"The muslim trinity"

manama

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ive made plenty of points in the debate,
You've done nothing.

No wonder you accept islam, learn to question regardless of your indoctrinated heirachies, or just keep listening to your imam and what he tells you to think.
I've actually questioned my religion, it is because of that I can withstand my ground here. You can't even tell us where Jesus told you to worship him. Get a grip.
 

Maes17

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To compare Muhammad against other famous philosophers, worldviews and religions, here is a great place to start.
And yes, they give every single reference for what Muslims will predictably claim are lies/ attempt to explain away. (Muslims, they are from your Islamic texts - If you do not believe them you are not a true Muslim).


And that’s why I tend to only look at God as the one true entity to worship.

I’m a western world born and raised chap. So the figure I grew up around religious wise is Jesus.

@infintyloop did had have a good point at saints being examples. Something I never really thought of.

As far my knowledge of the muslim religion. Reason being I don’t dive too much into religious discussions cause religion itself is someone’s belief and a code they live by. Whether it’s christianity, islam etc. I choose not to attack a persons beliefs if they are spreading positivity and devotion. Some people know how to spread that positivity and devotion into their communities and relationships.

That’s where I hold Jesus in high esteem is cause to put simply it’s about self respect, respect unto others. Have I been tested with temptation? Sure. My psycho neighbor being one who test my patience nearly weekly.

Anyways back to my my little knowledge on muslim beliefs. I do agree in the worship of a one entity. Allah/God. I cannot attack that.

Muhammed, like Jesus can spark controversial discussions, so I shy away from that.

From my understanding, muslims do not have religious statues within their worship as they feel it’s idol/false worship. Which is again, where I fall with my stance on shrines to saints etc.

- grey areas/counter arguments.
I collect funko pops for example. I don’t worship them lol. But I could see having a collection would offend a hardcore religious practioner.

So my outlook has been to try to understand Jesus’ words. And try to carry myself within that fashion.

To me, at the end of the day. It’s how you solidify your relationship with God that counts.
 

JoChris

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There are plenty of academic christians, we are not scholars, this is a conspiracy website, and frankly if you have what you believe is a scholarly knowledge that infinityloop claims they have, coming here to "debate" and flaunting all this "knowledge" is really like me going and playing football against children and thinking im a premier league player. So you are well read? It doesnt mean you are right, we've had some great posters here who would have wiped the floor with you - in terms of "academic arguments" In truth its all really not that complicated. But when you are twisting scripture to fit your perverse views I guess you have to bamboozle people by quoting how much you know. Dont know why you are expecting people to have the length of knowledge a scholar would have, knowing original texts etc, the vast majority don't it doesnt mean they dont understand theology and fundamental doctrines. BTW, most of us who have been here for the many incarnations of this forum have heard infinityloops "arguments" before, and the others, and Ive seen them be destroyed by posters like Recure, Daciple, Scar... and others. And apart from recure the rest weren't particularly versed in "philosophy and theology". Its getting kinda boring now anyway, Im not going to let muslims that jump into every positive thread get me to rise to them anymore, but lets not point the finger here, and say christians are hateful or attacking muslims, they come into nearly every thread particularly infinityloop who comes like a Jehova witness to evangelise everything antichristian in every thread, and keeps posting mocking religious memes, practice what you preach, when you're being a hyprocrite. peace.
Infinityloop rejected all references from academic scholars I gave in my earlier entries from months ago.

From YouTube Dr David Wood (Acts 17 ) could have been a lecturer in Philosophy but went into Christian apologetics instead.
Christian Prince is an expert in Islamic law.
Those two are experts. IL somehow knows better than them. IL wants to believe "Farid responds" instead- a young Muslim man who contradicts Muslim scholars and sees nothing wrong with child marriage if parents give their consent ONLY because he mocks/ pretends that CP lies.

Infinityloop (and other resident "muslims" here) made it more than clear that they reject all facts that support Christianity/ disprove Islam ON PRINCIPLE. I do not repond to fake Muslim fools now. It is way more interesting interacting with genuine Muslims who actually believe what true Islam teaches.
 
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Infinityloop rejected all references from academic scholars I gave in my earlier entries from months ago.
You've never given an academic source for anything you've ever asserted.

