...Demise of America - Obadiah...?...

[saki]

AMERICA’S DEMISE HAS COME AND IT WAS ALL PROPHESIED BY OBADIAH, RABBI REVEALS
The rabbi sees America as the modern-day Edom reminding his viewers that the “phenomena that the last manifestation of Edom will self-destruct have already been extensively developed by the great Jewish mystics centuries ago.”
He adds that this was also predicted by the prophet Obadiah.

...more at link....

America's demise has come and it was all prophesied by Obadiah, Rabbi reveals

Rabbi Weisberg quoted the Babylonian Talmud who predicts this very sequence of events right before the Messiah's arrival:

www.israel365news.com

 

[phipps]

I have read the link you posted and I'm afraid the Rabbi was wrong. America's demise is prophesied in the book of Revelation (specifically in chapter 13 of Revelation) not in Obadiah or Daniel 7.

Sometimes in Bible prophecy, there are two or more applications to them. The only similarity I see with Obadiah's vision in chapter 1 with end time prophecy is that like Edom, anyone who attacks God's people and rejoices when they are suffering and have fallen will lose in the end. That could be any kingdom or country that went/goes against God's people historically and in the future. According to Revelation 13 America will do exactly that but Edom does not represent specifically America.

The fourth beast of Daniel 7 represents Rome not America nor was it about Edom. The fourth kingdom existed way before America was ever even thought of.

In Daniel 2, Daniel tells king Nebuchadnezzar his dream and interprets it. In the dream there is a statue made of different metals. The head is made of gold which Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar represents his kingdom of Babylon. Then the breast and arms are made of silver and this represents the Medes and Persians. The belly and thighs are made of brass and they represent Greece. The legs of iron represent Rome. The feet and toes are a mixture of clay and iron. Iron is still mixed in there which means there is a bit of Rome in there. The Bible says, "As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay" (Daniel 2:43). These represent divided kingdoms till the end of time. They will not have peace. We are living in this period of time.

The book of Daniel goes on to give us more information on these kingdoms using different language and symbolism to describe them and more until the end of the world. America is not mentioned in the book of Daniel. We get to find out about it specifically in the book of Revelation.

Daniel 7 talks about four beasts. So the language and symbolism has changed from metals to beasts. Beasts in biblical prophecy represent kingdoms, governments and political powers. The same language/symbolism is used in the book of Revelation. For example Revelation 13 talks about "The Beast from the Sea" and "The Beast from the Earth". These beasts are political powers and governments. So the book of Revelation is an extension of the book of Daniel and also the entire Old Testament.

Daniel 7 gives us more information on the four kingdoms in Daniel 2. In Daniel 7:23 the angel says: “The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth...".

Daniel 7:4 says, "The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it." Babylon is represented by a “lion.” The Bible uses the lion to represent it in other Bible scripture too such as in Jeremiah 4:7; 50:43-44. Jeremiah 50:17, "Israel is like scattered sheep; The lions have driven him away. First the king of Assyria devoured him; Now at last this Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has broken his bones.” Just as gold is supreme among the metals so the “lion” is king among beasts and the “eagle” is king of the birds. Babylon’s rise from a basal state of Assyria to ruler of the known world was breathtakingly swift. In the 21 years after Babylon gained its independence from Assyria, it had conquered the surrounding nations, and become the most powerful empire in the region; thus the “eagle’s wings” portray speed. Interestingly Babylon used the lion as it symbol too.

Later, Babylon ceased to expand and conquer, represented by the wings being “plucked” off. After the death of Nebuchadnezzar the succeeding kings of Babylon chose to ignore God’s law and mock him. Then Babylon lost its lion-like nobility. It was given a “man’s heart” and made to stand upon its “feet as a man.”

Daniel 7:5 says, "And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!" This next kingdom, corresponding to the chest and arms of silver from the image of Daniel 2, is Medo-Persia. Persia was dominant over Media; which is represented by the “bear” “raised up on one side” The “three ribs” in the bear’s mouth represent the major kingdoms which Medo-Persia conquered—Babylon, Lydia, and Egypt. At the height of its power this empire conquered more than six times as much land as had its predecessor Babylon. It did “devour much flesh.”

Daniel 7:6 says, "After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it." Medo-Persia was defeated by Greece, represented as a “leopard” with “four heads” and “four wings.” The “four wings” represent unprecedented swiftness. The conquests of Greece under Alexander the Great were more rapid than even those of Babylon. In just three short years, he conquered the entire Persian Empire. The leopard is more agile and swift than a lion or bear, yet more frail. Alexander died at the age of thirty-two. His four strongest generals (Cassander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy, and Seleucas), divided the kingdom amongst themselves, symbolized by the leopard’s “four heads.” Heads in biblical prophecy represent rulers, governments and major powers.

Daniel 7:7 says, "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns." The previous kingdoms or empires were represented by some of the most ferocious animals of prey; but this “beast” is represented by a frightful monster that has no name. And it comes directly after the third kingdom of Greece. This is a fitting figure of the Roman Empire which dominated the world with its iron legions. The “iron teeth” of this monster give it a direct parallel to the iron legs on the statue in Daniel 2:40 which says, "And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others."

It was Rome that was in power when Jesus lived on earth, and it was the Roman governor, Pilate, who sent Him to the cross, where he died for the sins of all mankind. The “ten horns,” like the leopard’s “four heads,” show a splintering of the kingdom into multiple parts.

So there is no way that America can be the fourth kingdom as the Rabbi said. It does not go hand in hand with biblical teaching.

 

[phipps]

...continued from my above post.

Daniel 8 again changes the language ans symbolism that represents the kingdoms. This chapter is a repeat of chapter 7 with more information and emphasis on the judgment scene.

Daniel 8:3-4 says, "Then I lifted my eyes and saw, and there, standing beside the river, was a ram which had two horns, and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last. I saw the ram pushing westward, northward, and southward, so that no animal could withstand him; nor was there any that could deliver from his hand, but he did according to his will and became great."

Verse 20 identifies this “ram” as Medo-Persia. "The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia." The “two horns” represent the two parts of the empire with the Persians, the younger of the two nations, becoming dominant over the Medes.

Daniel 8:5-8 says, "And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. Then he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing beside the river, and ran at him with furious power. And I saw him confronting the ram; he was moved with rage against him, attacked the ram, and broke his two horns. There was no power in the ram to withstand him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled him; and there was no one that could deliver the ram from his hand. Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven."

Verses 21 and 22 identify the “goat” as Greece. "And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power." The “notable horn between his eyes” was clearly Alexander the Great, who came from the west and defeated the armies of Persia. Alexander died without an heir at the height of his power. His generals fought each other until there were only four left, represented by the “four horns.”

Daniel 8:9-12 says, "And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered." We know from Daniel 2 and 7 and from history that the power which followed Greece was Rome. Also in chapters 2 and 7 its shown that Rome has two phases (although I didn't post on that in detail). Pagan Rome and divided Rome. Chapter 7 shows that the religious power of papal Rome (the little horn) rose to dominate the divided empire.

This vision represents power. This fourth beast never has an animal that can represent it in either chapter 7 or 8. The physical actions of pagan Rome against God’s people are also symbolic of papal persecution of God’s people and their true worship. This is one of the reasons we know that true Christians from all over the world are what represent Israel in the New Covenant not just Jews. Papal Rome persecuted Christians mostly.

Daniel 8:23-25 says of Rome, "And in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness, A king shall arise, Having fierce features, Who understands sinister schemes. His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully, And shall prosper and thrive; He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people. “Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means."

