BTS discussion thread

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Guys, I just learned something. If celebrities do something wrong they are either killed and replaced with a clone or they get locked up while the clone covers for them. So, what if this isn't the real BTS? What if these are just some souless clones? No wonder they look dead inside.
Plus, I feel like it is physically impossible for me to try and listen to dynamite and watch the music video. I want to get some symbolism, but everytime I play it I cringe all the way to jupiter. Its always sends an uncomfortable feeling down my spine.o_O
 

Fujiko

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Joined
Aug 20, 2020
Messages
1,063
at 0:29 I dislike it so much it just gives me weird vibes like it sounds like their summoning the devil. And there’s taehyung and Jungkook doing the one eye symbol behind Jin :D
Maybe i tell a stupid things but listening the song and watching the video reversed are there more possibilities to find hints about these idols and their secrets?Because it was so weird watching this...masons loves to uses the "as above so belove" so maybe in a reversed way there are more hints or the mind could understand more...reversed inteeviews,dance pratcice ..i repeat it is a personal opinion maybe i said a dumb thing lol
 

Honey

Established
Joined
Aug 7, 2020
Messages
104
Guys i've read so many of you saying you had dreams of bts, i personally never dream of them whether its good or bad, but guess what? Today i saw bts rm in my dream.! In my dream i was trying to expose BTS and RM was like No, he said no matter how people try to expose them they will never let it happen and they are Alert and doing Their best to hide everything and said no one will be successfully expose them, which is kinda true cause these days bts exposing videos are being deleted also in my dream he appeared that he is Their (BTS) handler and cult leader and he said he initiated TaE and made him evil and brainwashed to believe this satanic Things are okay , which is kinda true cause in a old video of them where rm said he convinced bango to select tae as an idol, this the First time i saw a dream like that and idk what to think about it lol
 

REEM

Rookie
Joined
Sep 6, 2020
Messages
17
Hi everyone! New here in VC forums but have been an avid reader for over a decade - recently became an obsessed ARMY when first exposed to Dynamite (just because it was trending and I thought why not), and discovered the plethora of videos available around them (Bangtan Universe, I gather?). Got really drawn into their personalities and humour/interactions and hadn't actually thought to watch their MVs until a friend of mine told me Blood Sweat and Tears was their best era and to check it out.
The moment the video began I felt so uncomfortable (and I guess everything I was familiar with from trawling VC came rushing to my mind and it went into serious symbol-spotting mode) and knew they probably weren't as cheery or innocent behind the scenes.
To be honest, my Kpop fangirling days were coming to an end shortly before BTS debuted, because I had just commenced a job with incredibly long hours and just didn't have the time to invest. I assumed they were just another rookie band which would last a few more years in the cutthroat idol industry but when I started hearing and seeing things about how big they were getting, it was a little suspicious - maybe because of the magnitude and the speed..?

Anyway, I immediately started checking out their other MVs and noticed all the symbolism that really didn't sit well at all within me. (I think the second one was Idol - the multiple gaudy-toned clones made me feel nauseous). Aside from the fact that BTS is insanely popular, I can also understand how this thread has been able to thrive for so long, with all that material filled with stuff to dissect. A part of me wishes I could have participated much earlier, but I think at the same time it is very sad - for an ARMY especially - to see what they are descending to.

I am thankfully no longer addicted (it was a short couple of weeks), but I guess still keen to follow on here. Thanks so much for all your insights! Hope to be able to contribute too.

Sorry I don't know how to quote a full post properly - but this is in relation to BTS members having a stake in the company's shareholdings:
then they are not just a bunch of puppet as some of us thought.

I can not understand these guys. Sadly, this means that they want to go higher and higher in the "industry".
I wouldn't be so quick to discard the idea that they are no longer puppets/were puppets to begin with.
With their stake in BigHit, Bang has cleverly made them directly responsible and accountable for the company's profits. BigHit rides on BTS' $$$ so if they are unsuccessful, the members' individual networth in shares will drop too.
I'm afraid this is to keep pushing them to go on to scale higher heights of success - this seals them in real deep and it's very frightening.

On the surface, it could just be things like avoiding scandals (romantic/car accidents/being rude/offending fans in some way), but behind the scenes, it could mean more sacrifice (in the literal sense!!) and slavery to Bang Si Hyuk/the mega powerful people who back him up.

