Where Did Jesus Say, “I Am God; Worship Me”?

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TokiEl

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So, you're incapable of replying to the verses I quoted above? This is what we are too assume with your deflection, correct? Why do you even bother quoting my post when you literally ignore all of it?

The questions i posed above are simple. Can you not field a single one? This is why i tend to avoid these topics. It doesn't matter what proof is offered, its always ignored and "countered" with different verses. Its a waste of time for me.. and you.

Don't worry, pretty much every trinny does what you do. Ignores and attempts to save face by quoting other obscure verses ignoring the questions at hand. As if this gives vindication.
I am not obliged to answer your silly questions.
 

Daze

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@TokiEl made the same argument in the other thread:
Tnx
"The Father is greater than the Son.
That's just how it is. "
Can someone help me understand how this is ONE entity?

Am i greater then myself? Are you greater then yourself?
 

TokiEl

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Tnx

Can someone help me understand how this is ONE entity?

Am i greater then myself? Are you greater then yourself?
Well you know the Creator created fire...

And so the Creator is greater than fire right.

Fire can divide into tongues of fire... and not diminish.


Imagine how much greater and more capable the Creator is.
 

A Freeman

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They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah – Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. (Quran 5:27)​
Isn't that Sura 5:75 please?

Sura 5:75. They do blaspheme who say: "("I AM") is Jesus the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord (John 20:17)." Whoever joins other gods with God,- "I AM" will forbid him The Garden, and The Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
 
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As you might know, depending on how deep you've gotten into the theology of your current religion, God is one ousia (being) that subsists of three hypostases (persons), that is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These persons are distinct in their relations to one another, that the Father begets, the Son is begotten, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father. However, because these three persons share one essence and are one indivisible God so the prevailing orthodoxy claims, then that means they all share the same will, and are each fully God in their own right, but still not divisible so as to be polytheism.

It seems to be the case, however, that the Trinitarian view of the nature of God is simply polytheism that pays lip service to monotheism in order to appear in line with the religion that we have inherited from the children of Israel. The Prophet Moses declared "Hear, o Israel, the Lord our God is One," and we are committed to this unity, something the Muslims call tawheed.

So how does the Trinity contradict the Shema Yisrael?

I'll translate the famous diagram of the Trinity mathematically to help illustrate.

  1. There is one number, this number is x.
  2. a is equal to x
  3. b is equal to x
  4. c is equal to x
  5. a is not equal to b; a is not equal to c; b is not equal to c
These are the premises argued by Christian orthodoxy to detail the Trinity. We have a clear contradiction here that many (most, if not all) Christian apologists will chalk up to mystery. This is something mere mortals cannot understand. There are two problems with this response. Muslims accept that God is beyond being captured by human rationality. God relies on absolutely nothing outside of Himself for his being (non-contingent existence), and while I have no experience or rational way to explain non-contingency, I can say that it is true of my God, because if God depended on something else to exist, then that thing on which he depends would be more worthy of worship. The first problem, then, is that there is a vast difference between something that is beyond human means of rationality, and something which is inherently self-contradictory in its formulation. In the above mathematical diagram of the Trinity, not all five premises are able to be true at the same time. The variables a, b, and c cannot all equal x without also being equal to each other because of the transitive property. If a, b, and c are all equal to x, then we must be able to say a=b=c=x. What this does for the argument is remove premise 5, and as to our analogy to the Trinity, this removes any personal distinctions within God so that there is no longer Father, Son, or Holy Spirit, but simply God. The only other option for this to make sense is to remove premise 1 and adjust the variables accordingly, creating three Gods.

The second problem with excusing irrational doctrines as extra-rational mysteries is that it sets precedent for any crazy doctrine to be cooked up and sold as mystery. You could make anything up and denounce your detractors as arrogant sophists trying to explain the unexplainable when they question your lunacy!

In short, the Trinity does not make sense. Christians believe that the Father is fully and distinctly God, the Son is fully and distinctly God, the Holy Spirit is fully and distinctly God, and that these three persons neither add up to one God (partialism) nor are they modes of a single hypostasis (Sabellianism). There is no way for this to be anything other than polytheism, and any claims otherwise are unfounded. Trinitarian monotheism is a facade of the post-Nicaea Church.

The other substantial difference between Islam and Christianity with regards to the nature of God is that Muslims reject that God could become incarnate, that He could ever join Himself to Creation, that he could ever become subject to Creation. This seems simple enough. Would you not agree that 'Creator' and 'Creation' are mutually exclusive attributes? That is, is it not completely illogical to say that something is both the Creator and a Creation at the same time? You might cite the Bible and say that "Jesus emptied himself out and became lower than the angels for a little while," so clearly he wasn't both Creator and Creation at the same time, right? The Council of Chalcedon would be a good read in response to this, but the short answer is "no." Jesus, according to Christian orthodoxy, is fully Man and fully God, and according to the Second Council of Constantinople (anathema 2 or 3 I believe), we cannot divide credit for the two natures of Christ. Meaning, we cannot say that Christ's divine nature did this but his human nature did that. Everything that Christ did or was done to Christ must be considered equally done by or to both the human and divine natures.
Understanding this, let me pose questions to you:

  1. Does God need to be born? Does he need to eat, drink, sleep, use the bathroom? Is God able to experience an existence where he has to rely on things outside of Himself to exist? Is God not necessarily non-contingent, relying on nothing outside of Himself for His Being?
  2. Can God be struck or killed? In other words, is God not immutable?
  3. Can God be ignorant of the season of the fig tree? Can God be ignorant of the Last Hour? Is God not omniscient?
  4. Can God submit? Is God not the One to whom all things submit?
  5. Can God want something other than what God wants, as Christ begged against the will of God in Gethsemane? Can God be self-contradictory?
At the end of the day, the Trinity is an unnatural doctrine. Doctrines like Modalism or Arianism within the Christian tradition are much more intuitive and express a better line of thought than the artificial Trinitarian doctrine could ever do. The Trinity as we know it today is a product of men three centuries after the death of Christ, men who crucified the monotheism of their fathers in favor of elevating Jesus and a personified Spirit of God to a place where none other than the one God deserves to be. Read your Bible and you will not find stories of a God who is one but subsists in three persons. You will find stories of a faithful servant prostrating to his Lord and preaching the truth about the One God.

