Barriers between you and God?

[Infinityloop]

This is one thing that I will never understand about Christianity.

The Torah makes it pretty clear that God loves us and that there is no barrier between us and God, that there is nothing required of us but we seek redemption with God. The Torah's worldview is that we can atone our own sins because God is very forgiving and enjoins upon us righteousness and good-works.

Christianity on the other hand, believes that God is irreproachable and that we are so far from God that we need an intermediary. It believes that humanity is so lost that it needs a blood sacrifice to atone for sin and heretical concepts that deny the Torah, such as:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ​

Aka, Jesus (according to the author of John) is gatekeeping and denying you the freedom of direct relationship with HaShem/Adonai that is very consistent in the Torah. This is a primary trait of Idolatry. "No you can't come to God, you have to come to this to get to God".
Any argument you throw at me, you have to remember, you are throwing at the Torah which is supposed to be from God.

The question is, even though the Torah shows a very forgiving and open view of God, why do Christians seem to think that there has to be a barrier between themselves and God, and why an idol is necessary to connect with God when God made itself very clear in Exodus 3:

“This is my name forever,
the name you shall call me
from generation to generation." (Exodus 3:15)​

The Christian "gospel" is a false gospel because it denies all of the basic facts about mans relation with God and the world around him. This conversation obviously differs only if you are a Marcionite-Christian.

 

[TokiEl]

This is one thing that I will never understand about Christianity.

The Torah makes it pretty clear that God loves us and that there is no barrier between us and God, that there is nothing required of us but we seek redemption with God. The Torah's worldview is that we can atone our own sins because God is very forgiving and enjoins upon us righteousness and good-works.

Christianity on the other hand, believes that God is irreproachable and that we are so far from God that we need an intermediary. It believes that humanity is so lost that it needs a blood sacrifice to atone for sin and heretical concepts that deny the Torah, such as:

Actually it's the Torah that demands a blood sacrifice to atone for sins.

Lev 17 11For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

 

[Infinityloop]

Actually it's the Torah that demands a blood sacrifice to atone for sins.

Lev 17 11For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

I know there are sacrificial offerings, that's Torah-101, offerings in the Torah are not required to forgive your sins, is the point.
God forgives quite liberally.
Offerings in ancient Israel were basically a form of worship, a form of thankfulness, an expression of praise to God.
Atonement of sins comes through repentance to God. Pure and simple.

 

[TokiEl]

I know there are sacrificial offerings, that's Torah-101, offerings in the Torah are not required to forgive your sins, is the point.
God forgives quite liberally.
Offerings in ancient Israel were basically a form of worship, a form of thankfulness, an expression of praise to God.

L0L no offerings in ancient Israel was a bloody mess.

 

[Lisa]

How many of these threads are you gonna start..basically saying the same wrong things?

 

[Infinityloop]

L0L no offerings in ancient Israel was a bloody mess.

Well sure, but that's not the point. Atonement is not through sacrifice. Albeit, you may find re-reading Cain and Able (Genesis 4) to be intriguing.

 

[TokiEl]

Well sure, but that's not the point. Atonement is not through sacrifice.

Yes it is according to the Torah.

Lev 17 11For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

 

[Mrs Dimble]

In the Old Testament , only the high priest stood in the Holy of Holies. He was the only one able to stand in the presence of God. When Jesus died, the curtain in the temple that enclosed this holy area was ripped in two. This symbolised the opening of the way into God's presence- now available to all believers.

 

[Wigi]

The Torah makes it pretty clear that God loves us and that there is no barrier between us and God, that there is nothing required of us but we seek redemption with God

It's false. To say that you need to deny circumcision and all the rules concerning sacrifice for atonement of sins in Leviticus.
Even to enter inside the Tabernacle, Levites needed to be sanctified with blood.

The Christian "gospel" is a false gospel because it denies all of the basic facts about mans relation with God and the world around him. This conversation obviously differs only if you are a Marcionite-Christian

A false is gospel is the gospel that says we can have a relationship with God through human efforts.

 

[Infinityloop]

In the Old Testament , only the high priest stood in the Holy of Holies. He was the only one able to stand in the presence of God. When Jesus died, the curtain in the temple that enclosed this holy area was ripped in two. This symbolised the opening of the way into God's presence- now available to all believers.

The question that begs me is, do you interpret this to mean that God is contained in a room? if so, I don't think that could be called the "God of the universe". Or maybe ritual isn't literal in that sense and you may not quite understand the role of these ritual practices of the ancient Israelites?

The ripping of the curtain was interesting symbology, yes, but it lends itself to a very incoherent theology that almost provides arguments for atheism.

 

[Infinityloop]

A false is gospel is the gospel that says we can have a relationship with God through human efforts.

Such as the death of a man?

 

[TokiEl]

A false is gospel is the gospel that says we can have a relationship with God through human efforts.

Well we can... but we can't remove our sins.

For that we need blood... God's blood.

 

[Infinityloop]

It's false. To say that you need to deny circumcision and all the rules concerning sacrifice for atonement of sins in Leviticus.
Even to enter inside the Tabernacle, Levites needed to be sanctified with blood.

And even if we interpret it in the cosmic way you are interpreting it, God forgave sins very easily in those conditions. Two things are required:
1. Repentance
2. An offering

This is not a God who holds people in contempt who seek repentance.
Read Isaiah 58, to see that there are other forms of atonement too.

The idea of the Old Testament as a whole, is that sin is forgiven by a parallel between an intention (repentance) and an act (offerings, fasting, etc). The concept of Sin, at the same time, does not hold the same connotations as it does in Christianity. God in the Torah does not have OCD.

 

[Kung Fu]

Needing "God's blood" sounds extremely pagan like. First off what kind of Almighty God bleeds and second, what's the difference between other pagan practices that use blood as a means to an end, which Christians are quick to judge as the work of the Devil?

 

[Infinityloop]

Well we can... but we can't remove our sins.

Yes you can, it's as easy as repenting to God.

 

[Infinityloop]

Needing "God's blood" sounds extremely pagan like.

Yes, well it WAS the most common practice among all middle eastern forms of Paganism, as well as the pre-Hindu Vedic religion.

All of the groups politicized against in the Old Testament did similar practices to the Israelites (according to the Old Testament) with the exception of that the surrounding nations attributed such practices to multiple deities instead of one.

 

[TokiEl]

The idea of the Old Testament as a whole, is that sin is forgiven by a parallel between an intention (repentance) and an act (offerings, fasting, etc).

Yes.

Luke 24 46Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

[TokiEl]

Yes you can, it's as easy as repenting to God.

Yes but that's because the Messiah is the sufficient sacrifice for sins.

 

[Wigi]

Needing "God's blood" sounds extremely pagan like. First off what kind of Almighty God bleeds and second, what's the difference between other pagan practices that use blood as a means to an end, which Christians are quick to judge as the work of the Devil?

Just asking, Do you consider circumcision as a pagan thing? If not why?

 

[Infinityloop]

Yes.

Luke 24 46Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Luke is in the New Testament