Barriers between you and God?

[Red Sky at Morning]

Yes, this is all God really asks in the Torah.

But there is a problem...

Psalm 14:3
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

 

[Infinityloop]

Also @Karlysymon I would challenge you to give Jeremiah 2 a thorough read

 

[Infinityloop]

But there is a problem...

Psalm 14:3
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

Read the chapter, it clearly doesn't say that nobody is good enough for God.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Read the chapter, it clearly doesn't say that nobody is good enough for God.

The Psalm touches on other topics but it does state the fallen state of the children of men fairly clearly. Perhaps for people who were not children of men this would not apply?

Psalm 14 King James Version (KJV)

14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his refuge.

7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

 

[Infinityloop]

The Psalm touches on other topics but it does state the fallen state of the children of men fairly clearly. Perhaps for people who were not children of men this would not apply?

Psalm 14 King James Version (KJV)

14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his refuge.

7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

The actual subject is really defined in the last verse of the poem/hymn.
A lot of David's poems/hymns are like that "so and so happened, so and so feelings, so and so situations, but the solution was always so and so"
Even the most basic exegesis of this Psalm shows it's clearly about a tendency of disbelief during the exile period, it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to turn the chapter into being about "nobody is deserving of God's forgiveness, we're all doomed unless there is some future sacrifice".

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The actual subject is really defined in the last verse of the poem/hymn.
A lot of David's poems/hymns are like that "so and so happened, so and so feelings, so and so situations, but the solution was always so and so"
Even the most basic exegesis of this Psalm shows it's clearly about a tendency of disbelief during the exile period, it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to turn the chapter into being about "nobody is deserving of God's forgiveness, we're all doomed unless there is some future sacrifice".

Well, I guess just you're one of those people who insist on finding out the hard way!

 

[DavidSon]

The actual subject is really defined in the last verse of the poem/hymn.
A lot of David's poems/hymns are like that "so and so happened, so and so feelings, so and so situations, but the solution was always so and so"
Even the most basic exegesis of this Psalm shows it's clearly about a tendency of disbelief during the exile period, it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to turn the chapter into being about "nobody is deserving of God's forgiveness, we're all doomed unless there is some future sacrifice".

Yeah it takes mental gymnastics to make any definite conclusion about the revelation of God from David's songs. The Psalms encompass every human emotion from regret to pride, anger to joy, everything in between. For almost any verse cherrypicked from Pslams you could pull up another quote that contradicts it.

 

[Infinityloop]

Yeah it takes mental gymnastics to make any definite conclusion about the revelation of God from David's songs. The Psalms encompass every human emotion from regret to pride, anger to joy, everything in between. For almost any verse cherrypicked from Pslams you could pull up another quote that contradicts it.

Yes I fully agree brother

 

[Daciple]

This is a fallacy boring on ad hominem, that you think all "me me me" rather than the subject being discussed. I don't know why **MY** beliefs are so important to you.

Its not an ad hominem, its a stated fact, you refuse to divulge your actual beliefs while continually telling others they have it all wrong. And its quite obvious why someone elses beliefs are important when confronting Religious Subjects, I believe you clearly know and understand why, or else you would simply state your beliefs clearly so others could judge the merits of your belief system in the same light you choose to judge everyone else. Well I take that back, basically just Biblical Christianity, that seems to the belief system you choose to disavow with every post and thread.

For others who may not understand why I would ask you to blatantly define your own beliefs, it is because when someone refuses to define their own beliefs on the subjects at hand it allows them to backpedal and change positions at any moment while not being true to anything, save any stated position against the ideology spoken about. For you that would be most always Christianity. If you were to simply define your belief system then we all could gauge the authenticity and legitimacy of your arguments. Instead we are just left with you always playing the Devils Advocate 24/7, which is a proper definition of your actions on these forums...

A perfect example of this is whenever I or others enter into a debate with my good friend @Artful Revealer, after dozens of debates with him, and the fact that he has literally written a Thread on this forum that clearly defines his position on Christianity and Religion, which is his own personal Religion based mainly on marcionism gnosticism. Since he has defined his base belief and positions everyone can now take what he says and recognize the context of what he has to say. He is in no position to be a constant Devils Advocate because if he isnt speaking something that encompasses his already stated position then he is an utter hypocrite.

If you would define your position as Islam, which I believe it mainly is although you wont outright admit it, then we can take half of the garbage you say against Christianity and show how you are being facetious in your attacks of Christianity because half of what you say would also be calling out the god of Islam or the Holy Text or ideologies within Islam. Since you wont admit your position then you are continually free to make all sorts of attacks from every angle regardless of whether the positions contradict each other or your basic Worldview on Religion.

You however understand all of this hence why you refuse to clarify any positive position you truly hold, because your purpose on this site isnt to direct others towards what you would consider the Truth, you are just here to denigrate Christ and those who believe in Him...

What are you even blathering about? in my time here I've barely ever seen you around, we've only directly interacted about twice as far as I remember.

Anything you say bud...

I have no idea what you're saying here, I do mean what I said in the quote though, I will discuss or debate you on the topic of salvation, making a thread about it, if it's something you really **need** me to do.

I dont need you to do anything, I dont care what you do or dont do, I just was trying to bring the light to others your behavior and illegitimacy of any arguments you have made thus far. It is literally pointless to debate you on any topic because you will refuse to lay out your personal belief system so we can keep in context your viewpoints. Thus you will be in a position to not even believe anything you say, you will just say anything at all to make the brunt of your displeasure which is Christianity and Christians, the sole purpose of your time here.

