TagliatelliMonster
Established
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2019
- Messages
- 145
At what point does the lack of evidence become sufficient to conclude non-existence?
So, for example, we probably agree that pink unicorns do not exist. Why? Because there is no evidence that they do. Is it possible we missed something? Of course! Maybe, just maybe, there is a distant planet on which pink unicorns play all day. But if I had to place a bet, my bet would be that there isn't.
And again, is this lack of belief in unicorns based on faith or on reason? I hope you will agree it is NOT faith based, but reason based. So, what is the reason?
Well, pink unicorns would be large animals and, even if rare, would be fairly easy to spot. We know that people like to tell stories about them, elaborating to make the story nicer for the kids. And we realize after a certain age that, along with Santa Claus, pink unicorns are a myth--a story we tell ourselves to make life more interesting.
Now we turn to the issue of Gods. I'll stick to the Abrahamic God since that seems to be the only one you recognize. The only 'evidence' for this is based on a book that was clearly written for its propaganda value. We have many 'personal experiences', but all are preceded by psychological techniques that we *know* can lead to false perceptions. The main value is in the stories that are used to give meaning to life. One difference is that people don't tend to grow out of believing in this myth, but get really upset when others point out it is a myth not too different than many other myths of deities from around the world.
Truthfully, except that people don't tend to grow out of God belief because it is deep in our society, I don't see much difference. So it seems to me to be reasonable to disbelieve in God in exactly the same way and to the same extent I disbelieve in unicorns. Either way, I could be wrong, but the evidence simply isn't enough to support belief.
Let's go through the KCA:
1. Everything that has a beginning has a cause.
This is false. We *know* of quantum events that are uncaused. Also, the proper statement is something along the lines of 'everything that has a cause has a physical cause'. In other words, all causes are within the universe.
2. The universe had a beginning.
This is also probably false, but it depends on exactly what you consider to be 'the universe'. For example, if our universe is part of a larger multiverse, we should apply the argument to the multiverse and not just our universe.
So, while our universe may not have existed for an infinite amount of time, it is possible that a multiverse has. In which case, your argument fails.
But, if there is no multiverse and the universe is not infinitely old, does *that* imply it had a beginning? I would say not.
Here's why: time is part of the universe. And 'to have a beginning' implies there is a *time* when it did not exist, and a later time in which it did. But, because time is part of the universe, the universe has existed whenever there was time. So it cannot have 'had a beginning'. More specifically, time cannot have had a beginning, even if it is finite.
3. So, the universe had a cause.
Well, this would follow if the previous two steps were valid, but the evidence we have shows them not to be. Even basic logic shows them not to be.
But we can go further. Even if everything within the universe has a cause, that doesn't mean the universe as a whole has a cause, even if it has a beginning. For example, there is nothing said in this about the possibility of multiple causes for different aspects of the universe. Or multiple causes for the universe as a whole. In fact, most events within the universe have multiple causes, so why assume that the universe only has one?
4. That cause must be God.
Once again, a very faulty premise, which essentially assumes the conclusion. Why must the cause be God? Why must it be an intelligent being? Why not an uncaused quantum event? Why not a committee of higher dimensional beings? Why not a collision in the multiverse that produced our universe with no intelligence involved?
So, even if the universe has a cause (unlikely because of the above), the identification of that cause, or even showing there is only *one* cause, is problematic.
Well, I don't feel the need to go further. The KCA fails at every major step.
So, for example, we probably agree that pink unicorns do not exist. Why? Because there is no evidence that they do. Is it possible we missed something? Of course! Maybe, just maybe, there is a distant planet on which pink unicorns play all day. But if I had to place a bet, my bet would be that there isn't.
And again, is this lack of belief in unicorns based on faith or on reason? I hope you will agree it is NOT faith based, but reason based. So, what is the reason?
Well, pink unicorns would be large animals and, even if rare, would be fairly easy to spot. We know that people like to tell stories about them, elaborating to make the story nicer for the kids. And we realize after a certain age that, along with Santa Claus, pink unicorns are a myth--a story we tell ourselves to make life more interesting.
Now we turn to the issue of Gods. I'll stick to the Abrahamic God since that seems to be the only one you recognize. The only 'evidence' for this is based on a book that was clearly written for its propaganda value. We have many 'personal experiences', but all are preceded by psychological techniques that we *know* can lead to false perceptions. The main value is in the stories that are used to give meaning to life. One difference is that people don't tend to grow out of believing in this myth, but get really upset when others point out it is a myth not too different than many other myths of deities from around the world.
Truthfully, except that people don't tend to grow out of God belief because it is deep in our society, I don't see much difference. So it seems to me to be reasonable to disbelieve in God in exactly the same way and to the same extent I disbelieve in unicorns. Either way, I could be wrong, but the evidence simply isn't enough to support belief.
Let's go through the KCA:
1. Everything that has a beginning has a cause.
This is false. We *know* of quantum events that are uncaused. Also, the proper statement is something along the lines of 'everything that has a cause has a physical cause'. In other words, all causes are within the universe.
2. The universe had a beginning.
This is also probably false, but it depends on exactly what you consider to be 'the universe'. For example, if our universe is part of a larger multiverse, we should apply the argument to the multiverse and not just our universe.
So, while our universe may not have existed for an infinite amount of time, it is possible that a multiverse has. In which case, your argument fails.
But, if there is no multiverse and the universe is not infinitely old, does *that* imply it had a beginning? I would say not.
Here's why: time is part of the universe. And 'to have a beginning' implies there is a *time* when it did not exist, and a later time in which it did. But, because time is part of the universe, the universe has existed whenever there was time. So it cannot have 'had a beginning'. More specifically, time cannot have had a beginning, even if it is finite.
3. So, the universe had a cause.
Well, this would follow if the previous two steps were valid, but the evidence we have shows them not to be. Even basic logic shows them not to be.
But we can go further. Even if everything within the universe has a cause, that doesn't mean the universe as a whole has a cause, even if it has a beginning. For example, there is nothing said in this about the possibility of multiple causes for different aspects of the universe. Or multiple causes for the universe as a whole. In fact, most events within the universe have multiple causes, so why assume that the universe only has one?
4. That cause must be God.
Once again, a very faulty premise, which essentially assumes the conclusion. Why must the cause be God? Why must it be an intelligent being? Why not an uncaused quantum event? Why not a committee of higher dimensional beings? Why not a collision in the multiverse that produced our universe with no intelligence involved?
So, even if the universe has a cause (unlikely because of the above), the identification of that cause, or even showing there is only *one* cause, is problematic.
Well, I don't feel the need to go further. The KCA fails at every major step.