This power, represented here in Daniel 8 is a blending of pagan and papal Rome, and has throughout the course of its history fulfilled the prophecies in this chapter and others especially both in the books of Daniel and Revelation. The "little horn" representing Rome is further confirmed by the fact that Rome fulfilled precisely the other specifications of Daniel 8. For example, Rome "stamped" upon the people of God (Daniel 8:10), relentlessly persecuting them throughout the centuries—in pagan times through tyrants, such as Nero, Domitian, and Diocletian, and just as tragically under the succeeding papal phase. Moreover, pagan Rome stood up against the Prince of princes (verse 25), who is Christ for it was a Roman governor who condemned Jesus, and Roman soldiers who nailed Him to the cross, pierced His side, and placed a Roman seal on His tomb.

The power broken “without hand” in verse 25, is almost the same expression in Daniel 2 talking about the rock cut out without hands that destroys the statue of Daniel 2 at its feet.. It represents None other than Jesus Christ Himself.

The fourth kingdom is not America biblically or historically.

 

[phipps]

@saki I feel like I've taken over your thread but I feel that I've got to post about Revelation 13 where America is talked about although not mentioned in name.

In Revelation 13 there are two beasts (a beast in Bible prophecy symbolises kingdom, government, political power, Daniel 7:17, 23 ). Its important we understand who the first beast represents before we talk about the second beast. The language and symbology used are familiar since they are also used on the book of Daniel especially chapter 7 and in other parts of the Bible.

Revelation 13:1-10, the Beast from the sea:

Verse 1, "Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name."

The first beast arose out of the sea. Revelation 17:15 tells us that the sea represents or symbolises “peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.” Therefore the first beast arose from nations (inhabited territory). Also this first beast has ten horns, just like the terrible fourth beast in Daniel 7:7. Both of these beasts represent Rome. The fourth kingdom.

Verse 2, "Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority."

These symbols represent the four kingdoms or empires as found in the book of Daniel 7 as posted above. The leopard symbolised Greece, the Bear symbolised Medo-Persia, the lion symbolised Babylon in the book of Daniel.

The Bible’s language and symbology are not a coincidence. This beast contains features of all the four powers in Daniel 7. It also has power and authority from the dragon which biblically is symbolised by Satan or the agencies he works through. Pagan Rome is the agency that gave this beast its power, throne and authority. Its none other than papal Rome.

Verse 3, "And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast."

The beast seemed to be fatally wounded. This was the capture of the Pope in 1798 by one of Napoleon's generals. It was exactly 1260 (I'll say more about this time period below) years after Justinian’s decree established the papacy as the supreme Christian power in 538 AD. The Pope died in a French prison and it seemed as though that was the end of the papacy and it had lost its political power. But the above verse says the wound was healed.

In 1929, Prime Minister Benito Mussolini and Cardinal Pietro Gasparri signed an accord whereby the Pope had to pledge his own political party’s support to Mussolini in exchange for the return of his papal seat and power. This monumental event was recorded in the San Francisco Chronicle with the heading "Mussolini and Gasparri sign Historic Roman Pact." Even at that point, people understood the significance of what had happened. From 1929 onward, the political status of the Vatican was thus reinstated and the wound could heal fully.

The Beast, or Papacy, claims to be the representative of Christ. It demands the world’s obedience and also experienced a counterfeit death and resurrection. At the end of time, the power of the resurrected papacy will be so great that no one would venture to make war against it. The deadly wound will be completely healed.

Verse 4, "So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

The dragon is Satan who through Pagan Rome gave the papacy its power, seat and great authority.

Verses 5, 6, 7, "And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation."

This period is the same as the one in Daniel 7:25 and again that is no coincidence. The verse says, "He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time."

It really depends on the Bible version one reads (I mainly use NKJV) which uses 42 months and time and times and half a time interchangeably. Other Bible versions use 1260 days (a day in prophecy symbolises a year, Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34. So 1260 days is 1260 years), 31/2 years which adds up to 42 months or 1260 days which is 1260 years.

Whenever this time period is mentioned in the Bible it is the same time period that the little horn power had authority and persecuted the saints in Daniel 7:25 and the first beast of Revelation 13 blasphemed God and made war with the saints and overcame them. The little horn of Daniel 7 and the beast of Revelation 13 are the same power. It is the papacy.

Verses 8, 9, "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If anyone has an ear, let him hear."

In the last days, nearly the whole world, those “whose names are not written in the book of life,” will “worship” this beast. The day is coming soon when the majority of humankind will obey the authority of the papacy above the commands of God, and will thus worship the beast. Only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s “Book of Life” will stay true to God. They will be the minority. This book records the names of all the saved from every generation of Earth’s history (Revelation 20:12, 15).

Verse 10, "He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

This prediction was fulfilled when the Pope was taken into captivity and this persecuting power received its deadly wound. The papacy had killed and imprisoned so many people (according to historians between 50-100 million people), many of whom were Christians who would not worship God according to their precepts. He who had killed and imprisoned so many was himself to die in prison. This is the deadly wound of verse 3. Napoleon had hoped to bring the papacy to an end.

This is a controversial subject but its the truth. Many people including Christians don't think is as powerful but it is. Also its power has increased and keeps on increasing over time. But God will destroy it at the end.

It always amazes me how the Bible harmonises and how nothing written in It is a coincidence.

 

[AspiringSoul]

I have read the link you posted and I'm afraid the Rabbi was wrong. America's demise is prophesied in the book of Revelation (specifically in chapter 13 of Revelation) not in Obadiah or Daniel 7.

Sometimes in Bible prophecy, there are two or more applications to them. The only similarity I see with Obadiah's vision in chapter 1 with end time prophecy is that like Edom, anyone who attacks God's people and rejoices when they are suffering and have fallen will lose in the end. That could be any kingdom or country that went/goes against God's people historically and in the future. According to Revelation 13 America will do exactly that but Edom does not represent specifically America.

The fourth beast of Daniel 7 represents Rome not America nor was it about Edom. The fourth kingdom existed way before America was ever even thought of.

In Daniel 2, Daniel tells king Nebuchadnezzar his dream and interprets it. In the dream there is a statue made of different metals. The head is made of gold which Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar represents his kingdom of Babylon. Then the breast and arms are made of silver and this represents the Medes and Persians. The belly and thighs are made of brass and they represent Greece. The legs of iron represent Rome. The feet and toes are a mixture of clay and iron. Iron is still mixed in there which means there is a bit of Rome in there. The Bible says, "As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay" (Daniel 2:43). These represent divided kingdoms till the end of time. They will not have peace. We are living in this period of time.

The book of Daniel goes on to give us more information on these kingdoms using different language and symbolism to describe them and more until the end of the world. America is not mentioned in the book of Daniel. We get to find out about it specifically in the book of Revelation.

Daniel 7 talks about four beasts. So the language and symbolism has changed from metals to beasts. Beasts in biblical prophecy represent kingdoms, governments and political powers. The same language/symbolism is used in the book of Revelation. For example Revelation 13 talks about "The Beast from the Sea" and "The Beast from the Earth". These beasts are political powers and governments. So the book of Revelation is an extension of the book of Daniel and also the entire Old Testament.

Daniel 7 gives us more information on the four kingdoms in Daniel 2. In Daniel 7:23 the angel says: “The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth...".

