The Biblical Case for a “Pre-Tribulation” Rapture

[Lisa]

Yes, believers that remain alive when Armageddon is over. The Jewish ones will finally possess the land that was promised, and the living gentiles will repopulate the rest of the nations. Jesus Christ will rule over them all.

All the believers were raptured...remember that the dead in Christ rise first then we who remain will meet the Lord in the sky..so no..there are no believers that remain when Armageddon is over..except for the Jews that God is saving who ran when the anti was revealed.
But, yes there are going to be living gentiles..when you said there were none left over that they were all killed..and I kept saying someone was left over because of v.15.

 

[Thunderian]

All the believers were raptured...remember that the dead in Christ rise first then we who remain will meet the Lord in the sky..so no..there are no believers that remain when Armageddon is over..except for the Jews that God is saving who ran when the anti was revealed.
But, yes there are going to be living gentiles..when you said there were none left over that they were all killed..and I kept saying someone was left over because of v.15.

God is going to repopulate the earth with Jews and with people who took the mark of the beast?

 

[Lisa]

God is going to repopulate the earth with Jews and with people who took the mark of the beast?

Who do you think need to be ruled with a rod of iron? The Jews? They just found out Jesus was their Messiah and as a nation wept for Him.

 

[Thunderian]

Who do you think need to be ruled with a rod of iron?

So your picture of Jesus Christ’s millennial reign of global peace and harmony includes an unsaved populace that needs a harsh dictatorship? That doesn’t sound at all like the way the Bible describes it. Rod of iron means a firm and just governance. Don’t let that term mean more than it does, because as it is, you’re having to change other verses in scripture so everything makes sense.

I can think of at least a couple of instances in the Bible where people got into trouble by changing God’s word to suit themselves, so it’s something that I try really hard not to do. Revelation 19:21 can only be interpreted as meaning that ALL the unbelievers are dead at the end of this age. There is no way to interpret that verse otherwise. I know that conflicts with your ideas that no one will be saved after the Rapture, and that the unsaved will populate the earth during the Millennium, but I don’t see how you can hold either of those positions without changing the clear meaning of the word “remnant”, and of God’s word.

 

[Lisa]

So your picture of Jesus Christ’s millennial reign of global peace and harmony includes an unsaved populace that needs a harsh dictatorship? That doesn’t sound at all like the way the Bible describes it. Rod of iron means a firm and just governance. Don’t let that term mean more than it does, because as it is, you’re having to change other verses in scripture so everything makes sense.

I can think of at least a couple of instances in the Bible where people got into trouble by changing God’s word to suit themselves, so it’s something that I try really hard not to do. Revelation 19:21 can only be interpreted as meaning that ALL the unbelievers are dead at the end of this age. There is no way to interpret that verse otherwise. I know that conflicts with your ideas that no one will be saved after the Rapture, and that the unsaved will populate the earth during the Millennium, but I don’t see how you can hold either of those positions without changing the clear meaning of the word “remnant”, and of God’s word.

I don’t believe I said that the rod of iron was a harsh dictatorship. I just said He will rule with a rod of iron..you’re the one that went to harsh dictatorship.

I took v.21 to mean all the rest of the army that didn’t die..not the rest of the people’s that are alive on the earth. Not every human will be in that fight. That woild make both verses fit..because Jesus is going to rule the nations ergo there are nations left to rule.

I suppose if your rapture is the pretrib then you think people will be saved afterwards but the rapture I think will happen is the Prewrath..and at God’s wrath..like the scriptures I provided no one is saved because they won’t repent and/or they’ve taken the mark and worshipped the image. I don’t see how quoting those verses is wrong. The verses themselves say no one repented..how is that out of context?

 

[Thunderian]

I don’t believe I said that the rod of iron was a harsh dictatorship. I just said He will rule with a rod of iron..you’re the one that went to harsh dictatorship.

But when I asked you if you meant that the earth would be populated with Jews and with people who had accepted the mark, you asked who I thought would need to be ruled with a rod of iron. I may have misinterpreted what you meant, but since everyone who took the mark is promised that they will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, and will be tormented with fire and brimstone, I can't accept that God will be stocking an earth he's just cleansed of evil with souls who are destined for hell, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

You also have to consider that when Jesus returns, he will divide the sheep from the goats, and execute judgement on the goats. Do you suppose anyone, living or dead, is going to escape that judgement? No, the earth will initially be populated by saved believers, Jews and gentiles, who lived through the Tribulation.

