Paganism and Protestantism.

[phipps]

The first thing that most protestants do that is pagan (although many aren't aware), is worship on Sunday. Sunday worship was brought to Christianity through Catholicism which came directly from paganism. I'm not going to explain how that happened because I have a forum on the Sabbath that explains all that and more. The point is Catholicism claims responsibility for the change from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week in their Catechism. They claim Sunday worship is the mark of their authority.

During the protestant reformation, protestants claimed they followed the Bible and the Bible only (Sola Scriptura). Yet most of them still kept Sunday as the day of worship which is inconsistent with their claims and not biblical. One of the reasons for protestants continuing to observe Sunday as the sabbath was because the day of worship was changed from Saturday to Sunday about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. So they continued the custom, even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon any explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects that broke away - "like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair."

Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920 wrote, "'If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church."

Monsignor Louis Segur, 'Plain Talk about the Protestantism of Today';, p. 213, "The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church."

Many Christians follow the man made tradition/custom of Sunday worship and don't know that they are breaking the fourth commandment about the Sabbath. They've just accepted that Sunday is the day of Worship without question. Many have not studied the Bible for themselves, looked at the evidence and determined for themselves whether the Bible supports the claim that God transferred the sacredness of His Sabbath to Sunday as the Catholics and Sunday observing Protestants claim.

By most protestants keeping Sunday as the day of worship, they are paying homage to Catholicism as Monsignor Louis Segur says above, and therefore paying homage to paganism where Sunday worship was adopted from.

 

[phipps]

Infant baptism

I'm not going to post too much on this because I have a forum on baptism too.

Some protestant religions still baptise babies which is a tradition/custom that comes from the Catholic Church too. It too was adopted from paganism.

Biblically baptism is the outward/public demonstration of an inner conscious decision of a Christian to commit themselves to God, to obey, repent and seek God's forgiveness and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So baptism is the beginning of the conversion process. Babies cannot make conscious decisions to commit their lives to the obedience and service of God; they do not understand what sin is or how they sin.

So those protestant religions that baptise infants are paying homage to Catholicism and to paganism where infant baptism was adopted from.

 

[Infinityloop]

Well considering that Christianity is a gentile (pagan) religion...

 

[phipps]

Speaking in tongues.

Many protestants especially those from charismatic churches, believe that to speak in tongues is to display an open and outward sign that the one speaking in tongues is a Christian filled with the Holy Spirit. But does the Bible declare ALL that have the Holy Spirit will do this?

What is speaking in tongues biblically?

It is speaking in different languages. The gift of speaking in tongues is the ability to speak in another language instantaneously without having to live in the country and/or study it. The day of Pentecost in the book of Acts 2:1-12 makes this clear. The day of Pentecost was a Jewish holy day that fell 50 days after Passover. Devoted Israelites would come from all over the Roman empire to worship in Jerusalem. God chose this timely opportunity to bestow this gift of tongues upon the disciples so they could preach to the visiting Jews in their native languages. The Holy Spirit fell upon the disciples and they spoke in the native tongues of the visiting Jews even though they'd never spoken those languages before.

It was shocking for the visitors to hear the Word of God in their native tongues. "Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?” (verses 7-12). So speaking in tongues is a real language given by God to break the language barrier for the proclamation of the Gospel.

In the Bible, in 1 Corinthians 12:27-31, Paul writes about the gifts of the Spirit and one of them is the gift of tongues. He says, "Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way." So its not true that all Christians should speak in tongues. We all get different gifts after we receive the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:11 boldly proclaims, "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." The gifts are divided among Christians as God sees fit.

Also Galatians 5:22-23 says, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law." Its important Christians understand that the fruits of the Spirit is not gifts including speaking in tongues. The fruits of the Spirit are really the character of Jesus, produced by the Holy Spirit in the followers of Christ. When Christ dwells in us, we will "walk by the Spirit, and will not carry out the desire of the flesh."

