Did Jesus Abolish the law by fulfilling it?

[Red Sky at Morning]

Faith and Obedience.

There is a false belief that is held by many Christians today that faith has nothing to do with obedience. They think that if they have faith they have no need to be obedient to certain commands of God. Such a belief is directly opposed to the plain teaching of the Word of God.

One of the great outstanding figures in Biblical history as an example of faith is Abraham. His faith was an obedient faith. Paul wrote in the book of Hebrews: "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going" (Hebrews 11: 8). The call was to leave his home and land; but he obeyed. Had he disobeyed he would never have become "the father of the faithful," "the friend of God." In the story of Abraham's great trial, when he was called to sacrifice his beloved son, Isaac, we have another instance of his obedient faith. The wonderful promise given to Abraham, "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,” was given, the Lord told him, "because you have obeyed My voice.” See Genesis 22:2, 18. The reason why so many of the children of Israel failed to enjoy the blessings promised to Abraham's seed was, we are told, "because of disobedience" (Hebrews 4: 6).

Would you agree with me @phipps in concluding that genuine faith leads to obedience. To separate out these is rather like splitting the atom - difficult and dangerous!

 

[phipps]

Would you agree with me @phipps in concluding that genuine faith leads to obedience. To separate out these is rather like splitting the atom - difficult and dangerous!

That is what I've been saying all along here. Obedience proves our faith and trust in God. Obedience is the fruit of our faith. We can't be faithful without obedience which shows in our works.

 

[floss]

That is what I've been saying all along here. Obedience proves our faith and trust in God. Obedience is the fruit of our faith. We can't be faithful without obedience which shows in our works.

You can be obedience without trusting in God. Faith has no proof. You can have faith/trust in God without anything to show for it. God will never ask for a certificate of salvation. You're only fooling yourself if you think you can prove something that cannot be seen (Faith) by something that can be seen (Works). Good works are proof of your love for God, not faith. And yes, you can have good works without loving God as well.

 

[Tidal]

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.".....

Does "fulfil" mean to do away with? The Cambridge Dictionary tells me that fulfil means to "do something that is expected, hoped for, or promised, or to cause it to happen:" So doing something that is expected or causing it to happen is not abolishing it.

Jesus's arrival was prophesied multiple times in the Old T, so my understanding is that his arrival simply fulfilled those prophecies, nothing more, nothing less..

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You can be obedience without trusting in God. Faith has no proof. You can have faith/trust in God without anything to show for it. God will never ask for a certificate of salvation. You're only fooling yourself if you think you can prove something that cannot be seen (Faith) by something that can be seen (Works). Good works are proof of your love for God, not faith. And yes, you can have good works without loving God as well.

Perhaps the way I see it is that genuine faith will always lead to good works (as judged by the Lord seeing our hearts) but that good works as an external activity without genuine faith cannot save. I.e. Dead works.

 

[phipps]

You can be obedience without trusting in God. Faith has no proof. You can have faith/trust in God without anything to show for it. God will never ask for a certificate of salvation. You're only fooling yourself if you think you can prove something that cannot be seen (Faith) by something that can be seen (Works). Good works are proof of your love for God, not faith. And yes, you can have good works without loving God as well.

What complete and utter nonsense floss. Sometimes I wonder if we read the same Bible at all. If someone is obedient without trusting God, then they are not Christians are they? They don't believe in God so it doesn't count.

How can someone have faith and not be obedient? "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" (James 2:17). This means faith on its own without fruits is dead. And works on their own without faith is also dead. Faith and works go hand in hand.

Faith cannot be seen but the evidence of it can. Hebrews 11:1-3 says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible." You should read the rest of the chapter because it talks about the faith of Abel, Abraham, the Patriarchs, Moses and their faith is always shown in their obedience and works.

You don't seem to understand the kind of obedience the Bible talks about. When we come to Christ, He gives us a new heart, one that loves Him and desires to serve Him. We submit to Him and He gives us the power to do His will. We continue to obey, He empowers us to do more of His will and it goes on like that.

Philippians 2:13, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

I'm not talking about obedience that does not come from God. There are many good people who are like that but without God it doesn't count. We can't please God without faith in Him. "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6).

This doctrine of yours is satanic and its trying to make Christians think they don't have to obey, just believe and they will be saved. That is contrary to the Word of God which tells us, "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3-4). I've posted so much scripture to you that proves obedience cannot be removed from salvation. No one who disobeys God will make it to eternal life, full stop no comma! You've chosen to reject God's Word on this subject not me! I have merely told you the truth of God. I don't know if you're fooling yourself intentionally or if you really don't understand what the Bible teaches.

 

[phipps]

Jesus's arrival was prophesied multiple times in the Old T, so my understanding is that his arrival simply fulfilled those prophecies, nothing more, nothing less..

Yes Jesus was prophesied and He fulfilled those prophecies but Jesus is God. He existed before this world was created. He created this World and He sacrificed His life for us. The whole Bible is about Jesus. So there is much more about Jesus for all eternity.

 

[Kung Fu]

The whole Bible is about Jesus. So there is much more about Jesus for all eternity.

That's like your opinion dude.

 

[phipps]

That's like your opinion dude.

No, its not my opinion, its the truth. Life without Jesus is meaningless.

 

[Kung Fu]

No, its not my opinion, its the truth.

Lol. It's like your opinion dude.

 

[phipps]

Lol. It's like your opinion dude.