I feel so sad thinking about it - they've even postponed Jin's army enlistment date. It would be great news for majority of ARMY fans, but what does this actually mean? To have achieved this outcome, months of admin/debilitation/negotiation would have been involved. This was all timed to coincide with their IPO listing because they knew they would need BTS to keep the $$$ rolling in. It would have been too risky to have one leave. I don't know how Jin feels about that tbh (maybe actual army would have been a way of escape from the toxic environment right now, and seriously he would be well past the legal requirement by then for the deadline to enrol - it’s a big deal to have gotten this delay in S. Korea as I understand they are very strict re national service) but he isn't looking too happy these days, other things might be going on, who knows. It just seems the company is really stretching them and making sure they know who is the true boss controlling everything.

Sorry for the long first post, thanks for putting up with it!
 
Last edited:

Openso15t

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Joined
Aug 14, 2020
Messages
83
What is cloning ?
Cloning is the process of taking genetic information from one living entity and creating identical copies of it, known as clones.

There are 3 different types of artificial cloning.

Gene cloning, also called DNA cloning, creates copies of genes, or segments of DNA.
Therapeutic cloning creates embryonic stem cells. Which are used to create tissues that can repair or replace damaged tissues.
And reproductive cloning which produces copies of whole animals. It is the most controversial type of cloning.


Cloning involves, isolating the nucleus from the cell of an organism that is to be cloned. The nucleus, which contains genetic information, is then put into an egg of a related host. The egg cell is stimulated in the laboratory to initiate cell division. Leading to the formation of an embryo and possibly into an adult organism with a genome identical to the original species. While cloning a human is currently illegal in most parts of the world. Cloning stem cells from humans is a very promising field of research. Stem cells can be reprogrammed to become any type of cell in the body. These cells can then be used to repair or replace damaged tissues. Gene cloning is useful in studying the structure and function of genes in detail. Cloned bacteria are used in the synthesis of vitamins, hormones and antibiotics.


Cloning can be used to build populations of endangered or possibly even extinct species of animals. Reproductive cloning could help sterile couples to fulfill their dream of parenthood. It can also be a way to avoid passing on a deleterious (harmful) gene that runs in the family without having to undergo embryo screening or embryo selection. Gene cloning is largely accepted and routinely used in many labs worldwide. However, both reproductive and therapeutic cloning raise important ethical issues. Especially those related to the potential use of these techniques in humans. Reproductive cloning can potentially create a human that is genetically identical to another person. This may conflict with long standing religious and societal values about human dignity possibly infringing upon principals of individual freedom, identity and autonomy.
 

mimis

Established
Joined
Jul 27, 2018
Messages
499
Hi everyone! I hope you are all doing well! I stumbled accross something very bothering to me and I decided to share it with you. Apperantly in Korea spy cams are very popular. It is extremely dangerous to be in hotels, motels, bathrooms or dressing rooms as there could be hidden cameras from perverts wanting to record you and blackmail you or sell footages of you in p*rn sites. This sick business is growing very fast. People's desires are getting more and more twisted and It's very serious topic that needs to be discussed in the society, as it can destroy someone's life! And I know in Korea it's like an unwritten rule to not speak up if you are being exploited or sexually harrased but that doesn't make things any easier or better for the victims of these crimes. I remember someone in the thread here said that even bts' managers and stuff exploit them and place hidden cams in their rooms. They threaten them with the videos if they don't obey and this might be the case with any kpop group or idol and also that can be one reason why idols are so upset and have suicidal thoughts. I believe this is a serious issue! Imagine this Bigshit global audition, which can be an easy way to traffic children and invade their privacy by filming them with hidden cameras whenever they go to the bathroom or when they are in their dorms that the company provides. To the sick pedos that are in power children are gold. They can earn them hundreds of thousands of dollars from the dark web with only one video... It's sickening! And it can all easily be legalised with the contracts these (usually) underage kids sign to be in a company. It's like in Big Brother - in exchange for some money you give your consent to the producers to invade your privacy and do whatever they want with you. Make you dress like a pig, make you kiss someone, sleep with someone, do all kinds of crazy shit. It's all a puppet show! But people buy into it because it's entertainmant and Roman leaders said it long time ago - "Give people bread and circuses"... unfortunately we still live by that rule!!!
P.S. If anyone of you wants to visit Korea in the future, please consider taking 'hidden camera detector' with you or diy one with a piece of red cellophane you can put over your phone's flashlight and look around for hidden cameras in any restroom you go to or just the place where you are staying there! Usually foreigners are more likely to become victims of these crimes in Korea, so be careful and God bless you <3!
 