From YouTube Dr David Wood (Acts 17 ) could have been a lecturer in Philosophy but went into Christian apologetics instead.
This we all know would never be the case with a person like David Wood, who is just an entertainer by-definition. He doesn't have the knowledge, nor the personality to engage with any serious philosophy. David Wood has also never put out an academic paper, nor would his very slim level of topical engagement, research and analysis be well-receipted in the academic world.

but went into Christian apologetics instead.
The only place for people like him who are desperate for a following.

Christian Prince is an expert in Islamic law.
Evidence please?

Nobody with such babbling incoherence, bad arabic, reading disabilities and inability to debate could never have in the slightest knowledge on anything Islamic, let alone Law. As I've already said the guy is a troll who's job is to MOCK CHRISTIANS.

It shocks me that you openly support such sexual deviants though, but then you could easily be one yourself.

Those two are experts. IL somehow knows better than them. IL wants to believe "Farid responds" instead
JoChris wants us to accept baseless claims/assertions without evidence, and then like always she will flee from any response because JoChris like other self-claimed "Christians" here are merely parrots who WANT to hate Islam and will use anything to defend their hateful views, even if it requires diving into the bottom of a garbage truck.

Also, your mention of Farid is but a strawman and a genetic fallacy.
Strawman for pretending that I care about Farid and genetic fallacy for moving the goalposts to attacking Farid as a person rather than his refutations of your entirely stupid/dumb/childish allegations.

This is literally the level that JoChris is at, just schoolyard insults. Well done.

ONLY because he mocks/ pretends that CP lies.
There is a growing trend of refuting CP's stupidity for the fun on it, Farid's massive series is just one of the more popular ones.


Infinityloop (and other resident "muslims" here) made it more than clear that they reject all facts that support Christianity/ disprove Islam ON PRINCIPLE.
JoChris (and other resident "Christians" here) made it more than clear that they reject all facts that support Islam/ disprove Christianity ON PRINCIPLE.

I do not repond to fake Muslim fools now. It is way more interesting interacting with genuine Muslims who actually believe what true Islam teaches.
Aka, JoChris is scared of having to be forced into an intellectual conversation. Her methodology is to run away when she has an opponent who can stand their ground. JoChris prefers to have swearing matches with random people, rather than those of us who know both Islam and Christianity very well. When it comes down to it, just like her idols, JoChris is a shill and a troll. A Shill for pretending to be a Christian, and a troll for only being a person who hurls insults and tries to defame her chosen victim and literally only does that.
 
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Nah man, anyway I made the mistake of getting too caught up in this debate again, and letting it get heated.
You started the thread.

I think of God as personal, and all loving - Muslims tend to have this view of an emphasis beyond anything else God is ALL powerful and distant.
No, the two most referred to attributes that God is referred to is Compassion (Rahman) and Mercy (Rahim), which open both nearly every Surah in the Qur'an and open our own discourses often.
God is belong everything yes, that is the definition of God, yet God is also omnipresent and within everything.

"And certainly We created man, and We know what his mind suggests to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein." (Surah 50:16, Qur'an)

As another ayat says:

"And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way." (Surah 2:186)

A further three ayahs say:

"Surely the might of your Lord is great.
Surely He it is Who originates and reproduces,
And He is the Forgiving, the Loving"
(Surah 85:12-14)


Experiencing the love and closeness of God is very much the aim of the whole religion of Islam, the whole thing.

Islam is about submission to God
So is the Bible.

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)
"Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you." (James 4:10)

"Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world." (1 Peter 5:6-9)

which again represents this view of God as this being so beyond us

"Thus says the LORD: “Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest?" (Isaiah 66:1)


Like the way he doesnt really get involved in human affairs
The opposite, God has sent Prophets and Messengers since the beginning of humanity.

and I think he is loving to the point of loving the sinner
Are you saying that you are a universalist that believes that EVERYONE is going to heaven? if so you're gonna get into a few fights with the "Christians" on this forum.
 

Kung Fu

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You started the thread.



No, the two most referred to attributes that God is referred to is Compassion (Rahman) and Mercy (Rahim), which open both nearly every Surah in the Qur'an and open our own discourses often.
God is belong everything yes, that is the definition of God, yet God is also omnipresent and within everything.