What some protestant churches (especially charismatic churches) do when they "speak in tongues" is called Glossolalia or Ecstatic language. Glossolalia is defined in the dictionary as "the phenomenon of (apparently) speaking in an unknown language, especially in religious worship. It is practised especially by Pentecostal and charismatic Christians." This practice was and is associated with paganism.

"Ecstatic language was a common form of worship in pagan temples.Vincent Bridges: "Paganism in Provence," Journal of the Western Mystery Tradition (2004). It was well established in Ancient Byblos (1100 BC). Plato (429-347 BC) mentions it as a phenomenon in his time. He tells us that a person under divine possession received utterances and visions that the receiver did not understand. These utterances were sometimes accompanied by physical healing of people present. Virgil (70-19 BC) tells us that the Sibylline priestess, when in prayer, united her spirit with the god Apollo and spoke in strange tongues. Mortimer J. Adler, Great Books of the Western World Volume 3 (Encyclopedia Britannica Inc., 1952)."

"The Mithra cult of the Persians, the Osiris cult of the Pharaohs, the Dionysian, Eulusinian, and Orphic cults cradled in Macedonia, Thrace and Greece, all record the same phenomenon of "speaking in tongues". Also, Lucian of Samosata (A.D. 120-198) describes in "De Dea Syria" an example of ecstatic tongues (glossolalia) being spoken by a "roamer", who believed in "June" the Syrian goddess. This should cause great alarm to these millions of Christians today speaking in this ecstatic tongues, that their utterances greatly resemble the ecstatic tongues spoken by the people in these ancient cults.

"Believe it or not, speaking in ecstatic tongues is not just confined to Christian circles. Studies have revealed that ecstatic utterances is present in many non Christian religions all over the world. It is practiced in China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, Siberia, Arabia, Burma, and Arctic regions as well as many other places. Glossolalia is found among the Eskimos, Japanese séances in Hokkaido, in a small cult led by Genji Yanagide of Moji City, the shamans in Ethiopia in the zar cult and various spirits in Haitian Voodoo, and is also found extensively in African tribal religions."

I remember watching people in a church in my country shaking, jumping, falling on the ground and gyrating, spinning on the ground, laughing uncontrollably etc while babbling. That kind of "speaking in tongues" is a counterfeit tongue that is an insult to the Holy Spirit. The reason God gives us His Spirit is to restore in us His image-not to rob us of all dignity and self control! Its also of no benefit at all to the one bubbling unintelligible things or to anyone listening. God does not give gifts that have no purpose at all. Paul criticised the practice of speaking in tongues just for the sake of it. He contrasted between two gifts: speaking in tongues where nobody but the speaker and God can understand, and the practice of inspired speaking (prophesying) where everybody can understand and can benefit (1 Corinthians 14:1-5). If I spoke my African language and you spoke English, you wouldn’t understand me when I talked to you—only God would. And what use is that to you if I’m saying something important? Paul explained to the church in Corinth that speaking in tongues was a legitimate gift, but only worthwhile if used to edify someone else by speaking in their language so they could understand!

"So as we can clearly see, this speaking in ecstatic tongues did not come about through belief in the true Creator God, or through studying the Bible. So we must ask, if speaking in Bible tongues is the God given ability of speaking in another world language in order to further the true gospel message, then how can this glossolalia, which many people speak who don't even know the gospel be from God? It can't be. We receive "power" from only two sources, God or Satan. It's that black and white. So if this ecstatic tongues is not from God and does not further the gospel message, then it can only be from one other source, and that is Satan."

History of Ecstatic Tongues - Glossolalia

A brief history of ecstatic tongues, also known as glossolalia. Where did this ecstatic tongues originate?

www.bible-speaking-in-tongues.com

Understanding Tongues | Free Book Library | Amazing Facts

What should we expect from an outpouring of the Holy Spirit? Is it always associated with a manifestation of the gift of tongues? Find out the answers to these questions and many others in this dynamic little book.

www.amazingfacts.org

 

[Lisa]

As Christians does it really matter what day we worship on...or does it matter that we worship?