singularitaes

Rookie
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Messages
27
Guys, I just learned something. If celebrities do something wrong they are either killed and replaced with a clone or they get locked up while the clone covers for them. So, what if this isn't the real BTS? What if these are just some souless clones? No wonder they look dead inside.
Plus, I feel like it is physically impossible for me to try and listen to dynamite and watch the music video. I want to get some symbolism, but everytime I play it I cringe all the way to jupiter. Its always sends an uncomfortable feeling down my spine.o_O
I found you on Youtube! J D's comment section. Wow the world is indeed small haha

By the way, I know I don't post here at all, but I'm always reading and liking most of your comments and analysis. I hope everyone is okay
 

Honey

Established
Joined
Aug 7, 2020
Messages
104
Hi everyone! I hope you are all doing well! I stumbled accross something very bothering to me and I decided to share it with you. Apperantly in Korea spy cams are very popular. It is extremely dangerous to be in hotels, motels, bathrooms or dressing rooms as there could be hidden cameras from perverts wanting to record you and blackmail you or sell footages of you in p*rn sites. This sick business is growing very fast. People's desires are getting more and more twisted and It's very serious topic that needs to be discussed in the society, as it can destroy someone's life! And I know in Korea it's like an unwritten rule to not speak up if you are being exploited or sexually harrased but that doesn't make things any easier or better for the victims of these crimes. I remember someone in the thread here said that even bts' managers and stuff exploit them and place hidden cams in their rooms. They threaten them with the videos if they don't obey and this might be the case with any kpop group or idol and also that can be one reason why idols are so upset and have suicidal thoughts. I believe this is a serious issue! Imagine this Bigshit global audition, which can be an easy way to traffic children and invade their privacy by filming them with hidden cameras whenever they go to the bathroom or when they are in their dorms that the company provides. To the sick pedos that are in power children are gold. They can earn them hundreds of thousands of dollars from the dark web with only one video... It's sickening! And it can all easily be legalised with the contracts these (usually) underage kids sign to be in a company. It's like in Big Brother - in exchange for some money you give your consent to the producers to invade your privacy and do whatever they want with you. Make you dress like a pig, make you kiss someone, sleep with someone, do all kinds of crazy shit. It's all a puppet show! But people buy into it because it's entertainmant and Roman leaders said it long time ago - "Give people bread and circuses"... unfortunately we still live by that rule!!!
P.S. If anyone of you wants to visit Korea in the future, please consider taking 'hidden camera detector' with you or diy one with a piece of red cellophane you can put over your phone's flashlight and look around for hidden cameras in any restroom you go to or just the place where you are staying there! Usually foreigners are more likely to become victims of these crimes in Korea, so be careful and God bless you <3!
This is pathetic and horrible, korean gov is sick, im sure they know about it but Won't do nothing, also about filming kpop Artist this is so legit and obvious, they legit film them 24/7 its disgusting, i remember once Beeteeass V said " he wants to live one day with the members without the cameras" now i know why he said that, why are these ceos so money hungry and evil i can not fathom, all these evil things for what just to make money!! They sell these clips also blackmail them too no one should even think about being a k-pop artist
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
1,043
I found you on Youtube! J D's comment section. Wow the world is indeed small haha