"And certainly We created man, and We know what his mind suggests to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein." (Surah 50:16, Qur'an)

As another ayat says:

"And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way." (Surah 2:186)

A further three ayahs say:

"Surely the might of your Lord is great.
Surely He it is Who originates and reproduces,
And He is the Forgiving, the Loving"
(Surah 85:12-14)


Experiencing the love and closeness of God is very much the aim of the whole religion of Islam, the whole thing.



So is the Bible.

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)
"Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you." (James 4:10)

"Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world." (1 Peter 5:6-9)



"Thus says the LORD: “Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest?" (Isaiah 66:1)




The opposite, God has sent Prophets and Messengers since the beginning of humanity.



Are you saying that you are a universalist that believes that EVERYONE is going to heaven? if so you're gonna get into a few fights with the "Christians" on this forum.
This was really beautiful. Proving them wrong with their own scripture.

It's pretty evident by now that no matter what questions you ask them they'll never be able to provide an answer. If you're waiting for a response from JoChris well then you're out of luck. You'll probably receive an answer to your question sooner from a potato than you would from people like Floss and JoChris.
 

DavidSon

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It's amazing to witness truth unfolding. The followers of the Roman conception of Jesus are empty of the purity, intelligence, and humility of the One God (that Jesus worshiped). Instead of acknowledging the Master of us all, it burns them up inside that Islam are the true representatives of the Messiah and the God of Abraham. It's sad the Christian's foundation are the letters of Saul, instead of verses extolling the Almighty One:

He is too Great and too Mighty to seek any partners. Thus, none among what He creates opposes Him, nor is there any equal peer like Him from among His possessions, nor is there any partner in His Kingdom. He is the One, the Unique, the One sought by all, the Eternal, the Everlasting, the Lord of the cosmos Who has always been and shall always be, the eternally all alone before the beginning of time and after the end of all affairs. He will never terminate nor expire. Thus do I describe my Lord; there is no god except Allah; Great is He and how Great! Glorified is He and how Glorified! Almighty is He and how Almighty! He is far above what the unjust ones say about Him, far, far above that! - Ali ibn Abu Talib
 
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There are plenty of academic christians, we are not scholars, this is a conspiracy website, and frankly if you have what you believe is a scholarly knowledge that infinityloop claims they have, coming here to "debate" and flaunting all this "knowledge" is really like me going and playing football against children and thinking im a premier league player. So you are well read? It doesnt mean you are right
This is a classic example of shifting burden of proof, when you're making big, unsubstantiated claims/assertions against us without evidence. You get obliterated into the void again and again, yet all you have to say is "well just because you can argue in detail and convincingly doesn't mean Christianity is wrong", as if by saying that makes Christianity right - despite all the heavy evidence against it.

It doesnt mean you are right, we've had some great posters here who would have wiped the floor with you - in terms of "academic arguments" In truth its all really not that complicated. But when you are twisting scripture to fit your perverse views I guess you have to bamboozle people by quoting how much you know. Dont know why you are expecting people to have the length of knowledge a scholar would have, knowing original texts etc, the vast majority don't it doesnt mean they dont understand theology and fundamental doctrines.
So is this way of admitting that you don't know much about your religion nor even why you choose to follow it?

BTW, most of us who have been here for the many incarnations of this forum have heard infinityloops "arguments" before, and the others, and Ive seen them be destroyed by posters like Recure, Daciple, Scar... and others.
None of your assertions against Islam are irrefutable, most are childish. Any Islamic scholar would be on the floor laughing at half of the utter nonsense you spout.

As for me, obviously this is not the case, you are incapable at responding to 99% of what I say, you dodge most of it like a dog with their tail between their legs. All your actions, things you've said and strange claims you've made have convinced me that you don't even know about Christianity, let along Islam.
Your idolization of Daciple is also very bizarre I have to say, a man with a few screws loose in his head who raves for 90 paragraphs about how he thinks the grass is blue and the sky is purple, with tons of ad hominems.

You clearly don't care about arguments, you only root for teams (tribalism).

Im not going to let muslims that jump into every positive thread get me to rise to them anymore, but lets not point the finger here, and say christians are hateful or attacking muslims
Literally everything you, JoChris, floss and your gang post is highly derogatory, intending to be offensive (baiting), defamatory and entirely in bad-faith with no other point than to spread your highly hostile, Islamophobic agenda. When we defend ourselves, then you accuse us of what you do (projection).