If my opinion is the opinion of the Bible, then yes its my opinion and its the truth. I had just edited my previous post to you to add that life without Jesus is meaningless. That is the message of the Bible. We need Christ to have meaning in our lives eternally.

 

[Kung Fu]

If my opinion is the opinion of the Bible, then yes its my opinion and its the truth. I had just edited my previous post to you to add that life without Jesus is meaningless. That is the message of the Bible. We need Christ to have meaning in our lives eternally.

I already have Jesus in my life. I'm good

 

[phipps]

I already have Jesus in my life. I'm good

Okay that's good as we all need Jesus in our lives but its also true that many truths of God's Word are revealed to us at different times in our lives as we grow in Christ. You haven't yet come to understand that the entire Bible is about Jesus. He is the theme of the Bible. I pray that you will because its the truth.

John 1:1-5, 14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Okay that's good as we all need Jesus in our lives but its also true that many truths of God's Word are revealed to us at different times in our lives as we grow in Christ. You haven't yet come to understand that the entire Bible is about Jesus. He is the theme of the Bible. I pray that you will because its the truth.

John 1:1-5, 14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

I like this passage in Judges 13


15And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. 16And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD. 17And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? 18And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? [pe-li] 19So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on. 20For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.

21But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. 22And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God. 23But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these.

There is something very significant about the word pe-li, as Zev Porat explores:-

 

[floss]

Perhaps the way I see it is that genuine faith will always lead to good works (as judged by the Lord seeing our hearts) but that good works as an external activity without genuine faith cannot save. I.e. Dead works.

I think that's the problem. I don't believe genuine faith will always lead to good works. Most of the time it will but it's not a guarantee thing. It wouldn't surprise me there are many saved by a bare minimum of faith with zero works as proof.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I think that's the problem. I don't believe genuine faith will always lead to good works. Most of the time it will but it's not a guarantee thing. It wouldn't surprise me there are many saved by a bare minimum of faith with zero works as proof.

I agree with that too -

In fact, there is a very clear passage that explores it! There is a difference between the judgement of a believer themselves and the judgement of their works...

1 Corinthians 3

Christ the Only Foundation

(Isaiah 28:14-22; 1 Peter 2:4-12)
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[floss]

What complete and utter nonsense floss. Sometimes I wonder if we read the same Bible at all. If someone is obedient without trusting God, then they are not Christians are they? They don't believe in God so it doesn't count.

How can someone have faith and not be obedient? "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" (James 2:17). This means faith on its own without fruits is dead. And works on their own without faith is also dead. Faith and works go hand in hand.

Faith cannot be seen but the evidence of it can. Hebrews 11:1-3 says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible." You should read the rest of the chapter that talks about the faith of Abel, Abraham, the Patriarchs, Moses and their faith is always shown in their obedience and works.

You don't seem to understand the kind of obedience the Bible talks about. When we come to Christ, He gives us a new heart, one that loves Him and desires to serve Him. We submit to Him and He gives us the power to do His will. We continue to obey, He empowers us to do more of His will and it goes on like that.

Philippians 2:13, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

I'm not talking about obedience that does not come from God. There are many good people who are like that but without God it doesn't count. We can't please God without faith in Him. "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6).

This doctrine of yours is satanic and its trying to make Christians think they don't have to obey, just believe and they will be saved. That is contrary to the Word of God which tells us, "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3-4). I've posted so much scripture to you that proves obedience cannot be removed from salvation. No one who disobeys God will make it to eternal life, full stop no comma! You've chosen to reject God's Word on this subject not me! I have merely told you the truth of God. I don't know if you're fooling yourself intentionally or if you really don't understand what the Bible teaches.

We do have a different Bible if you aren't aware by now.

Your Bible said you're "being save", mine said I'm saved and sealed.

 

[phipps]

I like this passage in Judges 13


15And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. 16And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD. 17And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? 18And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? [pe-li] 19So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on. 20For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.

21But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. 22And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God. 23But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these.

There is something very significant about the word pe-li, as Zev Porat explores:-

I posted about this in my forum about Michael the Arch Angel. Not about the word pe-li but "the Angel of the Lord" in the Bible. Sometimes its applied to the angel Gabriel who appeared to Daniel, Zacharias, and Mary. But Gabriel is called "an" angel of the Lord. He is not referred to as "the" Angel of the Lord. Jesus is "the Angel of the Lord." And He appears quite a bit in the Old Testament including the scriptures you've posted about Samson's birth.

 

[Tidal]

Yes Jesus was prophesied and He fulfilled those prophecies but Jesus is God...

I'm puzzled, because if Jesus was God, why did he say he wasn't? for example-

"I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )
"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
"Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
"I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
"I am going to my Father and your Father, my God and your God" (John 20:17)
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46)

And of course God himself said - "This is my beloved son, listen to him" (Matt 17:5)

 

[phipps]

I think that's the problem. I don't believe genuine faith will always lead to good works. Most of the time it will but it's not a guarantee thing. It wouldn't surprise me there are many saved by a bare minimum of faith with zero works as proof.

Genuine faith where one completely believes, trusts and submits to Christ leads to good works that are acceptable by God. What are good works according to the Bible? They are the fruit of a person with faith. We will never become quite perfect, but our lives will trend in the direction of “love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" (Galatians 5:22-23).

Those who are defiant of God, who neither know nor trust Him, have little interest in doing His will. But God's plan for those who do love Him is pretty clear: “We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them” (Ephesians 2:10).