By the way, I know I don't post here at all, but I'm always reading and liking most of your comments and analysis. I hope everyone is okay
Oh, yay you found me! I'm very glad you like my posts and comments. Even tho most of them are useless I'm still glad you like them. Sending lots of hugs to you :)
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
1,043
Hi everyone! I hope you are all doing well! I stumbled accross something very bothering to me and I decided to share it with you. Apperantly in Korea spy cams are very popular. It is extremely dangerous to be in hotels, motels, bathrooms or dressing rooms as there could be hidden cameras from perverts wanting to record you and blackmail you or sell footages of you in p*rn sites. This sick business is growing very fast. People's desires are getting more and more twisted and It's very serious topic that needs to be discussed in the society, as it can destroy someone's life! And I know in Korea it's like an unwritten rule to not speak up if you are being exploited or sexually harrased but that doesn't make things any easier or better for the victims of these crimes. I remember someone in the thread here said that even bts' managers and stuff exploit them and place hidden cams in their rooms. They threaten them with the videos if they don't obey and this might be the case with any kpop group or idol and also that can be one reason why idols are so upset and have suicidal thoughts. I believe this is a serious issue! Imagine this Bigshit global audition, which can be an easy way to traffic children and invade their privacy by filming them with hidden cameras whenever they go to the bathroom or when they are in their dorms that the company provides. To the sick pedos that are in power children are gold. They can earn them hundreds of thousands of dollars from the dark web with only one video... It's sickening! And it can all easily be legalised with the contracts these (usually) underage kids sign to be in a company. It's like in Big Brother - in exchange for some money you give your consent to the producers to invade your privacy and do whatever they want with you. Make you dress like a pig, make you kiss someone, sleep with someone, do all kinds of crazy shit. It's all a puppet show! But people buy into it because it's entertainmant and Roman leaders said it long time ago - "Give people bread and circuses"... unfortunately we still live by that rule!!!
P.S. If anyone of you wants to visit Korea in the future, please consider taking 'hidden camera detector' with you or diy one with a piece of red cellophane you can put over your phone's flashlight and look around for hidden cameras in any restroom you go to or just the place where you are staying there! Usually foreigners are more likely to become victims of these crimes in Korea, so be careful and God bless you <3!
Story time, y'all.

I go to gossip threads on the normal web also the deep web. I have come across some rather disturbing videos...Its truly scary there. I can't tell you links to the thread because its not available here. But there is this one thread where one user said that they could post sex footage of idols, knowing how sick people in the deep web, Majority voted yes. They posted A LOT OF FOOTAGE. I am not even joking. I didn't watch anything because I am very sensitive to porn. I didn't download any video because 1. thats gross 2. I don't want a virus 3. My storage.
 

Honey

Established
Joined
Aug 7, 2020
Messages
104
Story time, y'all.

I go to gossip threads on the normal web also the deep web. I have come across some rather disturbing videos...Its truly scary there. I can't tell you links to the thread because its not available here. But there is this one thread where one user said that they could post sex footage of idols, knowing how sick people in the deep web, Majority voted yes. They posted A LOT OF FOOTAGE. I am not even joking. I didn't watch anything because I am very sensitive to porn. I didn't download any video because 1. thats gross 2. I don't want a virus 3. My storage.
Story time, y'all.

I go to gossip threads on the normal web also the deep web. I have come across some rather disturbing videos...Its truly scary there. I can't tell you links to the thread because its not available here. But there is this one thread where one user said that they could post sex footage of idols, knowing how sick people in the deep web, Majority voted yes. They posted A LOT OF FOOTAGE. I am not even joking. I didn't watch anything because I am very sensitive to porn. I didn't download any video because 1. thats gross 2. I don't want a virus 3. My storage.
Omg this is so gross also it kinda makes me depressed how these idols are literally "a sex toy" sad sad sad, is that even a life !! Life as a puppet , i keep thinking how these idols feels?! Guess i'll never know,

Also i never go to webs cause i'm a soft hearted person i can't tolerate evil but as you said one person posted sex footage of idols now Imagine how many people actually has these other footage too, also i wonder who are these idols too in these Videos
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
1,043
Omg this is so gross also it kinda makes me depressed how these idols are literally "a sex toy" sad sad sad, is that even a life !! Life as a puppet , i keep thinking how these idols feels?! Guess i'll never know,

Also i never go to webs cause i'm a soft hearted person i can't tolerate evil but as you said one person posted sex footage of idols now Imagine how many people actually has these other footage too, also i wonder who are these idols too in these Videos
Yes. Its not even good to go there. So much gore, child porn, hit-man hiring services, human cookbooks, red rooms, very very weird and disturbing threads and I can go on. I don't even want to find out who these idols are. Just by seeing the low quality thumbnails of these videos I am scarred. I feel like I had committed a crime :(
 