I really do get tired of hypocritical Christians with no moral compass, no faith and no humility.


The following two pictures encapsulate the minds of the people we're dealing with:




 
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floss

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It's amazing to witness truth unfolding. The followers of the Roman conception of Jesus are empty of the purity, intelligence, and humility of the One God (that Jesus worshiped). Instead of acknowledging the Master of us all, it burns them up inside that Islam are the true representatives of the Messiah and the God of Abraham. It's sad the Christian's foundation are the letters of Saul, instead of verses extolling the Almighty One:

He is too Great and too Mighty to seek any partners. Thus, none among what He creates opposes Him, nor is there any equal peer like Him from among His possessions, nor is there any partner in His Kingdom. He is the One, the Unique, the One sought by all, the Eternal, the Everlasting, the Lord of the cosmos Who has always been and shall always be, the eternally all alone before the beginning of time and after the end of all affairs. He will never terminate nor expire. Thus do I describe my Lord; there is no god except Allah; Great is He and how Great! Glorified is He and how Glorified! Almighty is He and how Almighty! He is far above what the unjust ones say about Him, far, far above that! - Ali ibn Abu Talib
The only truth is you and the muslims here are spiritually blinded, I will go even as far as saying yall are demonically oppressed and/or possessed. You think you are a pretty smart guy, this will be your down fall. Keep puffing yourself up and one day you will stand in front of Jesus to be judge. I highly doubt you will think you're that smart anymore. The Father God have giving all judgement to the Son. You keep on believing the jesus of islam and you will face the same judgement as them. The lake of fire is reserved for false prophet like muhamad.
 
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The Father God have giving all judgement to the Son. You keep on believing the jesus of islam and you will face the same judgement as them.
Yes you're correct:

And when Allah will say, ‘O Jesus son of Mary! Was it you who said to the people, “Take me and my mother for gods besides Allah”?’ He will say, ‘Immaculate are You! It does not behoove me to say what I have no right to [say]. Had I said it, You would certainly have known it: You know whatever is in my self, and I do not know what is in Your Self. Indeed You are knower of all that is Unseen.
I did not say to them [anything] except what You had commanded me [to say]: “Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” And I was a witness to them so long as I was among them. But when You had taken me away, You Yourself were watchful over them, and You are witness to all things.
If You punish them, they are indeed Your creatures; but if You forgive them, You are indeed the All-mighty, the All-wise.’
(Surah 5:116-118)


We're all answerable to God in the end. Here is what God said to you polytheists in your own book:

“You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I YHWH your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
(Exodus 20:3-6)

"To you it was shown that you might know that YHWH, He is God; there is no other besides Him.
(Deuteronomy 4:35)

Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God, YHWH is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. (Deuteronomy 6:4-6)

'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39)

For thus says YHWH, who created the heavens, he is God!, who formed the earth and made it, he established it;
he did not create it a chaos, he formed it to be inhabited! “I am the Lord, and there is no other (Isaiah 45:18)

“Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I YHWH, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.’ (Isaiah 45:22)

To whom can you compare Me Or declare Me similar? To whom can you liken Me, So that we seem comparable? (Isaiah 46:5)

Bear in mind what happened of old; For I am God, and there is none else, I am divine, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah 46:9)

For the sake of My name I control My wrath; To My own glory, I am patient with you, And I will not destroy you. See, I refine you, but not as silver; I test you in the furnace of affliction. For My sake, My own sake, do I act— Lest [My name] be dishonored! I will not give My glory to another. Listen to Me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am He—I am the first, And I am the last as well. My own hand founded the earth, My right hand spread out the skies. I call unto them, let them stand up. (Isaiah 48:9-13)


"O YHWH, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (1 Chronicles 17:20)
 
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Infinityloop you twist pretty much everything, every thing someone says, and every scripture, you're very good at painting narratives, Ive refuted a few times with scripture your categoric claims. Some of your reasoning is just completely outlandish like, the whole revelation being a self fulfilling prophecy, (thats not even reasonable, but because it invalidates something that gives christianity alot of weight, (prophecy) this is your stance, or the fact that you claim that they thought it was about to happen in the Bible, when Paul clearly claims, it was a future event. Your exegesis, on christianity all has this narrow view, and everything must fit it, its clear you just twist every scripture to fit this narrow view that makes sense in Islamic paradigm.