Daniel 7:4 says, "The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it." Babylon is represented by a “lion.” The Bible uses the lion to represent it in other Bible scripture too such as in Jeremiah 4:7; 50:43-44. Jeremiah 50:17, "Israel is like scattered sheep; The lions have driven him away. First the king of Assyria devoured him; Now at last this Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has broken his bones.” Just as gold is supreme among the metals so the “lion” is king among beasts and the “eagle” is king of the birds. Babylon’s rise from a basal state of Assyria to ruler of the known world was breathtakingly swift. In the 21 years after Babylon gained its independence from Assyria, it had conquered the surrounding nations, and become the most powerful empire in the region; thus the “eagle’s wings” portray speed. Interestingly Babylon used the lion as it symbol too.

Later, Babylon ceased to expand and conquer, represented by the wings being “plucked” off. After the death of Nebuchadnezzar the succeeding kings of Babylon chose to ignore God’s law and mock him. Then Babylon lost its lion-like nobility. It was given a “man’s heart” and made to stand upon its “feet as a man.”

Daniel 7:5 says, "And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!" This next kingdom, corresponding to the chest and arms of silver from the image of Daniel 2, is Medo-Persia. Persia was dominant over Media; which is represented by the “bear” “raised up on one side” The “three ribs” in the bear’s mouth represent the major kingdoms which Medo-Persia conquered—Babylon, Lydia, and Egypt. At the height of its power this empire conquered more than six times as much land as had its predecessor Babylon. It did “devour much flesh.”

Daniel 7:6 says, "After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it." Medo-Persia was defeated by Greece, represented as a “leopard” with “four heads” and “four wings.” The “four wings” represent unprecedented swiftness. The conquests of Greece under Alexander the Great were more rapid than even those of Babylon. In just three short years, he conquered the entire Persian Empire. The leopard is more agile and swift than a lion or bear, yet more frail. Alexander died at the age of thirty-two. His four strongest generals (Cassander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy, and Seleucas), divided the kingdom amongst themselves, symbolized by the leopard’s “four heads.” Heads in biblical prophecy represent rulers, governments and major powers.

Daniel 7:7 says, "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns." The previous kingdoms or empires were represented by some of the most ferocious animals of prey; but this “beast” is represented by a frightful monster that has no name. And it comes directly after the third kingdom of Greece. This is a fitting figure of the Roman Empire which dominated the world with its iron legions. The “iron teeth” of this monster give it a direct parallel to the iron legs on the statue in Daniel 2:40 which says, "And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others."

It was Rome that was in power when Jesus lived on earth, and it was the Roman governor, Pilate, who sent Him to the cross, where he died for the sins of all mankind. The “ten horns,” like the leopard’s “four heads,” show a splintering of the kingdom into multiple parts.

So there is no way that America can be the fourth kingdom as the Rabbi said. It does not go hand in hand with biblical teaching.

Correct, Rome was the system
However in Daniel 2 it also goes from the 'legs of iron' (rome), to the 'feet of iron and clay'.
Jesus smashes the feet of the image, so it's fair to say it would still exist in that time.

Islamic prophecy also talks of end times Rome. I do believe it's the same reference point told differently.

in Revelation 6, where the prophecy really begins, it talks of the rider of the White horse going conquering. This was the first emergence of the end times beast. The european colonial nations were all colonies of Rome, hence they are rome.
The second horseman represents death, this makes perfect sense because the consequence of colonialism was 2 world wars followed by revolutions inc the bolshevik revolution and holocoast amongst many other massacres all over.
The THIRD horseman is fascinating. It says 'do not harm the oil and wine'. Oil and wine are symbolic of the jewish nation.
What do we have? the creation of Israel which is protected by the BEAST system.
'the whore sitting on the beast', the whore of babylon as per the Jeremiah 2/3, zechariah 5, habakkuk 2 references/connections. This is the world we live in today with the Beast system occupied by a jewish cabal. No one can ever deny this fact.

As for any 'destruction' that's foretold, it is of THE WHORE OF BABYLON, so i don't know why the flipping Rabbi is getting happy.

 

[KoncreteMind]

The fourth kingdom is not America biblically or historically.

Western Europe (and by connection America)is the fourth kingdom. They used to call themselves Roman:

Charles V: (24 February 1500 – 21 September 1558) was Holy Roman Emperor and Archduke of Austria from 1519 to 1556, King of Spain (Castile and Aragon) from 1516 to 1556, and Lord of the Netherlands as titular Duke of Burgundy from 1506 to 1555.

 

[phipps]

Western Europe (and by connection America)is the fourth kingdom. They used to call themselves Roman:

Charles V: (24 February 1500 – 21 September 1558) was Holy Roman Emperor and Archduke of Austria from 1519 to 1556, King of Spain (Castile and Aragon) from 1516 to 1556, and Lord of the Netherlands as titular Duke of Burgundy from 1506 to 1555.

The fourth kingdom that the Rabbi spoke of according to the link the op provided, comes from the book of Daniel chapter 7 that he called Edom as well, is not America, its Rome. The four main kingdoms written of in the book of Daniel are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. The little horn power is the papacy that came out of pagan Rome. The papacy is also the first beast of Revelation 13 (all the descriptions point only to the papacy) but it has other symbols in other parts of Revelation. There is no way America existed as the fourth kingdom after Greece according to the book of Daniel.

What I posted is based on the Bible and history. Can you prove to me biblically that America is the fourth kingdom?

 

[phipps]

The Second Beast, the Beast from the earth.

Revelation 13:11-17:

Verse 11, "Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon."

Unlike the first beast which comes out of the sea (which means it was in a populated area because the sea in prophecy symbolises multitudes, nations and tongues), this beast comes out of the earth. What does coming out the earth mean in prophecy? It is the opposite of the sea. This beast comes out of an unpopulated area. An area that was previously not inhabited by great nations, multitudes, peoples, and tongues.

It also has two horns like a lamb but speaks as a dragon. The Bible says in John 1:29, "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" Jesus is the Lamb of God and Satan is the dragon. That means this power at first seems like a lamb but will at last speak with Satan's voice. What power seemed to be Christian, rising from a land that was never conquered by great nations near the end of the 18th century? It can only be America. Only America began like this during this period, and had a government without a king and a church without a pope (Protestantism).

What are its lamb like features? The Constitution, which keeps/kept the church and state apart. Americans had/have civil and religious liberty. Although not for long.

"Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States..." US Constitution Amendment 1 and Article 6.

Lamb-like horns denote an innocent, young, non-oppressive, peace-loving, and spiritual nation. But something changed because it speaks as a dragon too. Being that the dragon is Satan, who works through various earthly agencies and powers to establish his own kingdom and to crush God’s church by persecuting and destroying God’s people, its obvious America under the influence of Satan will, in the end time, force people to worship contrary to conscience or be punished. It will go against its own constitution.

Verse 12, "And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed."

America will become a persecuting power that will force people to go against their conscience, as did papal Rome in the middle ages as posted above in the first half of Revelation chapter 13.

America will cause (which means command or force) people to worship the first beast. This will not be about worshipping the first beast directly. The issue will be about worship. Who will we worship and obey? Will it be Christ, our Creator and Redeemer, or the antichrist? Will we choose God's precepts over the papacy's? Many Christians had to make that choice in the dark ages and again it will become an issue of contention in the end times. Every soul on earth will finally worship one or the other. Those who refuse to do what the government commands them to will be considered divisive, stubborn, radical, and unpatriotic. I think we are seeing the beginnings of this.

Verses 13, 14, "He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived."

Signs, wonders and miracles, like fire from heaven will be used to deceive people into worshipping the image of the beast. The papacy always uses miracles to prove its authority and so will America.

America will pass laws requiring worship and force people to either obey them or face death. This action is a copy or “image”of the church-state form of government the papacy ruled with at the height of her power during the Middle Ages, when millions were slain for their faith. The United States will combine civil government and apostate Protestantism (most protestantism is not biblical and is false) in a “marriage” that will support the papacy. It will then influence all the nations of the world to follow her example. Thus, the papacy will gain worldwide support.