Joined
Apr 16, 2020
Messages
1,083
Hol
Yes. Its not even good to go there. So much gore, child porn, hit-man hiring services, human cookbooks, red rooms, very very weird and disturbing threads and I can go on. I don't even want to find out who these idols are. Just by seeing the low quality thumbnails of these videos I am scarred. I feel like I had committed a crime :(
Holy frikken cow how the heck did u end up being on the dark web. I honestly cant imagine being on it. The things ppl have posted about what they have seen keeps me up at night. Weird to think that kpop idols actual sex videos are on there
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
1,043
Hol
Holy frikken cow how the heck did u end up being on the dark web. I honestly cant imagine being on it. The things ppl have posted about what they have seen keeps me up at night. Weird to think that kpop idols actual sex videos are on there
I was curious. And the gossip threads on the normal web are getting shut down because of annoying fans so...
 

REEM

Rookie
Joined
Sep 6, 2020
Messages
17
Hi everyone! New here in VC forums but have been an avid reader for over a decade - recently became an obsessed ARMY when first exposed to Dynamite (just because it was trending and I thought why not), and discovered the plethora of videos available around them (Bangtan Universe, I gather?). Got really drawn into their personalities and humour/interactions and hadn't actually thought to watch their MVs until a friend of mine told me Blood Sweat and Tears was their best era and to check it out.
The moment the video began I felt so uncomfortable (and I guess everything I was familiar with from trawling VC came rushing to my mind and it went into serious symbol-spotting mode) and knew they probably weren't as cheery or innocent behind the scenes.
To be honest, my Kpop fangirling days were coming to an end shortly before BTS debuted, because I had just commenced a job with incredibly long hours and just didn't have the time to invest. I assumed they were just another rookie band which would last a few more years in the cutthroat idol industry but when I started hearing and seeing things about how big they were getting, it was a little suspicious - maybe because of the magnitude and the speed..?

Anyway, I immediately started checking out their other MVs and noticed all the symbolism that really didn't sit well at all within me. (I think the second one was Idol - the multiple gaudy-toned clones made me feel nauseous). Aside from the fact that BTS is insanely popular, I can also understand how this thread has been able to thrive for so long, with all that material filled with stuff to dissect. A part of me wishes I could have participated much earlier, but I think at the same time it is very sad - for an ARMY especially - to see what they are descending to.

I am thankfully no longer addicted (it was a short couple of weeks), but I guess still keen to follow on here. Thanks so much for all your insights! Hope to be able to contribute too.

Sorry I don't know how to quote a full post properly - but this is in relation to BTS members having a stake in the company's shareholdings:
then they are not just a bunch of puppet as some of us thought.

I can not understand these guys. Sadly, this means that they want to go higher and higher in the "industry".
I wouldn't be so quick to discard the idea that they are no longer puppets/were puppets to begin with.
With their stake in BigHit, Bang has cleverly made them directly responsible and accountable for the company's profits. BigHit rides on BTS' $$$ so if they are unsuccessful, the members' individual networth in shares will drop too.
I'm afraid this is to keep pushing them to go on to scale higher heights of success - this seals them in real deep and it's very frightening.

On the surface, it could just be things like avoiding scandals (romantic/car accidents/being rude/offending fans in some way), but behind the scenes, it could mean more sacrifice (in the literal sense!!) and slavery to Bang Si Hyuk/the mega powerful people who back him up.

I feel so sad thinking about it - they've even postponed Jin's army enlistment date. It would be great news for majority of ARMY fans, but what does this actually mean? To have achieved this outcome, months of admin/debilitation/negotiation would have been involved. This was all timed to coincide with their IPO listing because they knew they would need BTS to keep the $$$ rolling in. It would have been too risky to have one leave. I don't know how Jin feels about that tbh (maybe actual army would have been a way of escape from the toxic environment right now, and seriously he would be well past the legal requirement by then for the deadline to enrol - it’s a big deal to have gotten this delay in S. Korea as I understand they are very strict re national service) but he isn't looking too happy these days, other things might be going on, who knows. It just seems the company is really stretching them and making sure they know who is the true boss controlling everything.