Ive honestly got better things to do with my time, than debate every scripture you twist. Like seriously some of the things you posted like the links to youtube channels just come from a complete skewed interpretation, you remind me of David Koresh, seriously you've got the same approach a complete reinterpretation of the Bible, that is just wrong.

I dont really intend to bang my head against the wall against a confirmation bias.

Theres so much in your posts like Jesus is only the messiah of Israel etc. That I can post refutations to, but then its really just two people posting links back and fourth. This is a fruitless discussion and Im bowing out of it, its a waste of time trying to talk to someone with a confirmation bias. Ill give you the verses on Allah and compassion, but still he still states he loves not unbelievers, Christianity specifically says Jesus loved sinners, infact we are encouraged to pray for our enemies, not bring them into submission, those are 2 different concepts and again with a misperception on what I meant you think you've nailed it.

When I talk about submission I am talking about this concept

Islam divides the world into two camps: the dar al-Islam (House of Submission) and the dar al-harb (House of War). The former are those lands which have been brought into submission to Islam; the latter are those nations which have not yet been brought into submission. This is how Islam actually views the world!


I think Im due to hit the ignore button soon, but a couple of points id like to leave you with.


Similarly, I have argued that the character of the God of the New Testament is fundamentally different from the character of the God of the Qur’an. The God of the New Testament loves unbelievers with a love that is unconditional and universal (Matthew 5.43-48), whereas the God of the Qur’an has no love for unbelievers but loves only those who are faithful Muslims (III.25; XIX. 95).


But the real Achilles Heel of Islam is its portrait of the historical Jesus. It is ironic that the Qur’an chooses to deny the best established fact about Jesus, namely, his crucifixion (IV.157). Not only is there not a single shred of evidence in favor of this remarkable hypothesis, but the evidence supporting Jesus’ crucifixion is, as Emory University New Testament scholar L. T. Johnson puts it, “overwhelming” (The Real Jesus [San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1996], p. 125). Paula Frederickson, whose book From Jesus to Christ inspired the PBS special by the same name, declares, “The crucifixion is the strongest single fact we have about Jesus” (Society of Biblical Literature meeting, November 22, 1999). The crucifixion of Jesus is recognized even by the sceptical critics in the Jesus Seminar as--to quote Robert Funk--”one indisputable fact” (Jesus Seminar video).



When we think that the Qur’an was written by a man living in Arabia 600 years after Jesus with no independent source of information about him, it really isn’t so surprising that his view of Jesus was distorted. Whatever else one might say about Islam, its view of Jesus is erroneous, and so this religion cannot be true. There is good material on this site about Islam and Christianity; for example, "Who is the Real Jesus: The Jesus of the Bible or The Jesus of the Qur'An?", "Craig vs. Ally: Did Jesus Rise from the Dead?", and
"Craig vs. Badawi: The Concept of God in Islam and Christianity."

This is from WLC, and tbh with you this argument for me is stronger than any you have given again regardless of the cherrypicking and twisting narrative.
 
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Jesus of Nazareth is the most influential person who ever lived. Twenty centuries after his death, he continues to exert his power of fascination over the minds of thinking men and women. Peter Jennings’ television special “In Search of Jesus” attracted some 16 million viewers across the country. Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of the Christ” grossed 370 million dollars. Dan Brown’s book The DaVinci Code has been a runaway best seller, exceeding the 100 million mark in some 40 languages. People obviously continue to be fascinated by Jesus.


But who is Jesus really? Is he, as the Bible says, the divine Son of God? Or was he merely a human prophet, as Muslims have been taught to believe? Who is the real Jesus?


I propose to answer that question as a historian. I shall look at the New Testament and the Qur’an as the historian looks at any other sources for ancient history. I shall not treat them as inspired or holy books. Accordingly, I shall not require them to be inerrant or infallible in order to be valuable historical sources. By taking this historical approach, we prevent the discussion from degenerating into arguments over Bible difficulties or Qur’anic inconsistencies. The question is not whether the sources are inerrant but whether they allow us to discover who the historical Jesus really was.


Now in order to determine who the historical Jesus really was, we need to have some objective criteria for assessing our sources. Prof. John Meier, an eminent New Testament historian, lists the following four criteria: [1]


1. Multiple, independent sources. Events which are reported by independent, and especially early, sources are likely to be historical.