Verse 15, "He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed."

An image is something that has the attributes of the original. The first beast of Revelation 13 (the papacy) was a power that utilized state resources in order to enforce its doctrines, even when these doctrines were contrary to the Word of God.

The United States, will next influence the nations of the world to impose a death sentence upon all who refuse to worship the beast or his image. Another name for this worldwide coalition is “Babylon the Great.” This worldwide alliance will, in the name of Christ, substitute the policeman’s power for the Holy Spirit’s gentle persuasion—and it will force worship. In becoming like Rome, by forming a union between church and state, and using the power of the state to enforce religious laws, the United States will become an image of the Beast.

All the former beasts used the threat of death to enforce false worship. Nebuchadnezzar threatened death in a furnace, Darius of Medo-Persia threatened death in a lion's den. The Greeks under Antiochus Epiphanes killed those who refused to worship the idol set up in God's temple. Imperial Rome burned Christians or threw them to the lions. Papal Rome set up the inquisition (which still exists today under another name), and tens of millions died refusing to obey the will of the papacy. The near absence of religious persecution (apart from the Jews) in the last two centuries may lull us into a sense false security. But nothing has changed: yes, the same threat will be used again.

Verse 16, "He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads"

Christians over centuries have wondered what this mark in the forehead and right hand might mean. Some wondered about bar codes, invisible laser tattoos, microchips etc. The interesting thing is in Revelation 7:1-3, God's people are sealed in their foreheads but not in the right hand. The forehead represents the mind, while the right hand represents action. So while God's people must be settled into the truth intellectually and spiritually, Satan merely requires people to submit. It doesn't matter to Him whether it comes from conviction or from fear. He will accept the mark in either the forehead or the right hand.

The mark of the beast will be the observance of a religious law, enforced by the United States and other governments around the world, endorsing the authority of the papacy. Those who receive the mark in their foreheads believe that it is necessary to regain God’s favour, while those marked in the hand obey only out of fear of death. This mark is Satan’s counterfeit of the seal God places in the forehead of His followers.

Verse 17, "and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

If you think about the effect of a ban on buying or selling for those who don't have the mark, you will see why nearly everyone will submit and obey the laws. Common things like food, water, power, shelter, clothing, means of transport and communication will be affected because most people have to buy them, especially in developed countries. If we are not willing to obey God's Word now when times are easy, we will certainly not be willing to obey Him then.

These times are going to be very difficult in the not so distant future. True Christians who are going to refuse to obey the papacy and America are going to have to depend solely on God. When they will be forbidden from buying or selling, they will need to rely on God's promises especially the ones about providing food, water and safety. God will take care of His people. He will supply them with all their needs.

Many Christians have been deceived into thinking that God will snatch them away into heaven before these things happen. So they are not preparing for that very difficult time. The Bible is clear that God's people will be right here on earth during the tribulation and they will be persecuted, they won't be able to buy and sell and there will be a death sentence because they will not be obedient to the law of Rome which is against God's law.

There will be many Christians who will lay down their lives in this final struggle just like Christians did in the middle ages when the papacy persecuted them. They would rather die than disobey God. Though despised and afflicted by evil men, their faithfulness will not be forgotten by heaven and God will honour them. For them a special blessing is promised, one of the seven blessings (or beatitudes) of the book of Revelation (Revelation 14:9-15).

The last verse of Revelation 13 is about the first beast not the second and it says, "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666" (Revelation 13:18). This verse says, “it is the number of a man." One of the pope’s titles is said to be Vicarius Filii Dei, which means “Vicar of the Son of God” in English. In Latin, the language of Catholicism, some of the letters double as numbers, and the numerical value of Vicarius Filii Dei adds up to 666, and a great many Bible scholars believe that this is how 666 is to be interpreted.

America is rapidly becoming a global policeman, getting involved in all parts of the world in the name of freedom and justice. With the fall of the Soviet Union there is no other power that has the resources to fill this role, and by its own admission, the United States is the only superpower left on Earth.

 

[saki]

@saki I feel like I've taken over your thread but I feel that I've got to post about Revelation 13 where America is talked about although not mentioned in name.

In Revelation 13 there are two beasts (a beast in Bible prophecy symbolises kingdom, government, political power, Daniel 7:17, 23 ). Its important we understand who the first beast represents before we talk about the second beast. The language and symbology used are familiar since they are also used on the book of Daniel especially chapter 7 and in other parts of the Bible.

Revelation 13:1-10, the Beast from the sea:

Verse 1, "Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name."

The first beast arose out of the sea. Revelation 17:15 tells us that the sea represents or symbolises “peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.” Therefore the first beast arose from nations (inhabited territory). Also this first beast has ten horns, just like the terrible fourth beast in Daniel 7:7. Both of these beasts represent Rome. The fourth kingdom.

Verse 2, "Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority."

These symbols represent the four kingdoms or empires as found in the book of Daniel 7 as posted above. The leopard symbolised Greece, the Bear symbolised Medo-Persia, the lion symbolised Babylon in the book of Daniel.

The Bible’s language and symbology are not a coincidence. This beast contains features of all the four powers in Daniel 7. It also has power and authority from the dragon which biblically is symbolised by Satan or the agencies he works through. Pagan Rome is the agency that gave this beast its power, throne and authority. Its none other than papal Rome.

Verse 3, "And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast."

The beast seemed to be fatally wounded. This was the capture of the Pope in 1798 by one of Napoleon's generals. It was exactly 1260 (I'll say more about this time period below) years after Justinian’s decree established the papacy as the supreme Christian power in 538 AD. The Pope died in a French prison and it seemed as though that was the end of the papacy and it had lost its political power. But the above verse says the wound was healed.

In 1929, Prime Minister Benito Mussolini and Cardinal Pietro Gasparri signed an accord whereby the Pope had to pledge his own political party’s support to Mussolini in exchange for the return of his papal seat and power. This monumental event was recorded in the San Francisco Chronicle with the heading "Mussolini and Gasparri sign Historic Roman Pact." Even at that point, people understood the significance of what had happened. From 1929 onward, the political status of the Vatican was thus reinstated and the wound could heal fully.

The Beast, or Papacy, claims to be the representative of Christ. It demands the world’s obedience and also experienced a counterfeit death and resurrection. At the end of time, the power of the resurrected papacy will be so great that no one would venture to make war against it. The deadly wound will be completely healed.

Verse 4, "So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

The dragon is Satan who through Pagan Rome gave the papacy its power, seat and great authority.

Verses 5, 6, 7, "And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation."

This period is the same as the one in Daniel 7:25 and again that is no coincidence. The verse says, "He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time."

It really depends on the Bible version one reads (I mainly use NKJV) which uses 42 months and time and times and half a time interchangeably. Other Bible versions use 1260 days (a day in prophecy symbolises a year, Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34. So 1260 days is 1260 years), 31/2 years which adds up to 42 months or 1260 days which is 1260 years.

Whenever this time period is mentioned in the Bible it is the same time period that the little horn power had authority and persecuted the saints in Daniel 7:25 and the first beast of Revelation 13 blasphemed God and made war with the saints and overcame them. The little horn of Daniel 7 and the beast of Revelation 13 are the same power. It is the papacy.

Verses 8, 9, "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If anyone has an ear, let him hear."

In the last days, nearly the whole world, those “whose names are not written in the book of life,” will “worship” this beast. The day is coming soon when the majority of humankind will obey the authority of the papacy above the commands of God, and will thus worship the beast. Only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s “Book of Life” will stay true to God. They will be the minority. This book records the names of all the saved from every generation of Earth’s history (Revelation 20:12, 15).