Like I said since you refuse to do what literally everyone here has done, which is clearly define their positions as they debate, you have made and will continue to make all of your arguments invalid and not worthy of reading, agreeing with, defending or debating against.

Hopefully others will realize this as well instead of wasting their time debating you, because half of the stuff you say contradicts itself, which again is okay when the only purpose you have is to de-legitimatize Christianity by whatever means necessary.

It is essentially a form of Taqiya which I am sure you know all about...

Until the next time keep your curved sword sharp and at the ready....

 

[Infinityloop]

Its not an ad hominem, its a stated fact, you refuse to divulge your actual beliefs while continually telling others they have it all wrong. And its quite obvious why someone elses beliefs are important when confronting Religious Subjects, I believe you clearly know and understand why, or else you would simply state your beliefs clearly so others could judge the merits of your belief system in the same light you choose to judge everyone else. Well I take that back, basically just Biblical Christianity, that seems to the belief system you choose to disavow with every post and thread.

For others who may not understand why I would ask you to blatantly define your own beliefs, it is because when someone refuses to define their own beliefs on the subjects at hand it allows them to backpedal and change positions at any moment while not being true to anything, save any stated position against the ideology spoken about. For you that would be most always Christianity. If you were to simply define your belief system then we all could gauge the authenticity and legitimacy of your arguments. Instead we are just left with you always playing the Devils Advocate 24/7, which is a proper definition of your actions on these forums...

Yes, that's called arguing the person not the argument. I have very little interest in that, but I see that you in fact do because you are displaying a view equivalent to a football match, where everyone has their uniforms and flags at the ready. I have very little interest in what uniform you wear, what flag you wave or what your theme song is.

Such a view and approach I don't think corresponds to reality.
I am concerned with truth, not with foolishly trying to validate any pre-conceived belief system, I am a person who does not approach the world like that, nor do I proselytize.
It is not my problem if you have issues with me questioning Christianity (the concept of "Biblical Christianity" is a giant fallacy BTW). I am respectful and patient, I don't judge you nor ever intent to sell anyone anything. How you respond is entirely your own accord.

A perfect example of this is whenever I or others enter into a debate with my good friend @Artful Revealer, after dozens of debates with him, and the fact that he has literally written a Thread on this forum that clearly defines his position on Christianity and Religion, which is his own personal Religion based mainly on marcionism gnosticism. Since he has defined his base belief and positions everyone can now take what he says and recognize the context of what he has to say. He is in no position to be a constant Devils Advocate because if he isnt speaking something that encompasses his already stated position then he is an utter hypocrite.

This paragraph goes to show why you are so concerned with attacking the person instead of the argument. Honestly, I find this to the the polar opposite of wisdom.

If you would define your position as Islam, which I believe it mainly is although you wont outright admit it, then we can take half of the garbage you say against Christianity and show how you are being facetious in your attacks of Christianity because half of what you say would also be calling out the god of Islam or the Holy Text or ideologies within Islam. Since you wont admit your position then you are continually free to make all sorts of attacks from every angle regardless of whether the positions contradict each other or your basic Worldview on Religion.

This is an interesting paragraph. What I will say to you is that unless you are a person who is willing to question things, I don't know how you could be so arrogant to make truth claims.
I am not a fundamentalist who simply follows a religion you perceive 'the opposite', I am an entirely different type of religious person. I am concerned with truth, the nature of truth, life, the nature of life, the nature of knowledge, the nature of revelation, the nature of society, the nature of time, an so forth. I would presume from what I've read of your posts, that we do not share much in common.
I have enough faith in God to not be boastful or spiteful.

What I believe is really of no significance to this thread and the questions it asks. Continuing to throw things into me me me me instead of about the topic is something I cannot rationalize. Your responses to me here are even stranger than some of the other users on this forum. Nonetheless, I wish you no ill-will.

You however understand all of this hence why you refuse to clarify any positive position you truly hold, because your purpose on this site isnt to direct others towards what you would consider the Truth, you are just here to denigrate Christ and those who believe in Him...

This small paragraph is strangely contradictory. You state that you perceive me as not being interested 'directing others towards the truth', yet assert that I am here to 'denigrate Christ', which oddly seems to imply that you think that I post things I don't believe is true, or that I don't pose questions I feel are relevant, necessary or helpful in deciding such a thing.

Considering that this thread raises many good points about the inconsistency and contradiction in basic Christian doctrine (and I mean "Christian" to refer to the beliefs of the institutions of Catholicism and Protestantism) in light of what "the Bible" itself actually says. It begs the question why I'm getting replies like this from you.

I dont need you to do anything, I dont care what you do or dont do, I just was trying to bring the light to others your behavior and illegitimacy of any arguments you have made thus far. It is literally pointless to debate you on any topic because you will refuse to lay out your personal belief system so we can keep in context your viewpoints.

Aka:
"It is literally pointless to debate you on our truth claims because you will refuse to let us attack your belief system as a way of dodging and scapegoating from your objections, questions and observations, so that we can make it about you and not your arguments".

Also, calling my arguments "illegitimate" doesn't make it so. I appreciate your seeming certainty you have towards of your belief system but just deflecting me like that is not a strong counterargument.

Thus you will be in a position to not even believe anything you say, you will just say anything at all to make the brunt of your displeasure which is Christianity and Christians, the sole purpose of your time here.

Not at all. I find the things Christians say to be interesting, that's why I make threads like this, which was inspired by a post someone else made on another thread.

and will continue to make all of your arguments invalid and not worthy of reading, agreeing with, defending or debating against.