2. Dissimilarity. If a saying or event is different from prior Judaism and also from later Christianity, then it probably doesn’t derive from either one and so belongs to the historical Jesus.


3. Embarrassment. Sayings or events that would have been embarrassing or difficult for the Christian church are unlikely to have been invented and so are likely historical.


4. Rejection and execution. Jesus’ crucifixion is so indisputably established as an anchor point in history that words and deeds of Jesus must be assessed in terms of their likelihood of leading to his execution as “King of the Jews.” A bland Jesus who just preached monotheism would never have provoked such opposition.


When we apply such criteria to the New Testament, we’re able to establish a good deal about the historical Jesus. Let me discuss just three of the facts that emerge about this remarkable man.


1. Jesus’s Radical Self-Concept. The Qur’an says that Jesus thought of himself as no more than a human prophet who told people to worship the one, true God. However, on the basis of the criteria, it can be shown that among the historically authentic words of Jesus are claims which reveal his divine self-understanding.


Take, for example, Jesus’ claim to be the Son of Man. The criteria of multiple sources and dissimilarity show it belongs to the historical Jesus. Now most laymen probably think that this title refers to Jesus’ humanity, just as the title “Son of God” refers to his deity. But that’s a mistake. It fails to take into account the Jewish background of the expression. In the Old Testament book of Daniel, chapter 7, Daniel sees a vision of a divine-human figure coming on the clouds of heaven to whom God will give everlasting authority, glory, and dominion. No mere human being could be accorded such status, for this would be to commit the sin which Muslims call shirk, giving something which properly belongs to God alone to someone else. Yet this is the status which Jesus claimed for himself. Probably the most famous “Son of Man” saying by Jesus comes at his trial before the Jewish high priest. I quote:


Then the high priest stood up . . . and asked Jesus, . . . ‘Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’
‘I am,’ said Jesus. ‘And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.’
The high priest tore his clothes. . . . ‘You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?’ They all condemned him as worthy of death. (Mark 14:60-64 NIV)

Every Muslim would have to agree with the high priest and the Council that Jesus is a blasphemer who is worthy of death because he had made himself equal to God.


Not only did Jesus claim to be the Son of Man, but he also thought of himself as the unique Son of God. Jesus’ self-understanding as God’s special Son comes to expression in his parable of the wicked tenants of the vineyard, which even the radical, sceptical critics in the so-called Jesus Seminar recognize as authentic. In this parable, the vineyard symbolizes Israel, the owner of the vineyard is God, the tenants are the Jewish religious leaders, and the servants are the prophets send by God. In Mark 12.1-9 we read:


‘A man planted a vineyard . . . [and] rented [it] to some farmers. . . . At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. But they seized him, beat him, and sent him away empty handed. Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.
‘He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, “They will respect my son.” But the tenants said to one another, “This is the heir. . . . let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.” So they took him and killed him. . . .’ (Mark 12:1-9 NIV)

Now what does this parable tell us about Jesus’ self-understanding? It tells us that Jesus thought of himself as God’s only, beloved son, distinct from all the prophets, God’s final messenger, and even the heir to Israel. He did not think of himself as merely another human prophet.


Jesus’s self-concept as God’s special Son comes to explicit expression in Matthew 11.27: “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.” It is unlikely the church invented this saying because it says that the Son is unknowable--”no one knows the Son except the Father”--, but for the post-Easter church we can know the Son. So by the criterion of dissimilarity this saying is authentic. What does this saying then tell us about Jesus’ self-concept? It tells us that he thought of himself as the exclusive Son of God and the only revelation of God to mankind!


This is really incredible! Yet this is what the historical Jesus believed. C. S. Lewis was right when he said,


A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said . . . would either be a lunatic--on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. . . . You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. [2]

2. Jesus’s Trial and Crucifixion. According to the Gospels Jesus was condemned by the Jewish high court on the charge of blasphemy and then delivered to the Romans for execution for treason for claiming to be King of the Jews. Not only are these facts confirmed by independent biblical sources like Paul and the Acts of the Apostles, but they are also confirmed by extra-biblical sources. From the Jewish historian Josephus and the Syrian writer Mara bar Serapion we learn that the Jewish leaders made a formal accusation against Jesus and participated in events leading up to his crucifixion. From the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a, we learn that Jewish involvement in the trial was explained as a proper undertaking against a heretic. And from Josephus and the Roman historian Tacitus, we learn that Jesus was crucified by Roman authority under the sentence of Pontius Pilate. According to L. T. Johnson, a New Testament historian at Emory University, “The support for the mode of his death, its agents, and perhaps its co-agents, is overwhelming: Jesus faced a trial before his death, was condemned and executed by crucifixion. [3]