Verse 10, "He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

This prediction was fulfilled when the Pope was taken into captivity and this persecuting power received its deadly wound. The papacy had killed and imprisoned so many people (according to historians between 50-100 million people), many of whom were Christians who would not worship God according to their precepts. He who had killed and imprisoned so many was himself to die in prison. This is the deadly wound of verse 3. Napoleon had hoped to bring the papacy to an end.

This is a controversial subject but its the truth. Many people including Christians don't think is as powerful but it is. Also its power has increased and keeps on increasing over time. But God will destroy it at the end.

It always amazes me how the Bible harmonises and how nothing written in It is a coincidence.

....my goodness!.... please proceed to "take over my thread" with abandon, Phipps! ... ...
...I'm loving the quality and quantity of your amazing contributions!...
...wish I had one-tenth of the depth that you can so readily access...
...well done! ... and please continue with excellence and exuberance!...

 

[Maldarker]

AMERICA’S DEMISE HAS COME AND IT WAS ALL PROPHESIED BY OBADIAH, RABBI REVEALS
The rabbi sees America as the modern-day Edom reminding his viewers that the “phenomena that the last manifestation of Edom will self-destruct have already been extensively developed by the great Jewish mystics centuries ago.”
He adds that this was also predicted by the prophet Obadiah.

...more at link....

America's demise has come and it was all prophesied by Obadiah, Rabbi reveals

Rabbi Weisberg quoted the Babylonian Talmud who predicts this very sequence of events right before the Messiah's arrival:

www.israel365news.com

Sorry but that's wrong. Interesting but not correct.

 

[KoncreteMind]

What I posted is based on the Bible and history. Can you prove to me biblically that America is the fourth kingdom?

Simple question(s) to make you think.

Daniel 7
23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it

Who devoured the whole earth if not Western Europe? Rome didn’t ever devour or control the whole earth until the Catholics thru Western Europe did it. Also, why was a Western European(s) (King Charles V for example) king calling himself a ROMAN emperor? Have you heard of these 10 kingdoms?

1. Anglo-Saxons
2. Franks
3. Allemans
4. Burgundians
5. Visigoths
6. Suevi
7. Vandals
8. Heruli
9. Huns
10. Ostrogoths

Did you know that these 10 kingdoms took over original Rome and 3 of them died out like Daniel wrote would happen ? I’m sure you know that the pope already changed the laws (sabbath to Sunday), changed the times (Gregorian calendar), and spoke boastful things (representative of God on earth)?

History shows the things in Daniel as things that happened in the past.

 

[The Agrarian]

This needs to be said:

Anyone who quotes the Talmud is full of shit and teaching a doctrine from a Synagogue of Satan. Contemporary Judaism is based on explicitly rejecting the Christian message and is inherently linked with occultic practices like Kabbalah.

The Talmud was written by exiled Jewish Sanhedrin after getting BTFO by the Romans in 70 AD. It is an evil book.

 

[phipps]

Simple question(s) to make you think.

Daniel 7
23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it

Who devoured the whole earth if not Western Europe? Rome didn’t ever devour or control the whole earth until the Catholics thru Western Europe did it. Also, why was a Western European(s) (King Charles V for example) king calling himself a ROMAN emperor? Have you heard of these 10 kingdoms?

1. Anglo-Saxons
2. Franks
3. Allemans
4. Burgundians
5. Visigoths
6. Suevi
7. Vandals
8. Heruli
9. Huns
10. Ostrogoths

Did you know that these kingdoms took over original Rome and 3 of them died out like Daniel ? I’m sure you know that the pope already changed the laws (sabbath to Sunday), changed the times (Gregorian calendar), and spoke boastful things (representative of God in earth)?

History shows the things in Daniel as things that happened in the past.

Then you need to study more about the Roman Kingdom and how much territory they won at their height. Israel was part of their territory. It may not have had as much territory as Greece but it was still a very large territory. It was the most powerful empire on earth at its height of power.

Also biblical prophecy on kingdoms or empires and political powers and governments is about how it affects God's people. The kingdoms and powers spoken of in the book of Daniel affected the Israelites and Jews. Then in the latter part they affect true Christians (in the New Testament they are part of Israel and are Jews) until Jesus returns the second time.

Plus there is no way the book of Daniel skipped over Rome (a kingdom that was still in power in Jesus' time and was responsible for His crucifixion) to the USA.

The Bible gives more detail on Rome and the little horn power more than all the other three kingdoms combined. Because it did many abominable things against God and His people and you've mentioned some of them like changing the Sabbath day which was tampering with God's eternal law, it blasphemed God, persecuted God's people and changed many other things that are not biblical. I have a thread on Catholicism and how its more pagan than it is Christian.

Yes I've heard of the ten kingdoms, they are mentioned in Daniel 7 and it matches history too.

Daniel 7:7-8 says, "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words."

Horns in Bible prophecy symbolise a king, ruler, kingdom or government. Those ten kingdoms as you mentioned broke away from Rome according to history. They were the barbarian tribes that invaded the Roman empire’s territory and eventually became their own kingdoms within Europe. This was when the Roman empire was really on its knees. However, only seven of those 10 kingdoms developed into the countries of modern Western Europe, while three were “uprooted” and destroyed. These were the Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoths. Daniel 7:24 tells us, "The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings." The little horn subdued three horns. In other words, three of the first ten nations would disappear from history! Those are the three horns that were "plucked out by the roots."

As for the little horn:

- It arises from the fourth beast. The fourth beast represents Rome and it comes after Greece as shown in Daniel 8, so the little horn must be a Roman power. Only the papacy fits this point. The papacy came from and was given power by the Roman empire.

- The little horn arises among the ten horns. The ten horns are the divisions of Western Europe (as previously mentioned), so the little horn also must arise in Western Europe too.

- The little horn rises after the ten horns (Daniel 7:24). This matches with history too. According to historians, the ten horns were complete in the year 476 A.D., so this must mean that the little horn was to arise to power sometime after that year.

- The little horn had eyes like a man. In Bible Prophecy, eyes are symbolic of wisdom. In other words, this power was to depend on human wisdom.

- Daniel 7:25 says this power would govern for a time, times and half a time. This comes out to 42 months or 1260 days (see, Revelation 13:5-6; 12:6, 13-15). In Bible prophecy, literal days are symbolic of years, so this power was to govern for 1260 years.

Biblically especially in the book of Daniel, Rome is definitely the fourth kingdom from which the papacy comes from and it uprooted three kingdoms doing so. This is true historically too.

 

[recure]

The rabbi sees America as the modern-day Edom reminding his viewers that the “phenomena that the last manifestation of Edom will self-destruct have already been extensively developed by the great Jewish mystics centuries ago.”

Just more proof of the Jews' misanthropic hatred of Esau/Edom whom they personify as Christianity, Rome, Whites etc. and want to see destroyed.

 

[A Freeman]

AMERICA’S DEMISE HAS COME AND IT WAS ALL PROPHESIED BY OBADIAH, RABBI REVEALS
The rabbi sees America as the modern-day Edom reminding his viewers that the “phenomena that the last manifestation of Edom will self-destruct have already been extensively developed by the great Jewish mystics centuries ago.”
He adds that this was also predicted by the prophet Obadiah.

...more at link....