Or, in other words:

 

[Infinityloop]

you refuse to divulge your actual beliefs while continually telling others they have it all wrong.

Also on this one single line, there are just so many problems with the basis of your approach here.

From really early on when I joined this place last year, I established (and repeated the statement over and over again) that belief cannot be fought with belief, it can only be fought with reason.

What your philosophy here outlines is a reduction of understanding down to very basic primal tribalism. For you, you are a sole possessor of truth who holds the only light, and in your mind you are encountering the ignorant disbelievers who either know the truth but deny it, or who are completely "deceived by Satan" in your view and simply don't realize that they're really deceived. This is your mindset of which your philosophy branches from.
Following from this, you mentally arrange groups by tribes and clans, where you have all Protestants of your leanings over on your side, then there are other Protestants that disagree with you on another side, then you have the "Evil" Catholics on another side, then you have "deceptive" Jews and "barbaric" Muslims on another side, then you have Atheists on another side. Etc.
You judge the merits of an argument depending on how close the beliefs of the person asking is to your own. The closer they are to you, the more sincere you perceive them to be, the further away from you the more you perceive it as a direct attack on your livelihood.


This is how I see the philosophy you are presenting to me here, aided by the attacks I've seen of yours against Jahtruthers, Catholics and Muslims on various threads that have been bumped.
Granted, I haven't payed much attention to what you've posted, but this is the worldview I've seen quite militantly presented.
You may perceive yourself to be sincere but I do not see your responses to be in good faith, and this lines up with what little I have read of your aforementioned posts in the past.

I bring this to the surface because I don't think it's healthy and it is by far not a good starting point for establishing truth, nor an honest starting point for discussion with people. It is a philosophy routed in judgmental tribalism. I know that it can be irresistible to pin an argument on a person or ideology but I don't believe it is a sign that points to someone with a faith in God. I don't say this in reference to you either, I say as God is supposed to be "the ultimate knowledge" after all, faith being meant to be a faculty related to knowledge.

Unlike you towards me (you hold me in contempt because you want me to follow your sect or religion), I demand nothing of you. God bless you, even if you may not wish the same towards me.

 

[Daciple]

Yes, that's called arguing the person not the argument. I have very little interest in that, but I see that you in fact do because you are displaying a view equivalent to a football match, where everyone has their uniforms and flags at the ready. I have very little interest in what uniform you wear, what flag you wave or what your theme song is.

I would disagree with the idea that you dont have any interest in what uniform someone is wearing, their flag or their theme song. On this Board all I have seen you do is pick one certain team, one certain uniform, one certain flag and attack it from all angles and at any cost. As long as someone doesnt have on team Christian you have nothing to say to them. While you try and maintain that you dont have a flag or a uniform for yourself (which is what I am commenting on) you clearly have an agenda against one specific team. As I said your unwillingness to define your own team shows that your sole purpose on this site is to pick a certain team and denounce it....

I am concerned with truth

I would believe that if you actually gave your definition of what the Truth is, aka defining your beliefs, but again that the thing you dont do thus I dont believe you care about any Truth. The only purpose of your time on this forum so far has been how can I try and argue against any and every aspect of Christianity that I can, which is exactly what we observe on this thread.

The supposed topic is barriers between you and god, the arguments are all 100% correlated to how Christianity is the only barrier. Nothing about any other Religion, Ideology, or Belief, nor are you offering ways to get to God, which of course would mean you would have to clearly define your beliefs on God, and the methods in which we get to Him. Since you are not here to do these things, you wont and havent done it, because your mission is to again, denounce Christianity in any possible way...

What I will say to you is that unless you are a person who is willing to question things, I don't know how you could be so arrogant to make truth claims

I have indeed questioned things, I havent always believed in Christ. In fact for 1/2 my life I rejected Christ, and part of that time I specifically imperatively denounced Christ and everything to do with Christianity. Then God showed me I was wrong, I repented and was Born Again at the age of 20. Since then I have continued to question many facets of my belief system and others belief systems, regardless I have found that there is still only one Truth. I am actually concerned with that One Truth and I dont take it lightly on speaking and directing others towards that Truth.

Here is the thing if you actually knew you found the Truth, and you cared about others, then you would be what you call a "Fundamentalist" which essentially is a derogatory term used by those who dislike Religion (specifically Christianity) to label those who actually believe they have the Truth and want to share that Truth with others. You dont really care about the Truth, its obvious, nor do you have any Truth to give or tell, or you would simply do it instead of make arguments against ideologies all day long.

If you observe most other peoples posts on this forum, they spend time expressing the TRUTHS they believe in as much or close to as much as they do arguing against others. You do the exact opposite, nothing is really True to you, you just have counter points against Christianity...

The only "Truth" you have shown yourself to hold is that you think Christianity is wrong, thats it, that is all we see from you, which was why I made the original suggestion which we both know you cant or wont do...

I am concerned with truth, the nature of truth, life, the nature of life, the nature of knowledge, the nature of revelation, the nature of society, the nature of time, an so forth.

Again I dont believe you really are, if you were then you would clearly speak about the Truths that you have found and hold, instead you simply talk about what isnt True, which your main focus is on saying ARRGGHHH CHRISTIANITY IS WRONG!!!

Continuing to throw things into me me me me instead of about the topic is something I cannot rationalize.