Perhaps the single most egregious historical error found in the Qur’an is its claim that Jesus was not in fact crucified. Not only is there not a single shred of evidence in favor of this remarkable hypothesis, but the evidence supporting Jesus’ crucifixion is, as Johnson says, “overwhelming.” Those of you who are Muslims need to appreciate that no one who is not already a Muslim believes that the historical Jesus was not crucified. The crucifixion of Jesus is recognized even by the sceptical critics in the Jesus Seminar as--to quote Robert Funk--”one indisputable fact." [4] Indeed, Paula Frederickson, whose book From Jesus to Christ inspired the PBS special by the same name, declares roundly, “The crucifixion is the strongest single fact we have about Jesus.” [5]


3. Jesus’ Resurrection. What happened to Jesus after his crucifixion? The majority of scholars who have written on this subject agree that three things happened:


First, on the Sunday morning following the crucifixion, Jesus’ tomb was found empty by a group of his women followers.


Second, on multiple occasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus alive from the dead.


And third, the disciples suddenly and sincerely came to believe that Jesus was risen from the dead despite their every predisposition to the contrary.


I think that the best explanation of these three facts is that the disciples were right: God had raised Jesus from the dead. This has enormous theological significance. For as the German theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg explains,


The resurrection of Jesus acquires such decisive meaning, not merely because someone or anyone has been raised from the dead, but because it is Jesus of Nazareth, whose execution was instigated. . . because he had blasphemed against God. If this man was raised from the dead, then that plainly means that the God whom he had supposedly blasphemed has committed Himself to him. [6]

In summary, on purely historical grounds, we have seen (1) that Jesus of Nazareth possessed a radical self-concept as the unique Son of God and the Son of Man, (2) that he was tried, condemned, and crucified for his allegedly blasphemous claims, and (3) that God raised him from the dead in vindication of those claims.


All this is in contradiction to the Qur’an’s claims that Jesus thought of himself as a mere prophet preaching a blasé monotheism, that he was not crucified, and that he did not rise from the dead.


When you think about it, however, this situation isn’t really surprising. I mean, which would you trust: documents written down within the first generation of the events they record, while the eyewitnesses were still alive, or a book written over 600 years after the events with no independent, historical source of information? Why, even to ask the question is to answer it!


In fact, the Qur’an contains demonstrably legendary stories about Jesus which evolved during the centuries after his death. I’m referring to stories about Jesus which are found in the so-called apocryphal gospels--these are forgeries which appeared in the second and third centuries after Christ--and which the Qur’an unwittingly repeats as facts. For example, the Qur’an mentions the story--borrowed from the legendary forgery entitled The Infancy Gospel of Thomas--of how the boy Jesus made a bird out of clay and then made it come to life (III.70, V.100-110). Such stories are fictional. Thus, the Qur’an offers us no independent historical source for Jesus.


Historically speaking, then, the answer to the question before us seems clear: the real Jesus is the person described in the New Testament, not the legendary fabrication we read about in the Qur’an.
 
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Infinityloop you twist pretty much everything, every thing someone says
Now you're just making more unsubstantiated allegations, against me this time.

Ive refuted a few times with scripture your categoric claims.
Such as?

Some of your reasoning is just completely outlandish like, the whole revelation being a self fulfilling prophecy, (thats not even reasonable, but because it invalidates something that gives christianity alot of weight, (prophecy)
Your not very bright lad. Your interpretation of that book is self-fulfilling prophecy, and at that most of Christian history has dealt with Christians overrating to their misinterpretations of their texts, intentionally creating their adversaries.
Everything to the mind of a doomsday Christian all conveniently matches their texts this very year, every year.

Your exegesis, on christianity all has this narrow view, and everything must fit it, its clear you just twist every scripture to fit this narrow view
These do accurately sum up my views, I'm glad you represented me accurately there.