Nope on the infant baptism..

I went to a church where the pastors wife spoke in a tongue...no one could understand her..so I thought that was iffy. And it kind of made sense that she did it..her husband was the rock star of the church..I thought she liked the attention.

 

[phipps]

Well considering that Christianity is a gentile (pagan) religion...

True Christianity is not pagan at all. Sadly most Christian religions have introduced pagan rituals into Christianity that have nothing to do with God and His Word.

 

[Infinityloop]

True Christianity is not pagan at all. Sadly most Christian religions have introduced pagan rituals into Christianity that have nothing to do with God and His Word.

No, I'm just hinting at the fact that the concept of "a Pagan" originated from the concept of a Gentile (non-Jew), being that Christians don't seem to grasp what many of their conceptions of things really mean and how they originate.
And yes it was through Pagans (Gentiles) that Christianity grew. The earlier Christians were Jews, sure, but it was Gentiles that ultimately took over the religion (whether it be Romans or Americans etc)

 

[phipps]

No, I'm just hinting at the fact that the concept of "a Pagan" originated from the concept of a Gentile (non-Jew), being that Christians don't seem to grasp what many of their conceptions of things really mean and how they originate.
And yes it was through Pagans (Gentiles) that Christianity grew. The earlier Christians were Jews, sure, but it was Gentiles that ultimately took over the religion (whether it be Romans or Americans etc)

I see. You're right to a certain degree. In the Old Testament God's chosen people the Jews believed and worshipped God. All the other nations and peoples who weren't from Israel were pagan (heathen, Gentiles) except some individuals who were introduced to God and became part of Israel.

However it was always God's plan that the gospel be preached to all nations around the world most of which were pagan. In the meantime most of Israel rejected Jesus as the Messiah and He told them they were no longer a chosen nation and the gospel would be given to another nation (Gentiles). Individual Jews accepted Christ as their Messiah and He used them to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. The New Testament explains that all who become Christians are Jews whether they are genetically Jewish or not. So Christianity grew with mainly Gentiles and some Jews who had accepted Christ as their personal Saviour. They weren't pagans then, they were Jews spiritually and accepted into God's family.

 

[phipps]

Spiritual formation.

Spiritual formation is a movement within protestantism that is about becoming more Spiritual. It suggests that there are various ways to get closer to God and and be like Him.

There is nothing wrong in wanting to get closer to God and becoming more like Him. The Bible tells us how we can do that using the right spiritual disciplines like prayer, fasting, studying the Bible, meditating on God's Word etc.

Sadly Spiritual formation has brought in spiritual disciplines from paganism that are about transforming people by entering altered realms of consciousness. It is about looking within and stilling and emptying the mind. It is seeking an experience with God through various “spiritual exercises” that are somehow supposed to “sanctify”a person, who then will know victory. It is a subtle and deceptive substitute for genuine, biblical spiritual disciplines and sanctification. Many sincere Christians are entering into a pagan spiritual lifestyle without realising it. Their desire to draw near to God is leading them to mystic and even occult rituals hidden among godly practices.

These are some of the spiritual disciplines within the spiritual formation movement that we need to be wary of because they involve change of consciousness or altered consciousness and are not biblical:

Positive Confession, Contemplative or centring prayer meditation, Breath Prayer, Jesus prayer, Lectio Divina, Labyrinth walking, Spiritual direction, Taize Chanting, Yoga. There are many more but I can't mention them all. These forms of spiritual disciplines and meditation are not biblical and are used in many pagan religions around the world.

Biblically we are to meditate on God’s law (Psalm 1:2), on the works of God (Psalm 77:12), and on things that are true, noble, just, pure, lovely, and of good report (Philippians 4:8).

 

[Lisa]

Spiritual formation.

Spiritual formation is a movement within protestantism that is about becoming more Spiritual. It suggests that there are various ways to get closer to God and and be like Him.