Lets make it clear, my original response was purposeful, I have no care to argue the merits of your objections with Christianity, why? Because of the reasons I have stated, I believe you to be fake as can be, until I start seeing posts from you either clearly defining your ideologies of what Truth really is, or at least picking out other Faiths and Beliefs besides Christianity and have you try to argue against their merits and fundamental beliefs, then you are simply an eloquent troll.

I just happened to enter into this Thread because it was the most recent of your non stop haterade Posts and Threads you have created with the same sole purpose, devalue and demean Christianity and Christians and Christ Himself. In other words, I dont care about your Thread and happened in on it because it was the newest Thread, and it seemed the best place to call you out on your continual BS...

You state that you perceive me as not being interested 'directing others towards the truth', yet assert that I am here to 'denigrate Christ', which oddly seems to imply that you think that I post things I don't believe is true, or that I don't pose questions I feel are relevant, necessary or helpful in deciding such a thing.

There is no contradiction, its basic understanding. If you had a Truth, if there was something that was Truth, then you would plainly state it. You refuse.

And it is clear that you are here to denigrate Christ and Christianity and Christians, look at the fact that one other Christians literally called you out on that (in nicer and less blatant ways) and the fact that you are only arguing with Christians. Non Christians are liking your posts and you are congratulating and agreeing with each other. If you werent here to denigrate Christ, Christianity and Christians then you wouldn't constantly be arguing against them...

If you held an ideology apart from Christianity is wrong then you ought to be denigrating other Religions and Ideologies but you are not. In most of your posts you are either neutral or usually positive towards almost every other Religion and Belief and then take from them all and use each one in a new method to do what? Call Christianity out as being wrong...

This is one thing that I will never understand about Christianity.

First statement in the whole thread, something wrong with Christianity...

even though the Torah shows a very forgiving and open view of God,

Positively talking about the Torah or Judaism, in contrast to what?

why do Christians seem to think that there has to be a barrier between themselves and God, and why an idol is necessary to connect with God

Christianity, which you of course then attempt to denigrate by including the term idol, which is what? Jesus Christ.

You later then quote an entire article from here https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/leviticus-1711/

Passing it off as your own words considering you didnt bother to quote it, aka you're a plagiarist, however it is in the same vein as the pattern you continue to use. Taking some Religion, any other Religion and using or speaking of it positively in an attempt to type cast it against Christianity.

Then you say this:

I do hold Marcionism, while not personally agreeable, is a good reference here

Now once again trying to take another Religion (one which you never condemn) and do what with it?

in regards to the only natural conclusion to the dichotomy deifying Jesus places in contrast to the Torah.

Thats right use it as opposition to what? Judaism? Nah, Islam? Nah, Buddhism? Nah, Hinduism? Nah, Pantheism? Nah Atheism? Nah, just one thing and only one thing, only one ideology, one belief system, one Religion, as always and only Christianity.

I can literally show this thru out not only this Thread but every Thread you create or post on which in my view makes you nothing more than transparently fake and utterly dishonest in your approach to every topic. Thus why I see no point in debating whatever new BS you have to say against Christianity.

Instead, at least until you get real and post your actual beliefs and positions or at least fundamentally attack other Religions and Beliefs, I will just, when I am bored, shine a light on your hypocrisy and nonsense so others can clearly see you for what you are, a troll against Christianity. While you are eloquent and even intelligent, you are still simply a Troll...

Considering that this thread raises many good points about the inconsistency and contradiction in basic Christian doctrine (and I mean "Christian" to refer to the beliefs of the institutions of Catholicism and Protestantism) in light of what "the Bible" itself actually says. It begs the question why I'm getting replies like this from you.

Pretty sure I have made the reasoning of my responses clear, you are Troll who only cares to attack Christianity and thus arguing the merits of whatever new BS you think up as a way to denigrate Christ and Christianity isnt worth my or I am hoping others time (when they see thru your BS). You will literally taking opposing viewpoints and Religions and throw them into the mix in any attempt to make Christianity look bad, like using both the Torah and Marcionism which are polar opposites, in your attempt to call out Christians...

Not at all.

Then direct me to other Threads you have created that focus on calling out the problems you have with other Religions or Ideologies. Show me the here's why Islam and Muslims are liars. here's why Buddhism and Buddhist are liars, here's why Occultism and Occultists are liars, here's why Athiests and Atheism are liars, ect ect ect. When you make a comparable amount of Threads and Posts against all these other Religions and Ideologies, then maybe I will believe you, until then its obvious what your mission is here...

 

[Daciple]

Also on this one single line, there are just so many problems with the basis of your approach here.

From really early on when I joined this place last year, I established (and repeated the statement over and over again) that belief cannot be fought with belief, it can only be fought with reason.

What your philosophy here outlines is a reduction of understanding down to very basic primal tribalism. For you, you are a sole possessor of truth who holds the only light, and in your mind you are encountering the ignorant disbelievers who either know the truth but deny it, or who are completely "deceived by Satan" in your view and simply don't realize that they're really deceived. This is your mindset of which your philosophy branches from.
Following from this, you mentally arrange groups by tribes and clans, where you have all Protestants of your leanings over on your side, then there are other Protestants that disagree with you on another side, then you have the "Evil" Catholics on another side, then you have "deceptive" Jews and "barbaric" Muslims on another side, then you have Atheists on another side. Etc.
You judge the merits of an argument depending on how close the beliefs of the person asking is to your own. The closer they are to you, the more sincere you perceive them to be, the further away from you the more you perceive it as a direct attack on your livelihood.