America's demise has come and it was all prophesied by Obadiah, Rabbi reveals

Rabbi Weisberg quoted the Babylonian Talmud who predicts this very sequence of events right before the Messiah's arrival:

www.israel365news.com

The irony is "the rabbi" is not only NOT a rabbi according to God and His Messiah/Christ (Matt. 23:8, Heb. 5:5-11), but is likely either a descendant of Japheth's grandson Ashkenaz (and thus not a Semite -- Gen. 10:1-3) or a descendant of Esau, i.e. an Edomite.

There have been three mass conversions to Talmudic Judaism over the past 2600 years, beginning in Babylon, which, unsurprisingly, is where Talmudic Judaism, and the man-made Babylonian Talmud it's based upon, originated. There was only a REMNANT of the two-tribed house of Judah (42,360 Souls – Ezra 2:64, Neh. 7:66) which returned from captivity in Babylon; the rest were converts of different or mixed lineages (Ezra 2:59, Ezra 9:2, Nem. 7:61).

The second mass conversion took place under John "the hammer" Hyrcanus, c. 110 BC., when he forced the Idumean-Edomites (the descendants of Esau – see Mal. 1:3) to convert to Talmudic Judaism, as recorded in "Antiquities of the Jews" by Flavius Josephus, and which is further rooted in CERTAIN Biblical prophecy.

And the third, for those who are interested, was the Khazars in the 8th century (A.D.), as chronicled by Arthur Koestler's exhaustive work “The Thirteenth Tribe”, which should explain why the counterfeit “Jews” speak Yiddish.

God has condemned all earthly priests, pastors, rabbis and imams -- all of whom are "wolves in sheep's clothing" (thieves and robbers -- John 10) leading their unwitting(?) followers into The Fire, just as He has condemned the descendants of Esau (the Edomeans/Idumeans/Edomites), so whether the rabbi is an Ashkenazi pretending to be a Jew) or an Edomite, he is destined for The Fire unless he truly repents of his evil ways, and therefore nothing he says should be trusted.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/them-which-say-they-are-jews-but-are-not.6663/

It was the Idumean/Edomite converts to Talmudic Judaism that formed the ruling body (the Sanhedrin) of that evil organized religion 2000 years ago, which schemed and manipulated the crucifixion of Jesus.

Further, the British and Anglo-Saxon American people are actually the TRUE people Israel (Gen. 48:16-19), who are about to be punished by being defeated in WW3 by the Russians and the Chinese, not because they are Edom (who will be completely destroyed), but because they haven't kept The Covenant and God's Law.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/are-the-4-angels-bound-in-the-great-river-euphrates-about-to-be-loosed.6912/

So this latest "revelation" from the "Jewish mystics" is nothing more than the most recent phase of their propaganda campaign, pretending that they are the Biblical Jews and Semites and that America is Edom, when the exact opposite is true.

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but [are] (Idumeans) the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but do LIE (Idumeans); behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

America has had every opportunity and blessing given to her -- as part of the UNCONDITIONAL Covenant made with Abraham -- but that time is now over, as God's Covenant Promises have been fulfilled, which is why America and Great Britain, who are the Two Witnesses, have gradually been weakened, and will be overcome (see Rev. 11:3-7) under the penalty clause of The Law (Deut. 28:15-68).

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/twelve-tribes-of-israel-info-research-thread.5480/post-284935

The hour is very late, and with the current administration running what's left of America into the ground for their Ashkenazi and Idumean/Edomite bankster overlords, it should be self-evident that WW3 is just around the corner.

 

[The Agrarian]

Just more proof of the Jews' misanthropic hatred of Esau/Edom whom they personify as Christianity, Rome, Whites etc. and want to see destroyed.

Modern Judaism is racial resentment wrapped up in Hermetic mysticism.

I challenge any "dispensationalist" to go visit the State of Israel and preach the New Testament in some West Bank settlement. The attitude will turn your stomach.

 

[KoncreteMind]

Then you need to study more about the Roman Kingdom and how much territory they won at their height. Israel was part of their territory. It may not have had as much territory as Greece but it was still a very large territory. It was the most powerful empire on earth at its height of power.

Also biblical prophecy on kingdoms or empires and political powers and governments is about how it affects God's people. The kingdoms and powers spoken of in the book of Daniel affected the Israelites and Jews. Then in the latter part they affect true Christians (in the New Testament they are part of Israel and are Jews) until Jesus returns the second time.

Plus there is no way the book of Daniel skipped over Rome (a kingdom that was still in power in Jesus' time and was responsible for His crucifixion) to the USA.

The Bible gives more detail on Rome and the little horn power more than all the other three kingdoms combined. Because it did many abominable things against God and His people and you've mentioned some of them like changing the Sabbath day which was tampering with God's eternal law, it blasphemed God, persecuted God's people and changed many other things that are not biblical. I have a thread on Catholicism and how its more pagan than it is Christian.

Yes I've heard of the ten kingdoms, they are mentioned in Daniel 7 and it matches history too.

Daniel 7:7-8 says, "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words."

Horns in Bible prophecy symbolise a king, ruler, kingdom or government. Those ten kingdoms as you mentioned broke away from Rome according to history. They were the barbarian tribes that invaded the Roman empire’s territory and eventually became their own kingdoms within Europe. This was when the Roman empire was really on its knees. However, only seven of those 10 kingdoms developed into the countries of modern Western Europe, while three were “uprooted” and destroyed. These were the Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoths. Daniel 7:24 tells us, "The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings." The little horn subdued three horns. In other words, three of the first ten nations would disappear from history! Those are the three horns that were "plucked out by the roots."

As for the little horn:

- It arises from the fourth beast. The fourth beast represents Rome and it comes after Greece as shown in Daniel 8, so the little horn must be a Roman power. Only the papacy fits this point. The papacy came from and was given power by the Roman empire.

- The little horn arises among the ten horns. The ten horns are the divisions of Western Europe (as previously mentioned), so the little horn also must arise in Western Europe too.

- The little horn rises after the ten horns (Daniel 7:24). This matches with history too. According to historians, the ten horns were complete in the year 476 A.D., so this must mean that the little horn was to arise to power sometime after that year.

- The little horn had eyes like a man. In Bible Prophecy, eyes are symbolic of wisdom. In other words, this power was to depend on human wisdom.

- Daniel 7:25 says this power would govern for a time, times and half a time. This comes out to 42 months or 1260 days (see, Revelation 13:5-6; 12:6, 13-15). In Bible prophecy, literal days are symbolic of years, so this power was to govern for 1260 years.

Biblically especially in the book of Daniel, Rome is definitely the fourth kingdom from which the papacy comes from and it uprooted three kingdoms doing so. This is true historically too.

Modern Western Europe has conquered more territory than the Rome you’re pointing to. But anyways I’m not saying that the fourth beast isn’t Rome. I’m saying that Western Europe, and by extension America, is an extension of that same empire. That’s why European kings (Charles V, Charlemagne, Henry IV etc...) held the title of Holy ROMAN Emperor. Because they were an extension of the Roman Empire. The fourth beast that would devour the whole earth was referring to them...

Remember that you asked me to prove that America is part of the fourth beast and I started towards that by showing European kings once calling themselves ROMAN Emperors. And all you really did with was expound on what I said in more detail. Go back and look and you’ll see that it was the ROMAN Catholic Church that gave the Europeans permission to come over to America. And when they did they put up a law (dum diversas) that put the people who wouldn’t bow down to YOUR Christ into “perpetual servitude”

And who would the great beast want to put into “perpetual servitude” more than the Israelites? Hopefully you do the math on that instead of covering your eyes...

