Only Atheists can be truly moral

threepwood

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Hi Lisa,

the law is the law. There is no escape to that. It teaches us, whats right and whats wrong. Well.. the last part very much depends on the law. But technically, its still true.

Kind regards,
threepwood
 

shankara

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In what you’re saying empathy helps you not see the morality of it all and go by feelings...poor thing you suffered..well then I understand why you did that. You have to stop moralizing that they did wrong.

People can overcome the environment they were raised in..and many have..so that’s a cop out issue you’ve brought up.

Compassion is good..but so is morality..judging right from wrong. Without that you have emotional babies who commit lawlessness just because...
Well of course there is negativity, and we should not shy away from saying that negative things are negative. But empathy keeps us from doing negative things, those things which harm our fellow beings, not because anyone tells us not to but because we recognize that such acts and ways of living cause suffering to others. When we empathize with others, we naturally don't want them to suffer, and so we don't do things which make them suffer. It's perhaps possible to be moral just by cultivating such a feeling, it's a good guide.

There is also the notion that we should not hate those who have done wrong. We may hate what they do, but that doesn't mean we hate the person. Christ puts it quite clearly - "judge not lest ye be judged".
 

Lyfe

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...when will we humble ourselves and admit that we arent as good as we claim to be? If you ask anyone they will tell you they are a good person, yet in a society of so many self professed good people how can so much evil and injustice persist? How can the hip hop industry and all the wickedness it promotes exist in a society of so many good people? How can such an entertainment industry exist? Why is 42 million aborted babies an acceptable and tolerated thing? We deceive ourselves by thinking we are good, because true goodness would not be idle or indifferent to such evils. True goodness would not tolerate these things. It wouldn't be indifferent. It would be grieved and heartbroken over everything that this culture has come to embrace. The typical day in my life used to consist of gangster rap and violent video games, yet I considered myself a moral person. I had deceived myself, because how can someone who is truly moral be indifferent to music that glorifies the prostitution of women, drugs, and murder? How could I as a good person be so numb and callous to movies and video games that repeatedly bombard my senses with people having their limbs blown off or having their head ripped open by an m16 as blood gushes out of their skull? God grieves and is heartbroken over these things, yet we as people lust after and cant get enough of these entertainments. How can we claim to be good yet be so indifferent to these things? If someone thinks that this is a moral culture then they are proud and deceives themselves...
 

Lisa

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When we empathize with others, we naturally don't want them to suffer, and so we don't do things which make them suffer. It's perhaps possible to be moral just by cultivating such a feeling, it's a good guide.
You’re ignoring that morality is about good and bad not about empathizing with people. You can empathize with someone and still think what they did was wrong. Like if they murder someone...steal from someone, lie to someone. Someones past doesn’t negate their wrong actions and make them innocent. I can want someone to go to jail for wrong doing..that’s moral.

Empathizing and not wanting people to suffer isn’t morality. Lyge gave a good post above this...you should read It.
 

shankara

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You’re ignoring that morality is about good and bad not about empathizing with people. You can empathize with someone and still think what they did was wrong. Like if they murder someone...steal from someone, lie to someone. Someones past doesn’t negate their wrong actions and make them innocent. I can want someone to go to jail for wrong doing..that’s moral.

Empathizing and not wanting people to suffer isn’t morality. Lyge gave a good post above this...you should read It.
You are failing to comprehend my point. Would a person kill someone if they felt genuine empathy for that person? Clearly not, and therefore empathy can be the basis for making a moral decision without any kind of external compulsion such as a "Divine Command". It may be that in some cases empathy would include the notion that the person has to undergo some process of transformation, which may involve suffering for them, because putting yourself in their position you see that such a thing is necessary for them and will ultimately lead to some kind of redemption. But that is not the same thing as hating the person and being vengeful towards them.
 

Lisa

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You are failing to comprehend my point. Would a person kill someone if they felt genuine empathy for that person? Clearly not, and therefore empathy can be the basis for making a moral decision without any kind of external compulsion such as a "Divine Command". It may be that in some cases empathy would include the notion that the person has to undergo some process of transformation, which may involve suffering for them, because putting yourself in their position you see that such a thing is necessary for them and will ultimately lead to some kind of redemption. But that is not the same thing as hating the person and being vengeful towards them.
Who are you to know what is best for someone else?
 