This is how I see the philosophy you are presenting to me here, aided by the attacks I've seen of yours against Jahtruthers, Catholics and Muslims on various threads that have been bumped.
Granted, I haven't payed much attention to what you've posted, but this is the worldview I've seen quite militantly presented.
You may perceive yourself to be sincere but I do not see your responses to be in good faith, and this lines up with what little I have read of your aforementioned posts in the past.

I bring this to the surface because I don't think it's healthy and it is by far not a good starting point for establishing truth, nor an honest starting point for discussion with people. It is a philosophy routed in judgmental tribalism. I know that it can be irresistible to pin an argument on a person or ideology but I don't believe it is a sign that points to someone with a faith in God. I don't say this in reference to you either, I say as God is supposed to be "the ultimate knowledge" after all, faith being meant to be a faculty related to knowledge.

Unlike you towards me (you hold me in contempt because you want me to follow your sect or religion), I demand nothing of you. God bless you, even if you may not wish the same towards me.

Meh, IDC about how you perceive me, most of what you wrote is incorrect concerning me, however I know your full of it because I havent written a thing in about 2 years concerning Islam or Muslims, its just you carrying over from the Topics we would argue in the past. Eventually others will realize who you are...

Anywho I have other things more relevant of my time, I made my point clear, others can take it or leave it. I dont have anything against you as a Person, like your individual personal self, the man behind the persona of InfinityScimiLoop, never have, I just am calling out your methodology of posting.

I too hope God will bless you...

 

[Infinityloop]

I would disagree with the idea that you dont have any interest in what uniform someone is wearing, their flag or their theme song. On this Board all I have seen you do is pick one certain team, one certain uniform, one certain flag and attack it from all angles and at any cost. As long as someone doesnt have on team Christian you have nothing to say to them. While you try and maintain that you dont have a flag or a uniform for yourself (which is what I am commenting on) you clearly have an agenda against one specific team. As I said your unwillingness to define your own team shows that your sole purpose on this site is to pick a certain team and denounce it....

Not at all. I have in fact called out for others but have received only minor response. vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/what-other-religions-do-we-have-on-this-forum.6301/
If only members of other religions were more active on here, there could be a better chance of similar debate, there is nothing wrong with anything I have done.
I should also add for our audience that this is the only place online that I received this kind of response for asking questions and challenging beliefs.

Here's the thing also, you have an agenda not me. You even frame your discussion with terms like "your false religion" and claim yourself to have "the truth", which means that everything you do and say will naturally be filled with self-righteousness, propaganda and lying if it suits you.
Your religion is not the problem, it's your attitude.

I would believe that if you actually gave your definition of what the Truth is, aka defining your beliefs, but again that the thing you dont do thus I dont believe you care about any Truth. The only purpose of your time on this forum so far has been how can I try and argue against any and every aspect of Christianity that I can, which is exactly what we observe on this thread.

Truth is what is real, in contrast to being false or unreal.

As the dictionary defines it:

truth
(tro͞oth)
n. pl. truths (tro͞othz, tro͞oths)
1.
a. Conformity to fact or actuality: Does this story have any truth?
b. Reality; actuality: In truth, he was not qualified for the job.
c. The reality of a situation: The truth is, she respects your work.
2.
a. A statement proven to be or accepted as true: truths about nature.
b. Such statements considered as a group: researchers in pursuit of truth.
3. Sincerity; integrity: the truth of his intentions.
4. Fidelity to an original or standard: the truth of the copy.
5.
a. Theology & Philosophy That which is considered to be the ultimate ground of reality.
b. Logic The positive (true) truth-value.


Such conclusions come through logical and rational argument. This is the aspect related to reason, Truth as an object is both a state of being, as well as an abstract. Every philosophical system aims towards creating a coherent model for determining what it is. Religion is related to this.

I don't claim to have truth or not have it, I claim to seek it and desire it.

The supposed topic is barriers between you and god, the arguments are all 100% correlated to how Christianity is the only barrier. Nothing about any other Religion, Ideology, or Belief, nor are you offering ways to get to God, which of course would mean you would have to clearly define your beliefs on God, and the methods in which we get to Him. Since you are not here to do these things, you wont and havent done it, because your mission is to again, denounce Christianity in any possible way...

You are projecting your own ideas onto the OP.

The OP is very straight-forward: Christianity makes claims about our relation to God (that there is a barrier which requires a savior) and about the nature of salvation. Both of these points (if you cared to converse about the points rather than about me personally) I see as direct contradictions of the Torah.
I speak not against the New Testament or Christianity as a whole but the kinds of Christianity that make these claims and incorrect interpretations of New Testament passages for the purpose of leading people astray from proper exegesis.

I have indeed questioned things, I havent always believed in Christ. In fact for 1/2 my life I rejected Christ, and part of that time I specifically imperatively denounced Christ and everything to do with Christianity. Then God showed me I was wrong, I repented and was Born Again at the age of 20. Since then I have continued to question many facets of my belief system and others belief systems, regardless I have found that there is still only one Truth. I am actually concerned with that One Truth and I dont take it lightly on speaking and directing others towards that Truth.

Well if you speak honestly, why would you bash someone for believing equally that they've found that truth elsewhere?
I see inherent dishonesty in your post.

Here is the thing if you actually knew you found the Truth, and you cared about others, then you would be what you call a "Fundamentalist" which essentially is a derogatory term used by those who dislike Religion (specifically Christianity) to label those who actually believe they have the Truth and want to share that Truth with others. You dont really care about the Truth, its obvious, nor do you have any Truth to give or tell, or you would simply do it instead of make arguments against ideologies all day long.