I took v.21 to mean all the rest of the army that didn’t die..not the rest of the people’s that are alive on the earth. Not every human will be in that fight. That woild make both verses fit..because Jesus is going to rule the nations ergo there are nations left to rule.

Even if they're alive at the end of Armageddon, they will have to survive immediate judgement.

Mat 25:31​

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:​

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Mat 25:32​

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:​

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Mat 25:33​

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.​

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Mat 25:34​

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:​

​

The kingdom prepared for you, Jesus says. No unsaved person may enter the kingdom of heaven.

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Mat 25:41​

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​

No unsaved person will be left alive.

I suppose if your rapture is the pretrib then you think people will be saved afterwards but the rapture I think will happen is the Prewrath..and at God’s wrath..like the scriptures I provided no one is saved because they won’t repent and/or they’ve taken the mark and worshipped the image. I don’t see how quoting those verses is wrong. The verses themselves say no one repented..how is that out of context?

If no one can be saved after the Rapture, who are the saved gentiles who enter the Millennial Kingdom along with Israel?

 

[TokiEl]

Matthew 24:29 is similar to Revelation 6:12-17 at the time of God's wrath. And Matthew 24:30-31 sounds like the sealing of the 144k in Revelation 7:1-8.
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Matt 24 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.


30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



The idea that all believers in Jesus will be selected at that time is untenable... it's only the elect.

 

[Lisa]

But when I asked you if you meant that the earth would be populated with Jews and with people who had accepted the mark, you asked who I thought would need to be ruled with a rod of iron. I may have misinterpreted what you meant, but since everyone who took the mark is promised that they will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, and will be tormented with fire and brimstone, I can't accept that God will be stocking an earth he's just cleansed of evil with souls who are destined for hell, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

You also have to consider that when Jesus returns, he will divide the sheep from the goats, and execute judgement on the goats. Do you suppose anyone, living or dead, is going to escape that judgement? No, the earth will initially be populated by saved believers, Jews and gentiles, who lived through the Tribulation.



Even if they're alive at the end of Armageddon, they will have to survive immediate judgement.

Mat 25:31​

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:​

​

Mat 25:32​

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:​

​

Mat 25:33​

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.​

​

Mat 25:34​

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:​

​

The kingdom prepared for you, Jesus says. No unsaved person may enter the kingdom of heaven.

​

Mat 25:41​

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​

No unsaved person will be left alive.




If no one can be saved after the Rapture, who are the saved gentiles who enter the Millennial Kingdom along with Israel?

Who do you think the nations are that is talked about?

I don’t think anyone will be saved in God’s wrath which comes after the rapture. I don’t agree that no unsaved person is left alive..who are the nations then? They aren’t saved are they? If they are saved then they go in the rapture.

 

[Thunderian]

Who do you think the nations are that is talked about?

Why do you think they're all unbelievers? The verses I posted from Matthew 25 say that Jesus gathers all the nations, and divides them into saved and unsaved -- sheep and goats. The saved nations enter the kingdom of Heaven, which is an earth where the curse has been lifted, God is on the throne, and only believers are allowed to enter into. Nowhere do we get the idea that "nations" means unsaved. Nowhere. You are making this up.

Isa 2:2​

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.​

According to you, those are unsaved nations flowing into the Lord's house in Jerusalem.

I don’t think anyone will be saved in God’s wrath which comes after the rapture.

That's fine. Who populates the Millennium?

I don’t agree that no unsaved person is left alive..

How can you say this? HOW CAN YOU SAY THIS? It's completely in contradiction with scripture I literally just posted. The Bible says clearly in Matthew 24 that no unsaved person will enter the Millennial kingdom, that all the unsaved will be sent to hell. How on earth could any of them be alive? Don't just tell me you don't agree. Show me from scripture how that opinion makes any sense at all.

They aren’t saved are they? If they are saved then they go in the rapture.

Then who enters the Millennium? It can't be anyone who is unsaved.

