conditions?
It is our choice if we want to go to heaven. When we submit to God, we are partners with Him and choose to let Him walk by our side in our daily lives. We open our hearts to Him and let Him in by choice. Then He begins the process of destroying our old sinful selves and changing us into a new spiritual creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). We begin to experience the glorious freedom from guilt and condemnation, and the old life of sin becomes repulsive to us.

So are you saying this is all for entertainment purposes?" You ask? In a way, yes, but that is not the main answer. The main answer is so it can benefit the chosen people of God. God purposely puts obstacles, who are demons and/or life struggles in the way so his chosen ones can learn and grow from these things. Then when all is said and done, evil will forever be destroyed and God's chosen ones get to experience peace for eternity. This world was intended for his chosen people anyway- God even says he created the world for them. If this is the case, this means lucifer was meant to be evil, demons were purposely created as well, and this all goes back to God saying he created both good and evil.
This statement is false and makes God evil as I said before. It would mean God is having fun and does not care about the suffering of billions of people since the beginning and all for the few who are chosen? That would make God worse than Satan who He created as I posted above. It would mean God purposefully created Satan, created sin, started the rebellion in heaven in which Satan managed to lie and manipulate a third of all the angels in heaven and then get thrown out and came o this earth and wreaked havoc for thousands of years until Jesus comes back the second time. It means that God ultimately caused/causes sinners to be lost and eventually destroyed in hell.

Where in the Bible does it say God created the world for the chosen people? Can I see actual scripture to prove that?

Again where in the Bible does it say God created good and evil? Please show actual scripture. What I do know is that God is not responsible for the entrance of sin in heaven and on earth.

This entire earth as we know it is just a battleground for a chosen people, which they will succeed in the end, then this world will be destroyed and God will create another world for them to dwell on for all of eternity. This also suggests everyone else will be damned. Everyone else was also created, just as lucifer and his demons, to bring tribulation to the chosen ones.
Not according to God's Word. A loving God DID NOT and WOULD NOT create Satan and most people (most people are going to hell according to the Bible) to sin, suffer and be destroyed in hell eventually just "to bring tribulation to the chosen ones." He would not send His Son to die the most painful death on the cross to satisfy the death penalty for only a chosen few. That would be beyond evil. The Bible says Jesus died for ALL not a chosen few (2 Corinthians 5:15, 1 John 2:2).

We know the world persecutes God's people, that is why they will be erased from existence in the end.
They are merely pawns.
God's people have always been persecuted because of the devil. Satan hates God's people (those who've chosen by their own free will to submit and follow God) because he hates God. Because they chose God over him. The Bible tells us Satan wants to be worshipped like God. The Bible says of Satan, “You have said in your heart: … ‘I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; … I will be like the Most High’ ” (Isaiah 14:13-14). Satan is proud and jealous of God. He wants to be like God but he can't be because he is a created being. He also knows his fate. It is hell and losing his life eternally. Jesus said hell was only meant for Satan and his evil angels (Matthew 25:41) but unfortunately many people will go to hell because they chose not to submit to God. They chose Satan instead. Satan wants as many people as possible to lose their lives eternally because he knows that will hurt God very much because He loves all (not some) the people He created very much. The Bible warns us, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Peter 5:8). Why would God warn anyone to be sober and vigilant if He already knows the chosen who are going to be saved anyway? No matter what Satan did or didn't do they are still going to be saved, they still win.

No one with free will is a pawn. God did not create pawns either.

But either way, God has us all in checkmate. So what say you?
He does not have us in checkmate and that would suggest that God is evil, more evil than Satan because He created all beings in this earth. It means He is in heaven watching people being murdered, starving children and adults, abuse, r*pe, paedophilia, people dying from illness, natural disasters etc and allowing most of mankind to suffer in untold ways just to "puts obstacles, who are demons and/or life struggles in the way so his chosen ones can learn and grow from these things"? That is beyond disgusting and a horrible thing to say about a loving God who created us out of love and wants to save all of us.

I forgot to mention, this is just how I personally see it; an opinion if you will. You need not heed my words.
This all sounds like the Predestination teaching (also called “unconditional grace” or “predestination”) which basically states that God has chosen some people to be saved and the others to be lost. Man's choice have no impact in God's decision. A key passage used to support this view is found in Paul’s writings in Romans 8:29-30, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Bible passages can be used to support the concept that God knows all things past, present, and future. “All things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13). Bible prophecy affirms that God knows the future, but future events do not happen because God “foreknew” them; rather, they are known by God because they will take place. Moreover, because God knows something will happen does not mean He wills it to happen.

Did God predestinate that only some would be saved? Paul writes elsewhere that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4). If only some are predestined to be saved, why would Jesus offer salvation to all? Christ said, in the closing chapter of the Bible, Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17).

God has an all-knowing perspective. He knows whether we are going to be saved or lost, but this knowledge does not take away our free choice. We know this because of the many Scripture passages that demonstrate our freedom to choose. Joshua told Israel to “choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve” (Joshua 24:15). The story of the fall of mankind shows the high value (and high price) that God gave to Adam and Eve when He let them choose whether to obey or disobey Him.
 
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Tidal

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I believe his sacrifice was only intended for the chosen ones, who are....Israelites..

You might not have noticed, but the Israelites murdered God's Son and still hate him to this day, so if they think they're going to make it through the pearlies they've got another think coming..:)-

 

Cintra

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@Maes17

The greasing didn't work. The Tidal bot is still repeating out of context comments that it has made before.

Also I notice it has not updated its video feed for 10 years.

A decade can take a toll on an old bot like this.
I think we need to jam the tip of a pen into its reset hole.
 
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