Yes a fundamentalist is a derogatory term but it refers to behaviors and attitudes rampant from conclusions found in certain approaches to religions that are otherwise alien to their native backgrounds. Fundamentalism comes from not following scripture to the letter, but rather ignoring scripture to the letter.
Fundamentalism is also quite usually very hostile towards other religions, with views that often completely go against the moral teaching of the said religions, as well as a tendency towards a kind of scriptural-literalism which contradicts most of the historical hernemeutics of a text. At worst it leans towards total subjectivity (which I do in fact find to be a pillar of many Protestant denominations, as well as in Salafism, of which I'm actually aggressive against in ways you would have no idea. I'm friendly on here with you Protestants, but I'm aggressive with them.)

If you observe most other peoples posts on this forum, they spend time expressing the TRUTHS they believe in as much or close to as much as they do arguing against others. You do the exact opposite, nothing is really True to you, you just have counter points against Christianity...

Again what do you expect? why not invite more people over from other religions then? don't act like I'm responsible for there being 90% Christians here.

The only "Truth" you have shown yourself to hold is that you think Christianity is wrong, thats it, that is all we see from you, which was why I made the original suggestion which we both know you cant or wont do...

Don't put words in my mouth, you think so black-and-white that you have no reference-point for interpreting what I say.

In other words, I dont care about your Thread and happened in on it because it was the newest Thread, and it seemed the best place to call you out on your continual BS...

I think you are working yourself up for no reason. You have no interest in the topic of this thread, only attacking me.

There is no contradiction, its basic understanding. If you had a Truth, if there was something that was Truth, then you would plainly state it. You refuse.

Well yes that is a contradiction; you state that I am not looking for truth because I am questioning things that you regard as 'truth' (without any provided basis), you assert that because my questions are not lining up with your answers that I have a specific agenda against your concluded 'truth'. You seem to also imply there that truth is not arrived at through reason, to no degree. This is also quite puzzling.

And it is clear that you are here to denigrate Christ and Christianity and Christians, look at the fact that one other Christians literally called you out on that (in nicer and less blatant ways) and the fact that you are only arguing with Christians. Non Christians are liking your posts and you are congratulating and agreeing with each other. If you werent here to denigrate Christ, Christianity and Christians then you wouldn't constantly be arguing against them...

No, what you describe is called an echo-chamber, related to mob mentality.

Plus, you can't "call out" people for asking questions, that's nonsensical. You call out people for making claims though, yes. Different things. I've never made much by way of claims here, I've only tried to show glaring inconsistencies and contradictions in claims, such as the OP of this thread.

If you held an ideology apart from Christianity is wrong then you ought to be denigrating other Religions and Ideologies but you are not. In most of your posts you are either neutral or usually positive towards almost every other Religion and Belief and then take from them all and use each one in a new method to do what? Call Christianity out as being wrong...

Again, unless you stop strawmanning me, then there is not much I can do to help you

First statement in the whole thread, something wrong with Christianity...

In YOUR interpretation. This is what it actually says:

This is one thing that I will never understand about Christianity.

The Torah makes it pretty clear that God loves us and that there is no barrier between us and God, that there is nothing required of us but we seek redemption with God. The Torah's worldview is that we can atone our own sins because God is very forgiving and enjoins upon us righteousness and good-works.

The OP is based on the theology of the Torah, it is reasonable to question the validity of Christian truth-claims in light of the Torah (of which clearly does contradict it - which is usually what necessitates doctrines like "progressive revelation" etc).

Positively talking about the Torah or Judaism, in contrast to what?

To whatever claims to base itself of it's authority.

You later then quote an entire article from here https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/leviticus-1711/

Passing it off as your own words considering you didnt bother to quote it, aka you're a plagiarist, however it is in the same vein as the pattern you continue to use. Taking some Religion, any other Religion and using or speaking of it positively in an attempt to type cast it against Christianity.

I always change the font explicitly when I'm quoting something, nice try though.

Pretty sure I have made the reasoning of my responses clear, you are Troll who only cares to attack Christianity and thus arguing the merits of whatever new BS you think up as a way to denigrate Christ and Christianity isnt worth my or I am hoping others time (when they see thru your BS). You will literally taking opposing viewpoints and Religions and throw them into the mix in any attempt to make Christianity look bad, like using both the Torah and Marcionism which are polar opposites, in your attempt to call out Christians...

Hey, I can't argue with a good argument. Marcion, even though he was completely wrong, had a significant and undeniable point. He is a perfect reference point for understanding the nature of Christian truth claims. What his basic argument amounts to is similar to with why Jews rejected Jesus; because they had to be consistent.
Whilst I love some versions of Christianity (more pure ones), I do not think that it is an objectively consistent or coherent religion, I think it's arguments also tend to amount to emotions. I reach these views through my many (far more positive) conversations and debates with Christians over the years (and of course having been one myself at one point).

 

[DavidSon]

I would disagree with the idea that you dont have any interest in what uniform someone is wearing, their flag or their theme song. On this Board all I have seen you do is pick one certain team, one certain uniform, one certain flag and attack it from all angles and at any cost. As long as someone doesnt have on team Christian you have nothing to say to them. While you try and maintain that you dont have a flag or a uniform for yourself (which is what I am commenting on) you clearly have an agenda against one specific team. As I said your unwillingness to define your own team shows that your sole purpose on this site is to pick a certain team and denounce it....



I would believe that if you actually gave your definition of what the Truth is, aka defining your beliefs, but again that the thing you dont do thus I dont believe you care about any Truth. The only purpose of your time on this forum so far has been how can I try and argue against any and every aspect of Christianity that I can, which is exactly what we observe on this thread.