Ive honestly got better things to do with my time, than debate every scripture you twist.
Such as Isaiah 53 being about Jesus?

Theres so much in your posts like Jesus is only the messiah of Israel etc.
But he was and that's not my opinion.

Ill give you the verses on Allah and compassion, but still he still states he loves not unbelievers, Christianity specifically says Jesus loved sinners, infact we are encouraged to pray for our enemies
This is very incorrect, what the Bible actually says:

All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
(1 Thessalonians 1:5-9)

When I talk about submission I am talking about this concept

Islam divides the world into two camps: the dar al-Islam (House of Submission) and the dar al-harb (House of War). The former are those lands which have been brought into submission to Islam; the latter are those nations which have not yet been brought into submission. This is how Islam actually views the world!
That's no correct, you should read this.

Submission or Islam in the Arabic language is a meaning or a description rather than a name or a title. It describes the state of mind of anyone who recognizes God’s absolute authority, and reaches a conviction that God alone possesses all power; no other entity possesses any power or control independent of Him. The logical consequence of such a realization is to devote one’s life and one’s worship absolutely to God alone.

So, Submission (or Islam in Arabic language) is a spiritual state of mind and not a title of a religion that belongs to a specific group of people. ANYONE who submits and worships one God without idolizing other entities is a Submitter by definition (Muslim in Arabic language).


This state of mind basically conforms with God’s one and only message He delivered to man-kind through all of His messengers since Noah; worship God alone and avoid idolatry. Based on that, one can safely conclude that the message of Islam or Submission has been in existence way before the time of prophet Muhammad and way before Quran. All God’s messengers, since Noah, devoted their lives and worship to God alone and were Submitters to Him alone.

As Surah 2:62 states:
"Indeed the faithful, the Jews,the Christians, and the Sabaeans—those of them who have faith in God and the Last Dayand act righteously—they shall have their reward near their Lord,and they will have no fear,nor will they grieve."


Once again Seekinheart, you are just spreading your Islamophobic hate agenda and trying to misrepresent and misinterpret Islam every way you possibly can. You're quite desperate.

Similarly, I have argued that the character of the God of the New Testament is fundamentally different from the character of the God of the Qur’an. The God of the New Testament loves unbelievers with a love that is unconditional and universal (Matthew 5.43-48), whereas the God of the Qur’an has no love for unbelievers but loves only those who are faithful Muslims (III.25; XIX. 95).


But the real Achilles Heel of Islam is its portrait of the historical Jesus. It is ironic that the Qur’an chooses to deny the best established fact about Jesus, namely, his crucifixion (IV.157). Not only is there not a single shred of evidence in favor of this remarkable hypothesis, but the evidence supporting Jesus’ crucifixion is, as Emory University New Testament scholar L. T. Johnson puts it, “overwhelming” (The Real Jesus [San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1996], p. 125). Paula Frederickson, whose book From Jesus to Christ inspired the PBS special by the same name, declares, “The crucifixion is the strongest single fact we have about Jesus” (Society of Biblical Literature meeting, November 22, 1999). The crucifixion of Jesus is recognized even by the sceptical critics in the Jesus Seminar as--to quote Robert Funk--”one indisputable fact” (Jesus Seminar video).
There is very slim evidence (not proof) either way you go. There is nothing incontestably historical about the Jesus of the New Testament, whatsoever. The reason that we have Jesus-mythists is for this very reason, and Jesus-mythists are quite popular in Atheist communities.


Outside of the New Testament, you've only got Gnostic texts and a few accounts from secular sources that are even later than Matt/Mark/Luke themselves are commonly thought to be.

When we think that the Qur’an was written by a man living in Arabia 600 years after Jesus with no independent source of information about him, it really isn’t so surprising that his view of Jesus was distorted. Whatever else one might say about Islam, its view of Jesus is erroneous, and so this religion cannot be true. There is good material on this site about Islam and Christianity; for example, "Who is the Real Jesus: The Jesus of the Bible or The Jesus of the Qur'An?", "Craig vs. Ally: Did Jesus Rise from the Dead?", and "Craig vs. Badawi: The Concept of God in Islam and Christianity."
That's a non-argument. The Qur'an is the word of God, the New Testament are decades later claimed historical accounts by anonymous authors assembling things from oral tradition.



And I'll be putting you on ignore before you put me on ignore :cool:
 
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