 

[phipps]

Modern Western Europe has conquered more territory than the Rome you’re pointing to. But anyways I’m not saying that the fourth beast isn’t Rome. I’m saying that Western Europe, and by extension America, is an extension of that same empire. That’s why European kings (Charles V, Charlemagne, Henry IV etc...) held the title of Holy ROMAN Emperor. Because they were an extension of the Roman Empire. The fourth beast that would devour the whole earth was referring to them...

Remember that you asked me to prove that America is part of the fourth beast and I started towards that by showing European kings once calling themselves ROMAN Emperors. And all you really did with was expound on what I said in more detail. Go back and look and you’ll see that it was the ROMAN Catholic Church that gave the Europeans permission to come over to America. And when they did they put up a law (dum diversas) that put the people who wouldn’t bow down to YOUR Christ into “perpetual servitude”

And who would the great beast want to put into “perpetual servitude” more than the Israelites? Hopefully you do the math on that instead of covering your eyes...

Modern Western Europe has conquered more territory than the Rome you’re pointing to.

You keep focussing on territory. The Bible doesn't, its more influence. It really doesn't matter how much these kingdoms or empires had. The Bible's point is how those kingdoms affected God's people and tell us what is going to happen in the future so that God's people are prepared. Another reason for prophecy plus other spiritual gifts is is for the building up and the equipping of God's people or His church (Ephesians 4:11-16). Also in John 16:4, Jesus said, "These things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you." Most prophecy is understood after it is fulfilled. It strengthens out faith and keeps us from being lied to if understood properly.

But anyways I’m not saying that the fourth beast isn’t Rome. I’m saying that Western Europe, and by extension America, is an extension of that same empire.

You posted,

"Western Europe (and by connection America)is the fourth kingdom."

Not biblically, no. The fourth kingdom which is the Roman empire does not rule until the end of time biblically. America which is a power at the end just before Jesus returns is therefore not the fourth kingdom. Lets use the right biblical terminology to keep things straight and easily understood. I don't want to add to what the Bible says and none of us should. There are elements of Rome in America (the second beast in Revelation 13) because it forces the whole world to worship the first beast (the papacy) whose origins and many of its beliefs come from but that does not make it the "fourth kingdom" nor does the Bible say it is.

That’s why European kings (Charles V, Charlemagne, Henry IV etc...) held the title of Holy ROMAN Emperor. Because they were an extension of the Roman Empire. The fourth beast that would devour the whole earth was referring to them...

I disagree with this. And so does the Word of God because Charles V, Charlemagne, Henry IV etc... came on their thrones after the Roman empire fell. It doesn't matter what they called themselves, it is the emperors of Rome who took Judah captive and ruled over it which is why pagan or imperial Rome is written of in the Bible. Remember its how these empires affect/affected God's people biblically.

For example, it is the Roman army under Titus that completely destroyed the temple and killed so many people in Jerusalem in 70 AD when they burned the temple to the ground. This is historical too.

The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was prophesied by Daniel. This would happen because the Jews had rejected Messiah the prince. A careful study of Daniel 9:25-27 will show this to be the case. In verse 25 Messiah is promised to Israel and the city's restoration is also predicted. But then, ominously, all is prophesied for doom again. Verse 26 speaks of Messiah being killed by His own people and of how this act would cause their city and sanctuary to be desolated once again. The earthly temple would never be rebuilt again after this.

Jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem too and told those who believed in Him what to do and when to get out of Jerusalem. "For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation” (Luke 19:41-44).

So the Bible is/was clearly referring to the Roman empire before the papacy as the fourth kingdom. Not those kings you mentioned who came after.

Remember that you asked me to prove that America is part of the fourth beast and I started towards that by showing European kings once calling themselves ROMAN Emperors. And all you really did with was expound on what I said in more detail. Go back and look and you’ll see that it was the ROMAN Catholic Church that gave the Europeans permission to come over to America. And when they did they put up a law (dum diversas) that put the people who wouldn’t bow down to YOUR Christ into “perpetual servitude”

I expounded on what you said because you got some things wrong according to biblical prophecy. You mixed the truth with lies. Its best to stick to biblical truth not what you think. The truth of God cannot be mixed with lies.

The papacy definitely has Roman beginnings and beliefs obviously. In the statue of Daniel 2 that king Nebuchadnezzar dreamt of, the feet are mixed with clay and iron. That suggests elements and influences of Rome are still mixed in there. And we are living in the time of the feet. But the kings you mentioned who came after the Roman empire fell and America, are not the fourth kingdom.

I'll add an example to make my point more clear. In Revelation 13 the Bible talks about the first beast which is the papacy and it says in verse 2, "Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority." From Daniel 7 we know that the leopard represents Greece, the bear represents Medo-Persia and the lion represents Babylon. So the papacy has elements of all those kingdoms or empires combined. The papacy has incorporated many of the beliefs and styles of governance of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and obviously the Roman empire into its own worship and styles of governance but it doesn't make it any of those kingdoms.

The fourth kingdom does not last until the end of time biblically. Just because there are elements of it through the papacy doesn't mean you can call it the "fourth kingdom". The Word of God, that God gave gave to us through the Holy Spirit, doesn't call the 10 European kingdoms that fought against the Roman empire and formed their own kingdoms and America the "fourth kingdom". They came after the fourth kingdom fell.

 

[A Freeman]

Regarding the 5 kingdoms referred to in Daniel 2 (yes, there are 5, not just 4):

1. The image's head of gold: the Babylonian Empire.
2. The arms of silver: the Medo-Persian Empire.
3. The belly and his thighs of brass: Alexander the Great's Greek Empire.
4. The legs of iron, with feet part of iron and part of clay: The Eastern and Western Roman Empires (note: the Romans are the direct descendants of the Babylonians, and the same race of people).
5. The "Stone" kingdom that shall be set up -- not by other people, but by the people Israel: The British Empire, ruled from the Davidic Throne (Ps. 89:34-36), to be given to Christ (SOON -- Ezek. 21:26-27, Luke 1:32). And it is Christ, the Chief Cornerstone, Who will destroy what's left of the Roman Empire, and its Babylonian mystery religion, also exactly as prophesied (see Rev. 17 & 18).