The supposed topic is barriers between you and god, the arguments are all 100% correlated to how Christianity is the only barrier. Nothing about any other Religion, Ideology, or Belief, nor are you offering ways to get to God, which of course would mean you would have to clearly define your beliefs on God, and the methods in which we get to Him. Since you are not here to do these things, you wont and havent done it, because your mission is to again, denounce Christianity in any possible way...



I have indeed questioned things, I havent always believed in Christ. In fact for 1/2 my life I rejected Christ, and part of that time I specifically imperatively denounced Christ and everything to do with Christianity. Then God showed me I was wrong, I repented and was Born Again at the age of 20. Since then I have continued to question many facets of my belief system and others belief systems, regardless I have found that there is still only one Truth. I am actually concerned with that One Truth and I dont take it lightly on speaking and directing others towards that Truth.

Here is the thing if you actually knew you found the Truth, and you cared about others, then you would be what you call a "Fundamentalist" which essentially is a derogatory term used by those who dislike Religion (specifically Christianity) to label those who actually believe they have the Truth and want to share that Truth with others. You dont really care about the Truth, its obvious, nor do you have any Truth to give or tell, or you would simply do it instead of make arguments against ideologies all day long.

If you observe most other peoples posts on this forum, they spend time expressing the TRUTHS they believe in as much or close to as much as they do arguing against others. You do the exact opposite, nothing is really True to you, you just have counter points against Christianity...

The only "Truth" you have shown yourself to hold is that you think Christianity is wrong, thats it, that is all we see from you, which was why I made the original suggestion which we both know you cant or wont do...



Again I dont believe you really are, if you were then you would clearly speak about the Truths that you have found and hold, instead you simply talk about what isnt True, which your main focus is on saying ARRGGHHH CHRISTIANITY IS WRONG!!!



Lets make it clear, my original response was purposeful, I have no care to argue the merits of your objections with Christianity, why? Because of the reasons I have stated, I believe you to be fake as can be, until I start seeing posts from you either clearly defining your ideologies of what Truth really is, or at least picking out other Faiths and Beliefs besides Christianity and have you try to argue against their merits and fundamental beliefs, then you are simply an eloquent troll.

I just happened to enter into this Thread because it was the most recent of your non stop haterade Posts and Threads you have created with the same sole purpose, devalue and demean Christianity and Christians and Christ Himself. In other words, I dont care about your Thread and happened in on it because it was the newest Thread, and it seemed the best place to call you out on your continual BS...



There is no contradiction, its basic understanding. If you had a Truth, if there was something that was Truth, then you would plainly state it. You refuse.

And it is clear that you are here to denigrate Christ and Christianity and Christians, look at the fact that one other Christians literally called you out on that (in nicer and less blatant ways) and the fact that you are only arguing with Christians. Non Christians are liking your posts and you are congratulating and agreeing with each other. If you werent here to denigrate Christ, Christianity and Christians then you wouldn't constantly be arguing against them...

If you held an ideology apart from Christianity is wrong then you ought to be denigrating other Religions and Ideologies but you are not. In most of your posts you are either neutral or usually positive towards almost every other Religion and Belief and then take from them all and use each one in a new method to do what? Call Christianity out as being wrong...



First statement in the whole thread, something wrong with Christianity...



Positively talking about the Torah or Judaism, in contrast to what?



Christianity, which you of course then attempt to denigrate by including the term idol, which is what? Jesus Christ.

You later then quote an entire article from here https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/leviticus-1711/

Passing it off as your own words considering you didnt bother to quote it, aka you're a plagiarist, however it is in the same vein as the pattern you continue to use. Taking some Religion, any other Religion and using or speaking of it positively in an attempt to type cast it against Christianity.

Then you say this:



Now once again trying to take another Religion (one which you never condemn) and do what with it?



Thats right use it as opposition to what? Judaism? Nah, Islam? Nah, Buddhism? Nah, Hinduism? Nah, Pantheism? Nah Atheism? Nah, just one thing and only one thing, only one ideology, one belief system, one Religion, as always and only Christianity.

I can literally show this thru out not only this Thread but every Thread you create or post on which in my view makes you nothing more than transparently fake and utterly dishonest in your approach to every topic. Thus why I see no point in debating whatever new BS you have to say against Christianity.

Instead, at least until you get real and post your actual beliefs and positions or at least fundamentally attack other Religions and Beliefs, I will just, when I am bored, shine a light on your hypocrisy and nonsense so others can clearly see you for what you are, a troll against Christianity. While you are eloquent and even intelligent, you are still simply a Troll...



Pretty sure I have made the reasoning of my responses clear, you are Troll who only cares to attack Christianity and thus arguing the merits of whatever new BS you think up as a way to denigrate Christ and Christianity isnt worth my or I am hoping others time (when they see thru your BS). You will literally taking opposing viewpoints and Religions and throw them into the mix in any attempt to make Christianity look bad, like using both the Torah and Marcionism which are polar opposites, in your attempt to call out Christians...



Then direct me to other Threads you have created that focus on calling out the problems you have with other Religions or Ideologies. Show me the here's why Islam and Muslims are liars. here's why Buddhism and Buddhist are liars, here's why Occultism and Occultists are liars, here's why Athiests and Atheism are liars, ect ect ect. When you make a comparable amount of Threads and Posts against all these other Religions and Ideologies, then maybe I will believe you, until then its obvious what your mission is here...