Sorry for the long first post, thanks for putting up with it!
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
1,043
\\
Hi everyone! New here in VC forums but have been an avid reader for over a decade - recently became an obsessed ARMY when first exposed to Dynamite (just because it was trending and I thought why not), and discovered the plethora of videos available around them (Bangtan Universe, I gather?). Got really drawn into their personalities and humour/interactions and hadn't actually thought to watch their MVs until a friend of mine told me Blood Sweat and Tears was their best era and to check it out.
The moment the video began I felt so uncomfortable (and I guess everything I was familiar with from trawling VC came rushing to my mind and it went into serious symbol-spotting mode) and knew they probably weren't as cheery or innocent behind the scenes.
To be honest, my Kpop fangirling days were coming to an end shortly before BTS debuted, because I had just commenced a job with incredibly long hours and just didn't have the time to invest. I assumed they were just another rookie band which would last a few more years in the cutthroat idol industry but when I started hearing and seeing things about how big they were getting, it was a little suspicious - maybe because of the magnitude and the speed..?

Anyway, I immediately started checking out their other MVs and noticed all the symbolism that really didn't sit well at all within me. (I think the second one was Idol - the multiple gaudy-toned clones made me feel nauseous). Aside from the fact that BTS is insanely popular, I can also understand how this thread has been able to thrive for so long, with all that material filled with stuff to dissect. A part of me wishes I could have participated much earlier, but I think at the same time it is very sad - for an ARMY especially - to see what they are descending to.

I am thankfully no longer addicted (it was a short couple of weeks), but I guess still keen to follow on here. Thanks so much for all your insights! Hope to be able to contribute too.

Sorry I don't know how to quote a full post properly - but this is in relation to BTS members having a stake in the company's shareholdings:


I wouldn't be so quick to discard the idea that they are no longer puppets/were puppets to begin with.
With their stake in BigHit, Bang has cleverly made them directly responsible and accountable for the company's profits. BigHit rides on BTS' $$$ so if they are unsuccessful, the members' individual networth in shares will drop too.
I'm afraid this is to keep pushing them to go on to scale higher heights of success - this seals them in real deep and it's very frightening.

On the surface, it could just be things like avoiding scandals (romantic/car accidents/being rude/offending fans in some way), but behind the scenes, it could mean more sacrifice (in the literal sense!!) and slavery to Bang Si Hyuk/the mega powerful people who back him up.

I feel so sad thinking about it - they've even postponed Jin's army enlistment date. It would be great news for majority of ARMY fans, but what does this actually mean? To have achieved this outcome, months of admin/debilitation/negotiation would have been involved. This was all timed to coincide with their IPO listing because they knew they would need BTS to keep the $$$ rolling in. It would have been too risky to have one leave. I don't know how Jin feels about that tbh (maybe actual army would have been a way of escape from the toxic environment right now, and seriously he would be well past the legal requirement by then for the deadline to enrol - it’s a big deal to have gotten this delay in S. Korea as I understand they are very strict re national service) but he isn't looking too happy these days, other things might be going on, who knows. It just seems the company is really stretching them and making sure they know who is the true boss controlling everything.

Sorry for the long first post, thanks for putting up with it!
Ello, beautiful human! I hope we can become friends and I hope you enjoy your stay here. You already sound interesting~
 

Fujiko

Star
Joined
Aug 20, 2020
Messages
1,063
I think I would be crazy if I surf the deep, I am very sensitive sensitive to everything, I got into trouble last week just with the information here on the forum, if I look at such things that deep offers, my level of normality evaporated.
One year ago i went to deep web because i was curious after watching a video on youtube...disgusting ....really i was shocked for the contents....i never visited the deep web
 

REEM

Rookie
Joined
Sep 6, 2020
Messages
17
Ello, beautiful human! I hope we can become friends and I hope you enjoy your stay here. You already sound interesting~
You are so sweet somewhat_yuna! Thank you :) Looking forward to it all ~

On the topic of the deep web, like a lot here I have to say I felt sick from just reading about what others have seen. The average person would not be able to comprehend the depravity of how sinful human behaviour can get. Because of this extremity, I think that's why things get written off as ridiculous/nonsense (such as so-called conspiracy theories). I contradict myself even as I utter "I can't believe they would do that to kpop idols". It makes the Burning Sun scandal seem so 'normal' in comparison (but BOTH are disgusting...I haven't taken time to ponder any links there might be though). :((((

Were those recent/current threads you had come across?
 
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