Lisa

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We are born with a moral compass

Yep!
Romans‬ ‭2:14-15‬ ‭
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.
 
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We are born with a moral compass

Interesting article. I thought these two statements were poignant:

"When it comes to personal relationships, empathy can be a good thing—I wouldn’t want a parent, a child, or a spouse who lacked empathy." and "Our moral judgements and moral actions are driven mostly by gut feelings—rational thought has little to do with it."

Also, this picture always makes me smile and it seems to correlate with the article that compassion in (healthy) babies is innate:

 

shankara

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Who are you to know what is best for someone else?
Well I'm not saying my own empathy and compassion are fully or even highly developed. But somebody truly capable of understanding the experience of others would develop a somewhat clear view on what would likely be best for them. In any case beginning from such a standpoint would be much more human than beginning from the basis of vengeance and wanting to inflict suffering without regard for whether such suffering serves any purpose.
 

shankara

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Who are you to know what is best for someone else?
Anyway, on another note, I think you missed the point of what I was saying, that if a person acts with empathy they generally act in ways which aren't harmful to others (or themselves) which is a major element if not the defining feature of morality or ethics. It might be that in some cases what we label to be empathy isn't true empathy and it requires some cognitive notions about right and wrong to inform our way of feeling. But in general to "follow the heart" is often the right path.
 
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Yet in the next instant take the others toy or hit them ..
Actually, I've watched the video clip and they're doing nothing of the sort. That's not to say babies won't hit each other but in this instance, they're embracing each other without any coaxing or instigating from anyone in the room.

It's unfortunate for you that your glass on this issue appears to be ½ empty.
 

Lisa

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Well I'm not saying my own empathy and compassion are fully or even highly developed. But somebody truly capable of understanding the experience of others would develop a somewhat clear view on what would likely be best for them. In any case beginning from such a standpoint would be much more human than beginning from the basis of vengeance and wanting to inflict suffering without regard for whether such suffering serves any purpose.
Right...well having a moral compass i.e. knowing right from wrong is better than empathy where feelings are often wrong.

You could just as soon get mad at the person you empathized with because they did something against you...and there goes the good thoughts towards them.
 

illuminatimess

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Right...well having a moral compass i.e. knowing right from wrong is better than empathy where feelings are often wrong.

You could just as soon get mad at the person you empathized with because they did something against you...and there goes the good thoughts towards them.
But empathy is a part of moral compass?
 

Lisa

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But their actions are not based on hatred or envy. Contrary, adults always act based on some of these or similar motives.
What are their actions based on then?



Actually, I've watched the video clip and they're doing nothing of the sort. That's not to say babies won't hit each other but in this instance, they're embracing each other without any coaxing or instigating from anyone in the room.

It's unfortunate for you that your glass on this issue appears to be ½ empty.
I didn’t watch the video clip...but I know kids and they will be sweet and nice one minute and hitting and taking others stuff the next. Depending on the mood.

It’s not a half empty belief but common sense..and I’ve been a mom;)
 
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I didn’t watch the video clip...but I know kids and they will be sweet and nice one minute and hitting and taking others stuff the next. Depending on the mood.

It’s not a half empty belief but common sense..and I’ve been a mom;)
Perhaps you missed the part when I said, "That's not to say babies won't hit each other"? And I figured that out without being a mum - fancy that, eh? :D

Anyway, you appear wanting to be right rather than wanting a further understanding of what empathy is.

Good luck in trying to understand it.
 

shankara

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Right...well having a moral compass i.e. knowing right from wrong is better than empathy where feelings are often wrong.

You could just as soon get mad at the person you empathized with because they did something against you...and there goes the good thoughts towards them.
Well empathy is something we have to cultivate, and it has to become something conscious and aware in order to be compassion and avoid straying into mere sentiment. Of course in Buddhism we seek to overcome negative emotions, in order to avoid anger and delusion clouding our judgement. Feelings, especially if we don't consciously cultivate compassion, are of course sometimes incorrect. But in this case we could say there is a failure of genuine empathy, its replacement with a feeling which we label "empathy" which in fact is not. We may have some notions about right and wrong which correspond more or less with acts which are actually positive or negative, however only seeing from the other's perspective allows us to appreciate the actual complexity of things.
 
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