Paganism and Protestantism.

[phipps]

So the order is conviction, baptism, then conversion?

Conviction is conversion. Its the beginning of the conversion process which continues all our lives after baptism. So its conviction/conversion then baptism. After baptism we receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lisa]

Meditation means different things to different people depending on their religion. That is why I posted what meditation is biblically.

Must have missed that...

Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17–19) To fulfil l means to “carry out.” So Jesus came to carry out the law and not abolish it. He came to show us how to obey and live according to the law. He obeyed the law and never once sinned and He was our example.

Paul wrote, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!" (Romans 6:14-15). When we have grace we fulfil the law as Jesus did. We don't break or disobey the law. The Bible is clear we have to obey the law. No one is going to make it who doesn't obey the law.

How do you obey they law then? I mean what did Jesus die for if we are still obeying the law?

 

[Thunderian]

After baptism we receive the Holy Spirit.

When did the thief on the cross receive the Spirit?

 

[Douglas Summers]

Conviction is conversion. Its the beginning of the conversion process which continues all our lives after baptism. So its conviction/conversion then baptism. After baptism we receive the Holy Spirit.

It is conversion first.. Conversion is the act of man agreeing with God and having a change of mind. Next is regeneration, that is what God does the convert who call upon His name. Convert means to turn from or turn again.. On the Day of Pentecost in Acts over 5000 people received the Holy Spirit (Regeneration) and Baptism was not even performed at that time.

 

[phipps]

God did not make the Sabbath as a day of worship, it was simply a day of rest for man and beast and it was given to Israel, God made it for man. The reason the Church worship on Sunday is because That is when the Apostles and born again believers meet, that is in Scripture. Nothing the Catholics do has anything to do with the body of Christ. They are Nicolaitans that Christ warned us about in the warnings to the Churches in Revelations. The Church is not Israel. There was in the past in the USA that was called the Blue Law, and Saturday was a day of rest and Sunday was a day of worship for those who believed in it.

He made it a day of worship. "Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings" (Leviticus 23:3). The word “convocation” means a public meeting, assembly, or gathering. Here God added a detail about the Sabbath: It’s also to be a time for holy assemblies (i.e., worship services). The Israelites worshipped on the Sabbath. Jesus too always went to the synagogue on the Sabbath as was His tradition. "So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read" (Luke 4:16).

"Now it happened on another Sabbath, also, that He entered the synagogue and taught. And a man was there whose right hand was withered" (Luke 6:6). So it is a day of worship and rest. Yes it was made for man but God told us exactly what to do on that day.

That apostles meeting on Sunday does not mean we worship on the first day of the week. The apostles themselves worshipped on the Sabbath.

Yes the Church is Israel. All those who get saved and accept Jesus as their personal Saviour become Jewish according to the Bible.

 

[Thunderian]

Yes the Church is Israel.

Which tribe are you a member of?

 

[Lisa]

Yes the Church is Israel. All those who get saved and accept Jesus as their personal Saviour become Jewish according to the Bible.

That’s not true..we don’t become Jewish. You are totally wrong on some of your theology phipps. I think you’re the one that needs to listen here instead of endlessly cutting and pasting stuff that isn’t true.

You aren’t helping God here like you think.

 

[phipps]

When did the thief on the cross receive the Spirit?

I don't know but clearly He did otherwise he wouldn't be saved. There are exceptions in the Bible. In Acts 10:44–48 there are people who received the Holy spirit before they were baptised but still needed to be baptised by water. So the exceptions do not cancel out what most people have to do.

 

[Thunderian]

I don't know but clearly He did otherwise he wouldn't be saved. There exceptions in the Bible. In Acts 10:44–48 there are people who received the Holy spirit before they were baptised but still needed to be baptised by water. So the exceptions do not cancel out what most people have to do.

But if, as you say, the conversion process begins with baptism, then the thief was never converted. How could he have been?

 

[phipps]

Which tribe are you a member of?

Romans 11:17-18, "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you."

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Tribes don't matter, what matters is being part of God's true Church, Israel.

 

[phipps]

But if, as you say, the conversion process begins with baptism, then the thief was never converted. How could he have been?

We need the Holy Spirit to be converted. No one gets converted without the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit Himself who is sent to “convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment” (John 16:8). When we are converted we have not made a full committent yet but after baptism we've made a public declaration of our commitment to Christ and we get the gift of Holy Spirit. So baptism is not just accepting the forgiveness of Jesus, it is accepting the transforming power of Jesus to help us repent and obey in the first place. In baptism, "our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin" (Romans 6:6).

“Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

The promise of the Holy Spirit is given to those who believe and are baptized. It is conditional to repentance and obedience.

"...the Holy Spirit whom God hath given to them that obey Him" (Acts 5:32).

But there are exceptions like the thief on the cross.

 

[phipps]

Must have missed that...


How do you obey they law then? I mean what did Jesus die for if we are still obeying the law?

Must have missed that...

Its hard to miss this. "Biblically we are to meditate on God’s law (Psalm 1:2), on the works of God (Psalm 77:12), and on things that are true, noble, just, pure, lovely, and of good report (Philippians 4:8)." Plus I have a forum on this subject with more information.

How do you obey they law then? I mean what did Jesus die for if we are still obeying the law?

Jesus would not have died on the cross if the law would have been done away with. He would have changed the law or done away with it instead of dying on the cross. He obeyed the law and died on the cross which confirmed we have to obey the law.

None of us can obey the law without God. We need to have grace to obey the law. The law points out sin, and grace saves from sin. The law is the will of God, and grace is the power to do the will of God.

 

[Thunderian]

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

If no one in the body of Christ is a Jew, how is the body of Christ Israel?

 

[phipps]

It is conversion first.. Conversion is the act of man agreeing with God and having a change of mind. Next is regeneration, that is what God does the convert who call upon His name. Convert means to turn from or turn again.. On the Day of Pentecost in Acts over 5000 people received the Holy Spirit (Regeneration) and Baptism was not even performed at that time.

I didn't see this response. Yes conversion means agreeing with God and turning from sin and we need to continue to make the choice to stay on the right path. Of course we can't do it on our own. We need God to keep on the right path but we need to make a conscious choice everyday to stay on the right path then ask God for the strength to do so.

Where in the Bible does it say the people who received the Holy Spirit did not get baptised? Acts 2 which is the chapter that talks about Pentecost day says the apostles received the Holy Spirit. Then in verses 40-47, "And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need. So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved."

 

[Lisa]

Its hard to miss this. "Biblically we are to meditate on God’s law (Psalm 1:2), on the works of God (Psalm 77:12), and on things that are true, noble, just, pure, lovely, and of good report (Philippians 4:8)." Plus I have a forum on this subject with more information.

Sure but when people think of meditation today they think of this..
to engage in mental exercise(such as concentration on one's breathing or repetition of a mantra) for the purpose of reaching a heightened level of spiritual awareness

Not what the Bible is talking about which is thinking on the scripture they read and praying to God about it.

He obeyed the law and died on the cross which confirmed we have to obey the law

No that doesn’t conform we have to obey the law. It confirms that he fulfilled the law which is conferred onto us when we believe in Jesus. We don’t have the law to obey anymore...Jesus did it for us. However as you know that doesn’t mean we don’t live under Jesus’ yoke..

Matthew‬ ‭11:29-30‬ ‭
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.​

‭‭

 

[Thunderian]

But there are exceptions like the thief on the cross.

What scripture do you use to explain this exception? If there are any exceptions to Old Testament commandments, they are spelled out. For instance, in Deuteronomy 14, Israelites are commanded to bring the title of their fields and flocks to a place designated by the Lord and consume them there, but if they are unable to transport the animals and produce that makes up their tithe, they are able to convert it to cash, and bring that before the Lord instead.

You see, whenever God gives an exception, he spells it out. So where does God spell out the exception to baptism as necessary for salvation?

 

[phipps]

If no one in the body of Christ is a Jew, how is the body of Christ Israel?

I posted the verses about the Olive tree which show that wild olives (Gentiles) were grafted into and became partakers of the olive tree (Israel). So Gentiles become part of Israel when they become saved and accept Jesus as their personal Saviour.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" means it doesn't matter whether one is a Jew or Greek (Gentiles). They are all one is Jesus Christ.

Being a Jew in the New Covenant/Testament is not about genetics. It never will be again all throughout eternity. As long as a person accepts Jesus as their personal Saviour, they are Jews. There are literal Jews in Israel as well as Gentiles from around the world and they make up Israel/God's church. I don't want to discuss more than this with you because we'll be going round in circles.