Daniel 2
2:1 And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep departed from him.
2:2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to show the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.
2:3 And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream.
2:4 Then spoke the Chaldeans to the king in Syriack, O king, live for ever: tell thy servants the dream, and we will show the interpretation.
2:5 The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, The thing is gone from me: if ye will not make known unto me the dream, with the interpretation thereof, ye shall be cut in pieces, and your houses shall be made a dunghill.
2:6 But if ye show the dream, and the interpretation thereof, ye shall receive of me gifts and rewards and great honour: therefore show me the dream, and the interpretation thereof.
2:7 They answered again and said, Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will show the interpretation of it.
2:8 The king answered and said, I know of certainty that ye would gain the time, because ye see the thing is gone from me.
2:9 But if ye will not make known unto me the dream, [there is but] one decree for you: for ye have prepared lying and corrupt words to speak before me, till the time be changed: therefore tell me the dream, and I shall know that ye can show me the interpretation thereof.
2:10 The Chaldeans answered before the king, and said, There is not a man upon the earth that can show the king's matter: therefore [there is] no king, lord, nor ruler, [that] asked such things of any magician, or astrologer, or Chaldean.
2:11 And [it is] a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can show it before the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh.
2:12 For this cause the king was angry and very furious, and commanded to destroy all the wise [men] of Babylon.
2:13 And the decree went forth that the wise [men] should be slain; and they sought Daniel and his fellows to be slain.
2:14 Then Daniel answered with counsel and Wisdom to Arioch the captain of the king's guard, which was gone forth to slay the wise [men] of Babylon:
2:15 He answered and said to Arioch the king's captain, Why [is] the decree [so] hasty from the king? Then Arioch made the thing known to Daniel.
2:16 Then Daniel went in, and desired of the king that he would give him time, and that he would show the king the interpretation.
2:17 Then Daniel went to his house, and made the thing known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions:
2:18 That they would desire mercies of the God of heaven concerning this secret; that Daniel and his fellows should not perish with the rest of the wise [men] of Babylon.
2:19 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven.
2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are His:
2:21 And He changeth the times and the seasons: He removeth kings, and setteth up kings: He giveth Wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
2:22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: He knoweth what [is] in the darkness, and the Light dwelleth with Him.
2:23 I thank Thee, and praise Thee, O Thou God of my fathers, who hast given me Wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of Thee: for Thou hast [now] made known unto us the king's matter.
2:24 Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had ordained to destroy the wise [men] of Babylon: he went and said thus unto him; Destroy not the wise [men] of Babylon: bring me in before the king, and I will show unto the king the interpretation.
2:25 Then Arioch brought in Daniel before the king in haste, and said thus unto him, I have found a man of the captives of Judah, that will make known unto the king the interpretation.
2:26 The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name [was] Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof?
2:27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise [men], the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, show unto the king;
2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came [into thy mind] upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and He that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
2:30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for [any] wisdom that I have more than any one else, but for [their] sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness [was] excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof [was] terrible.
2:32 This image's head [was] of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
2:34 Thou sawest till that a Stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet [that were] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the "Stone" that smote the image became a great "mountain", and filled the whole earth.
2:36 This [is] the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
2:37 Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath He given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou [art] this head of gold (the Babylonian Empire).
2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee (Cyrus and the Medo-Persian Empire), and another third kingdom of brass (Alexander the Great's Greek Empire), which shall bear rule over all the earth.
2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron (the Roman Empire): forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all [things]: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided (into the Eastern and Western Roman Empires); but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
2:42 And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay (Rev. 13:1; 17:12), [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
2:44 And in the days of these kings (Rev. 17:12-14) shall the God of heaven set up a Kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the Kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the "Stone" was cut out of the "mountain" without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [is] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
2:46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.
2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth [it is], that your God [is] a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.
2:48 Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise [men] of Babylon.
2:49 Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel [sat] in the gate of the king.

 

[KoncreteMind]

You keep focussing on territory. The Bible doesn't, its more influence. It really doesn't matter how much these kingdoms or empires had. The Bible's point is how those kingdoms affected God's people and tell us what is going to happen in the future so that God's people are prepared. Another reason for prophecy plus other spiritual gifts is is for the building up and the equipping of God's people or His church (Ephesians 4:11-16). Also in John 16:4, Jesus said, "These things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you." Most prophecy is understood after it is fulfilled. It strengthens out faith and keeps us from being lied to if understood properly.



You posted,

Not biblically, no. The fourth kingdom which is the Roman empire does not rule until the end of time biblically. America which is a power at the end just before Jesus returns is therefore not the fourth kingdom. Lets use the right biblical terminology to keep things straight and easily understood. I don't want to add to what the Bible says and none of us should. There are elements of Rome in America (the second beast in Revelation 13) because it forces the whole world to worship the first beast (the papacy) whose origins and many of its beliefs come from but that does not make it the "fourth kingdom" nor does the Bible say it is.


I disagree with this. And so does the Word of God because Charles V, Charlemagne, Henry IV etc... came on their thrones after the Roman empire fell. It doesn't matter what they called themselves, it is the emperors of Rome who took Judah captive and ruled over it which is why pagan or imperial Rome is written of in the Bible. Remember its how these empires affect/affected God's people biblically.

For example, it is the Roman army under Titus that completely destroyed the temple and killed so many people in Jerusalem in 70 AD when they burned the temple to the ground. This is historical too.

The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was prophesied by Daniel. This would happen because the Jews had rejected Messiah the prince. A careful study of Daniel 9:25-27 will show this to be the case. In verse 25 Messiah is promised to Israel and the city's restoration is also predicted. But then, ominously, all is prophesied for doom again. Verse 26 speaks of Messiah being killed by His own people and of how this act would cause their city and sanctuary to be desolated once again. The earthly temple would never be rebuilt again after this.

Jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem too and told those who believed in Him what to do and when to get out of Jerusalem. "For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation” (Luke 19:41-44).

So the Bible is/was clearly referring to the Roman empire before the papacy as the fourth kingdom. Not those kings you mentioned who came after.



I expounded on what you said because you got some things wrong according to biblical prophecy. You mixed the truth with lies. Its best to stick to biblical truth not what you think. The truth of God cannot be mixed with lies.

The papacy definitely has Roman beginnings and beliefs obviously. In the statue of Daniel 2 that king Nebuchadnezzar dreamt of, the feet are mixed with clay and iron. That suggests elements and influences of Rome are still mixed in there. And we are living in the time of the feet. But the kings you mentioned who came after the Roman empire fell and America, are not the fourth kingdom.

I'll add an example to make my point more clear. In Revelation 13 the Bible talks about the first beast which is the papacy and it says in verse 2, "Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority." From Daniel 7 we know that the leopard represents Greece, the bear represents Medo-Persia and the lion represents Babylon. So the papacy has elements of all those kingdoms or empires combined. The papacy has incorporated many of the beliefs and styles of governance of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and obviously the Roman empire into its own worship and styles of governance but it doesn't make it any of those kingdoms.

The fourth kingdom does not last until the end of time biblically. Just because there are elements of it through the papacy doesn't mean you can call it the "fourth kingdom". The Word of God, that God gave gave to us through the Holy Spirit, doesn't call the 10 European kingdoms that fought against the Roman empire and formed their own kingdoms and America the "fourth kingdom". They came after the fourth kingdom fell.

The problem with what you’re saying, and your religion in general, is that you try to superimpose your NT doctrine over the OT. Because Daniel ABSOLUTELY says that the fourth kingdom is last before God’s kingdom. It’s right there in Daniel 7.

26 “‘But the court will sit, and his (the king who comes from the fourth beast) power will be taken away and completely destroyedforever.27 Then(AS IN AFTER) the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy PEOPLE OF THE MOST HIGH

This verse disputes your whole interpretation. But your loophole is running to the NT and telling me what it says about what Daniel wrote which islike me going to the Quran to tell you about what your Jesus meant. How you can read this, say you believe it’s from God but tell me the fourth kingdom fell thousands of years ago is only because you superimpose the NT over the OT. So you interpret the OT to fit the NT... And the people who ruled after then and now aren’t “the Holy people of the Most High” mentioned in Daniel. Now who gets it next? Will be. That’s how you know it’s not going to be China, Russia or any other nation that takes over as the next world super power. It’s all in Daniel...

Also I don’t want to hear the “just because they call themselves that doesn’t mean they are” argument coming from someone who believes the people who call themselves Jews are the people of the book because they say so. The facts are that they were SANCTIONED to conquer this side of the world by the Roman Catholic Church and while doing so called themselves Roman Emperors. Showing that they were an extension of that same empire. For instance Charlemagne:

Charlemagne or Charles the Great from the Latin Carolus Magnus (2 April 748[5][d] – 28 January 814), numbered Charles I, was King of the Franks from 768, King of the Lombards from 774, and Emperor of the Romans from 800.


King of the Franks(one of the 10 tribes that attacked the original Roman Empire) then later Roman Emperor. The original Rome was taken over and continued on thru the modern Europeans..And once that’s acknowledged then it’s clear who the Israelites are and aren’t. Because the modern European didn’t oppress the modern Jew in any way, he handed him the “holy” land thru the Balfour declaration.