What does Islam say?

Say, 'He is God the One, God the eternal. He begot no one nor was He begotten. No one is comparable to Him.'
 
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Todd

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Sorry for the short reply here @DesertRose ...

In the gospels, Jesus demonstrates who He is but does not claim it.

There is a lot in this verse...

John 5:43 - King James Version

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Jesus demonstrated who He was, but did not push Himself forward.

The Humbled and Exalted Christ
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We have free will and God honours that. To imagine that Jesus would come to earth, show off some miracles, declare that He was God and demand worship is to misunderstand the heart of God.

One day, another will come, declare himself as God and demand worship in the “Holy Place”. This person will be neither Christ of God.

In John 14:12 Jesus said we would do greater than works than he did. So if Jesus' works prove he is God what do the "greater works", that we are supposed to do, prove?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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In John 14:12 Jesus said we would do greater than works than he did. So if Jesus' works prove he is God what do the "greater works", that we are supposed to do, prove?
I think an examination of the gospels reveals that Jesus’s miracles were one indication of the fact that God was with Him, but others had performed miracles through the power of God and not claimed that God was their Father.

Throughout the OT, there are numerous prophecies pointing to the identity of the Messiah. Jesus fulfilled these yet didn’t shout about them. God gave the people of that day ample reason to believe in and recognise the time of their visitation.

As to greater works, I have always took it as meaning greater in number?
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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To the topic, I make no attempt to argue with Islamic perspectives here as, in one sense the whole Qur’an is a polemic against the Trinity.

My thinking on the subject is as follows.

As creatures, we are qualitatively different beings than our creator. We lack attributes that cannot even make sense to us. What is it, for example, to be “omnipresent” since to be fully present everywhere would seem to be a logical fail? Omnipotence and eternality also fail to connect with attributes we can draw or extrapolate from our own lives.

We can certainly know some things if God from looking at nature, ourselves and using the laws of logic, but ultimately, when the temporal wishes to comprehend the absolute, we surely run up short.

This doesn’t mean it is “illogical”, but it does mean that human reason is more like reaching the end of a road at the edge of a cliff when it comes to understanding the nature of God, at which point, faith most take over in accepting his self-revelation or we must stop.


The closest analogy that has continued to make sense to me is when physics has delved beyond the atomic world into the quantum universe and found that the reliable, logical nature of reality becomes suddenly alarmingly strange!

6E0E7019-F135-4BCF-8C9B-9E9E8B873816.jpeg

Please note - these examples are not intended to prove the Trinity, any more than they prove any of the other “illogical” characteristics of an infinite being, but are intended to illustrate why conventional Islamic arguments have very little traction with Christians.
 
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Todd

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I think an examination of the gospels reveals that Jesus’s miracles were one indication of the fact that God was with him, but others had performed miracles through the power of God and not claimed that God was their Father.

Throughout the OT, there are numerous prophecies pointing to the identity of the Messiah. Jesus fulfilled these yet didn’t shout about them. God gave the people of that day ample reason to believe in and recognise the time of their visitation.

As to greater works, I have always took it as meaning greater in number?
I agree with the part of your post that I bolded above. However there is nothing in the OT prophecies that requires the Messiah be God himself.
 

Mr.Anderson

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Just answering the question, I do not want to convince anyone of anything. I just have some free time right now before resuming my studies for some big exam thing in 2 months or so.

The whole chapter 14 of John's gospel is about it, the part I'm the life, the truth and the way, no one comes to the father but trough me is what convinces me the most, personally.

Regarding the trinity, God the Father is the part of God that created everything and stuff.

God the Son is the part of God that walked around the earth phisically (and some OT parts as the Angel of God) and experienced first hand the human journey in everything but sin.

God the Holy Spirit is the part of God that lives in you and guide you and everything.

Dang, God is a spirit, he has no need for a phisical body, it's not that hard to understand. Everyone has a heart, a brain, lungs and lot of other organs and no one is confused about that. If I give my kidney to someone and the rest of my body dies, am I dead or alive? The kidney is my body but still it isn't me but still is me after all.
 

A Freeman

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The terms "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" do not appear anywhere in Scripture.

The word "of" is used to show possession, belonging, or origin.

The number "one" means one. The number "two" means two. The number "three" means three.

People need to stop reading into verses their silly superstitions and instead read what it ACTUALLY says.

Christ stated through the mouth of Jesus at least 144 times (more really) that He is NOT God.

Anyone who claims the opposite of what Christ says is calling Christ a liar and is, by definition, ANTI-CHRIST.
 

Tidal

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We know Jesus wasn't God because he said so himself..:)-

Jesus said - "I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )
Jesus said -"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
Jesus said - "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
 
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We know Jesus wasn't God because he said so himself..:)-

Jesus said - "I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )
Jesus said -"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
Jesus said - "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
i thought you were a trinitarian christian? what are you if not that?
 
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