 

[Thunderian]

I posted the verses about the Olive tree which show that wild olives (Gentiles) were grafted into and became partakes o the olive tree (Israel). So Gentiles become part of Israel when they become saved and accept Jesus as their personal Saviour.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" means it doesn't matter whether one is a Jew or Greek (Gentiles). They are all one is Jesus Christ.

Being a Jew in the New Covenant/Testament is not about genetics. It never wil be again all through out eternity. As long as some one accepts Jesus as their personal Saviour, they are Jews. There are literal Jews in Israel as well as Gentiles from around the world and they make up Israel/God's church. I don't want to discuss more than this with you because we'll be going round in circles.

Do you not understand the question? You say we become Jews when we are receive Christ, but you quote a verse that says there are no Jews in the body of Christ. Is that not a contradiction?

 

[phipps]

Sure but when people think of meditation today they think of this..
to engage in mental exercise(such as concentration on one's breathing or repetition of a mantra) for the purpose of reaching a heightened level of spiritual awareness

Not what the Bible is talking about which is thinking on the scripture they read and praying to God about it.



No that doesn’t conform we have to obey the law. It confirms that he fulfilled the law which is conferred onto us when we believe in Jesus. We don’t have the law to obey anymore...Jesus did it for us. However as you know that doesn’t mean we don’t live under Jesus’ yoke..

Matthew‬ ‭11:29-30‬ ‭
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.​

‭‭

Sure but when people think of meditation today they think of this..
to engage in mental exercise(such as concentration on one's breathing or repetition of a mantra) for the purpose of reaching a heightened level of spiritual awareness

Do you speak for all people?

Not what the Bible is talking about which is thinking on the scripture they read and praying to God about it.

Some people and I know. That's why I have a whole forum on this subject.

No that doesn’t conform we have to obey the law. It confirms that he fulfilled the law which is conferred onto us when we believe in Jesus. We don’t have the law to obey anymore...Jesus did it for us. However as you know that doesn’t mean we don’t live under Jesus’ yoke..

I just explained what fulfil means and I repeat, it means to carry out. In the thesaurus fulfil means words like, accomplish, achieve, execute. Jesus carried out the law by obeying it plus He preached we have to obey it too. I am now going to post some scripture to show how important obedience is. They will be Jesus' words mostly.

Matthew 4:4, "But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

John 9:31, "Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him."

John 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 14:23-24, "Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me."

John 15:7, "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you."

John 15:10, "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."

John 15:14, "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you."

“By the law is the knowledge of sin” (Romans 3:20). Remember sin is the transgression of the law (1 john 3:4). So when we sin we are transgressing the law and that is wrong.

We'll be judged by the law (John 12:48; Romans 2:12-13; 2 Corinthians 5:10; James 2:12-13; Revelation 20:12-13).

Also all those that will make it to eternal life will be those that obey the law.

Matthew 19:17, "But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Revelation 14:12, "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

Its clear beyond any doubt we have to obey the law. No one can claim to love God and not obey His law. Obedience is the fruit, or result, of salvation. The Holy Spirit gives us power to live godly, righteous lives. Obedience is one of the conditions to being saved.

Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

I've shown you so much scripture above that makes it clear we have to be obedient to God's law. And there is plenty more from the whole Bible that makes it very clear we have to obey the law. So these verses cannot be saying we don't have to obey the law can they? They are talking about peace of mind.

 

[phipps]

What scripture do you use to explain this exception? If there are any exceptions to Old Testament commandments, they are spelled out. For instance, in Deuteronomy 14, Israelites are commanded to bring the title of their fields and flocks to a place designated by the Lord and consume them there, but if they are unable to transport the animals and produce that makes up their tithe, they are able to convert it to cash, and bring that before the Lord instead.

You see, whenever God gives an exception, he spells it out. So where does God spell out the exception to baptism as necessary for salvation?

Do I need scripture to explain every exception to me? Can't I use the brains God created me with? Jesus commanded the apostles to baptise in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Bible says we must get baptised and Jesus did it as our example too. On top of that the Bible shows many other baptisms in the Bible. Yet Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). And he was never baptised because he couldn't. Those who can't be baptised for whatever reason, Jesus' baptism will be sufficient. Most people can be baptised and should as demonstrated by Jesus' baptism and other examples in the New Testament. Most of those baptisms took place after Jesus and the thief were crucified. So the thief is the exception, that is obvious. It doesn't need spelling out honestly.

God does not spell out everything to us, we have to look at prophecy especially end time prophecy to know that. Some things we have got to understand with help from the Holy Spirit, studying the Word and using our brains.