What in the world? You dive into a thread with ridiculous, emotional, irrelevant statements trying to attack someone's personal character... and they're the troll? Hilariousness.

You know if you can't handle an honest, historically based conversation about the Christian Religion why not head over to a purely Christian website? I could answer the question why you're not there though: those spots are dead. I looked up the top websites and they were empty. Why is that?

If the man Jesus was to see what Christianity has become... it's an embarrassment. It might hurt to break down the deception within Reformed Catholicism in the 21st century, but it's time brother. The pretenders, impostors, and false prophets who've used the name of Jesus and God to push their own agenda/ego are done for.

I was saying this earlier but in the academic world almost no one denies that Jesus lived. Muslims honor Muhammad in their prayers, Buddhists hail Siddhartha. The incongruity of Christianity is the alien theology built up by men, which has only divided people. We've got idiots on this site preaching that the God of Islam is a different entity than the God of the Christians! It's some dangerous shit man.

25% of the world are, or are related to, Christianity. The study and investigation into everything related to Jesus the Messiah will not stop. Every theory, every document will be shown to be what it is. There is truth, and only truth can set us free.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Its not an ad hominem, its a stated fact, you refuse to divulge your actual beliefs while continually telling others they have it all wrong. And its quite obvious why someone elses beliefs are important when confronting Religious Subjects, I believe you clearly know and understand why, or else you would simply state your beliefs clearly so others could judge the merits of your belief system in the same light you choose to judge everyone else. Well I take that back, basically just Biblical Christianity, that seems to the belief system you choose to disavow with every post and thread.

For others who may not understand why I would ask you to blatantly define your own beliefs, it is because when someone refuses to define their own beliefs on the subjects at hand it allows them to backpedal and change positions at any moment while not being true to anything, save any stated position against the ideology spoken about. For you that would be most always Christianity. If you were to simply define your belief system then we all could gauge the authenticity and legitimacy of your arguments. Instead we are just left with you always playing the Devils Advocate 24/7, which is a proper definition of your actions on these forums...

A perfect example of this is whenever I or others enter into a debate with my good friend @Artful Revealer, after dozens of debates with him, and the fact that he has literally written a Thread on this forum that clearly defines his position on Christianity and Religion, which is his own personal Religion based mainly on marcionism gnosticism. Since he has defined his base belief and positions everyone can now take what he says and recognize the context of what he has to say. He is in no position to be a constant Devils Advocate because if he isnt speaking something that encompasses his already stated position then he is an utter hypocrite.

If you would define your position as Islam, which I believe it mainly is although you wont outright admit it, then we can take half of the garbage you say against Christianity and show how you are being facetious in your attacks of Christianity because half of what you say would also be calling out the god of Islam or the Holy Text or ideologies within Islam. Since you wont admit your position then you are continually free to make all sorts of attacks from every angle regardless of whether the positions contradict each other or your basic Worldview on Religion.

You however understand all of this hence why you refuse to clarify any positive position you truly hold, because your purpose on this site isnt to direct others towards what you would consider the Truth, you are just here to denigrate Christ and those who believe in Him...



Anything you say bud...



I dont need you to do anything, I dont care what you do or dont do, I just was trying to bring the light to others your behavior and illegitimacy of any arguments you have made thus far. It is literally pointless to debate you on any topic because you will refuse to lay out your personal belief system so we can keep in context your viewpoints. Thus you will be in a position to not even believe anything you say, you will just say anything at all to make the brunt of your displeasure which is Christianity and Christians, the sole purpose of your time here.

Like I said since you refuse to do what literally everyone here has done, which is clearly define their positions as they debate, you have made and will continue to make all of your arguments invalid and not worthy of reading, agreeing with, defending or debating against.

Hopefully others will realize this as well instead of wasting their time debating you, because half of the stuff you say contradicts itself, which again is okay when the only purpose you have is to de-legitimatize Christianity by whatever means necessary.

It is essentially a form of Taqiya which I am sure you know all about...

Until the next time keep your curved sword sharp and at the ready....

Very insightful.

 

[Haich]

Very insightful.

You find the irrational ramblings of a scorned man insightful?

Lol!

 

[Haich]

I've enjoyed reading this thread, it was very informative. I don't see what the issue is, it was a clear well thought out argument presented to those who wanted to engage...

There seems to be a trend where some Christians feel attacked whenever someone posts a series of tough lines of questioning...

It's okay to disagree with each other but why take it all so personally? I don't see why the OP has to reveal their faith/beliefs as this wasn't the intention of this thread...the same energy you reserve to pick apart another's beliefs should be the same energy you use to pick apart your own beliefs and books...

It's Christians that are always preaching on this site, especially on other threads which have nothing to do with religion! All I'm saying is don't get butthurt when faced with strong arguments like the OP has presented...it's an opportunity to prove that your way is the truthful and correct way to God...

And before you say oh make a thread about islam blah blah...we have had countless threads where islam was discussed and muslims presented their arguments and quite frankly, it was the same old tired and addressed arguments that were brought forward by you guys...

 

[Haich]

I get that religion is a sensitive topic but I don't think we need to be offended or stirred when pressed...in fact, it's an opportunity to challenge your beliefs which I think is great...it only strengthens you as a believer...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You find the irrational ramblings of a scorned man insightful?

Lol!

Insightful inasmuch as it is evident from his interactions that @Infinityloop will side with any religion or ideology that opposed Christianity, including Islam, Hinduism and Gnosticism. As some of these positions contradict each other, it cannot be that he agrees with each of these positions so much as operate on the principle that the enemy of the enemy is my friend.