 

[Lisa]

Why do you think they're all unbelievers? The verses I posted from Matthew 25 say that Jesus gathers all the nations, and divides them into saved and unsaved -- sheep and goats. The saved nations enter the kingdom of Heaven, which is an earth where the curse has been lifted, God is on the throne, and only believers are allowed to enter into. Nowhere do we get the idea that "nations" means unsaved. Nowhere. You are making this up.

Isa 2:2​

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.​

According to you, those are unsaved nations flowing into the Lord's house in Jerusalem.



That's fine. Who populates the Millennium?



How can you say this? HOW CAN YOU SAY THIS? It's completely in contradiction with scripture I literally just posted. The Bible says clearly in Matthew 24 that no unsaved person will enter the Millennial kingdom, that all the unsaved will be sent to hell. How on earth could any of them be alive? Don't just tell me you don't agree. Show me from scripture how that opinion makes any sense at all.



Then who enters the Millennium? It can't be anyone who is unsaved.

The reason I think they are unsaved is because they are from the nations. Are you saying that the nations typically means saved people? Nations as you read the Bible means the unsaved at least as I read the Bible. Israel is a nation but they are God’s only chosen people the rest of the nations are not..they are gentiles. That’s why when I read the nations I don’t read saved people.

Then with the rapture..it doesn’t happen until after the anti is revealed and he doesn’t get revealed until he sits in the new Jewish temple at the abomination of desolation. Idk exactly how long after he is revealed but Paul says that the rapture doesn’t happen until at least that. So we are talking mid trib for sure...at least. God says we aren’t destined for His wrath..so it will be between His wrath and the revealing of the anti in the middle of the trib. How many people are going to become Christians after they see Christians beheaded for their faith? I’m not thinking too many....and in God’s wrath we see no one repenting. So it would only be a short period of time when new believers could be saved between the anti being revealed and God’s wrath.

Even then however..the dead in Christ rise first and then we who are alive will follow. So doesn’t that mean that God gets all the Christians out of there? Would there then be any Christians left on the earth? And why? Paul state’s we who are alive follow. I don’t really see how any Christians would or could be left.

So, if it’s not people who took the mark..which they probably aren’t the people talked about it will be unsaved people from the nations which is why Jesus rules with a rod of iron in the first place. Because no matter how you want to spin that..itd not gonna be a rule without problems.

 

[Thunderian]

The reason I think they are unsaved is because they are from the nations. Are you saying that the nations typically means saved people? Nations as you read the Bible means the unsaved at least as I read the Bible. Israel is a nation but they are God’s only chosen people the rest of the nations are not..they are gentiles. That’s why when I read the nations I don’t read saved people.

Then with the rapture..it doesn’t happen until after the anti is revealed and he doesn’t get revealed until he sits in the new Jewish temple at the abomination of desolation. Idk exactly how long after he is revealed but Paul says that the rapture doesn’t happen until at least that. So we are talking mid trib for sure...at least. God says we aren’t destined for His wrath..so it will be between His wrath and the revealing of the anti in the middle of the trib. How many people are going to become Christians after they see Christians beheaded for their faith? I’m not thinking too many....and in God’s wrath we see no one repenting. So it would only be a short period of time when new believers could be saved between the anti being revealed and God’s wrath.

Even then however..the dead in Christ rise first and then we who are alive will follow. So doesn’t that mean that God gets all the Christians out of there? Would there then be any Christians left on the earth? And why? Paul state’s we who are alive follow. I don’t really see how any Christians would or could be left.

So, if it’s not people who took the mark..which they probably aren’t the people talked about it will be unsaved people from the nations which is why Jesus rules with a rod of iron in the first place. Because no matter how you want to spin that..itd not gonna be a rule without problems.

OK, forget about nations and rods of iron. Go to the word of God and read Matthew 25 about the judgement where Jesus divides the sheep from the goats. The Bible says that the sheep go into the millennial kingdom and that the goats go to hell. Are you saying that you believe that some of the goats don’t go to hell? Are you saying you believe that God lets some of them enter into the kingdom he plainly declares He has prepared only for those who believe?

Just answer yes or no, please.

 

[Lisa]

OK, forget about nations and rods of iron. Go to the word of God and read Matthew 25 about the judgement where Jesus divides the sheep from the goats. The Bible says that the sheep go into the millennial kingdom and that the goats go to hell. Are you saying that you believe that some of the goats don’t go to hell? Are you saying you believe that God lets some of them enter into the kingdom he plainly declares He has prepared only for those who believe?

Just answer yes or no, please.

Who are the nations then? Really. That’s my hang up...who are the nations that are in the Millennium? Idk who they could be...if not some unbelievers...some people who made it through the trib and the wrath of God. I get what you’re saying about the sheep and the goats..but who are the nations that he rules with a rod of iron.

 

[Thunderian]

The nations that are ruled are the descendants of living believers who are able to enter the millennial kingdom. I am not sure why you think “nations” means unbelievers. Did you stop being an American when you accepted Christ?

 

[Lisa]

The nations that are ruled are the descendants of living believers who are able to enter the millennial kingdom. I am not sure why you think “nations” means unbelievers. Did you stop being an American when you accepted Christ?

Yes, I did actually. I became part of God’s kingdom..I am not part of this world..I live in this world but I’m not a part of it.

See..that doesn’t make sense to me...how can they be descendant of living believers if the believers were raptured? The dead in Christ rise first then we who are alive. Doesn’t say some of us who are alive...but we who are alive go in the rapture. The rapture happens after the anti is revealed and before God’s wrath. How many nations do you think are formed between those two time periods?

Even on the new earth there will be nations and kings...I really don‘t know what to think about that, honestly.

Revelation‬ ‭21:24‬ ‭
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

Revelation 21:24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. | New American Standard Bible (NASB) | Download The Bible App Now

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

www.bible.com

 

[Thunderian]

how can they be descendant of living believers if the believers were raptured?

Because people can accept Christ after the Rapture. There will be saved people from every nation, tribe and tongue who will be preserved through the tribulation and who will enter the millennial kingdom when Jesus Christ invites them to. They will revive the nations.

Their descendants won’t all become believers, but the Bible is very clear that no unbelievers will be allowed to enter the kingdom.

 

[Thunderian]

Lisa, all your confusion would go away if you accepted the pretrib view.

 

[Lisa]

Because people can accept Christ after the Rapture. There will be saved people from every nation, tribe and tongue who will be preserved through the tribulation and who will enter the millennial kingdom when Jesus Christ invites them to. They will revive the nations.

Their descendants won’t all become believers, but the Bible is very clear that no unbelievers will be allowed to enter the kingdom.

There are already saved people from every nation, tribe and tongue...we are the people that will see the tribulation...but will get saved from God’s wrath.

Still hung up on the nations being ruled by Jesus with an iron rod...if their descendants won’t all become believer...than do they have to start off with descendants of believers?

Lisa, all your confusion would go away if you accepted the pretrib view.

I can’t accept pre trib..and some of the ‘evidence’ for pre trib like John being called into heaven also being seen as the church being there..I just can’t accept that. I also can’t accept it when we are point blank told that the rapture won’t happen until after the anti is revealed..and he’s not revealed until 3.5 years into the trib...I don’t see how you can see otherwise, honestly. So you are there for 3.5 year. Then there’s the verse that talks about the dead in Christ rise first and we who are alive meet Jesus in the air. That’s pretty specific. If the relatives of Christians who you say make up the nation..if they are Christians then don’t they go too? That leaves only unbelievers on the earth..and the Jewish believers. The unbelieving nations that is.

 

[Thunderian]

Lisa, whatever your problems are with the definition of nations and what rod of iron means, the biggest problem with your view is always going to be the sheep and goats judgement in Matthew 25. No unbelievers are left alive after that, so how can any of them enter the kingdom?

 

[Lisa]

Lisa, whatever your problems are with the definition of nations and what rod of iron means, the biggest problem with your view is always going to be the sheep and goats judgement in Matthew 25. No unbelievers are left alive after that, so how can any of them enter the kingdom?

Isn’t this about the white throne judgement though? No one gets thrown into it until after the millennium.

Matthew‬ ‭25:41‬ ‭
Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels | New American Standard Bible (NASB) | Download The Bible App Now

“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

www.bible.com

 

[Thunderian]

Isn’t this about the white throne judgement though?

No, this is the judgement that takes place at Jesus Christ’s second coming.

31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Right there it says that all nations will be gathered, and he will divide believers from unbelievers. Do you still say that nations are made up only of unbelievers?