There is nothing wrong is wanting to get closer to God and becoming more like Him. The Bible tells us how we can do that using the right spiritual disciplines like prayer, fasting, studying the Bible, meditating on God's Word etc.

Sadly Spiritual formation has brought in spiritual disciplines from paganism that are about transforming people by entering altered realms of consciousness. It is about looking within and stilling and emptying the mind. It is seeking an experience with God through various “spiritual exercises” that are somehow supposed to “sanctify”a person, who then will know victory. It is a subtle and deceptive substitute for genuine, biblical spiritual disciplines and sanctification. Many sincere Christians are entering into a pagan spiritual lifestyle without realising it. Their desire to draw near to God is leading them to mystic and even occult rituals hidden among godly practices.

These are some of the spiritual disciplines within the spiritual formation movement that we need to be wary of because they involve change of consciousness or altered consciousness and are not biblical: Positive Confession, Contemplative or centering prayer meditation, Breath Prayer, Jesus prayer, Lectio Divina, Labyrinth walking, Spiritual direction, Taize Chanting, Yoga. There are many more but I can't mention them all. These forms of spiritual disciplines and meditation are not biblical and are used in many pagan religions around the world.

Biblically we are to meditate on God’s law (Psalm 1:2), on the works of God (Psalm 77:12), and on things that are true, noble, just, pure, lovely, and of good report (Philippians 4:8).

I think you should say that meditating on God’s word is thinking about His word not what people know as meditation now.

 

[Thunderian]

So baptism is the beginning of the conversion process.

No, it’s not. Conviction is.

 

[phipps]

No, it’s not. Conviction is.

We need to be convicted that's for sure. Its part of conversion. Do you now see how important baptism is?

 

[phipps]

I think you should say that meditating on God’s word is thinking about His word not what people know as meditation now.

I did.

I posted, "Biblically we are to meditate on God’s law (Psalm 1:2), on the works of God (Psalm 77:12), and on things that are true, noble, just, pure, lovely, and of good report (Philippians 4:8)."

 

[Thunderian]

We need to be convicted that's for sure. Its part of conversion. Do you now see how important baptism is?

Baptism is the beginning of the conversion process?

 

[phipps]

As Christians does it really matter what day we worship on...or does it matter that we worship?

Nope on the infant baptism..

I went to a church where the pastors wife spoke in a tongue...no one could understand her..so I thought that was iffy. And it kind of made sense that she did it..her husband was the rock star of the church..I thought she liked the attention.

As Christians does it really matter what day we worship on...or does it matter that we worship?

The day matters very much. God is particular about all His commandments. When He chose a day out of seven, He chose it for a reason. God never said "Keep holy one day in seven" He said "Keep holy the seventh day". We don't get to choose what day to rest on and observe. Also when Jesus was on earth He observed the Sabbath as did the apostles and early Christians. All through out the ages there have always been God's people who keep the true Sabbath. The Sabbath will be observed in heaven and for all eternity too (Isaiah 66:22-23).

I went to a church where the pastors wife spoke in a tongue...no one could understand her..so I thought that was iffy. And it kind of made sense that she did it..her husband was the rock star of the church..I thought she liked the attention.

Exactly. It pointless speaking in a language no one understands. Spiritual gifts are given to us to edify and spread God's gospel.

 

[phipps]

Baptism is the beginning of the conversion process?

Usually baptism is done for new Christians who have just been convicted of Jesus as their personal Saviour. That is conversion. I showed scripture where some people got baptised the same day they were convicted. Paul got baptised three days after conversion. Its done at the beginning of our Christian journey unless someone is being re-baptised.

 

[Lisa]

I did.

I posted, "Biblically we are to meditate on God’s law (Psalm 1:2), on the works of God (Psalm 77:12), and on things that are true, noble, just, pure, lovely, and of good report (Philippians 4:8)."

Sure..but meditation means something else in this day and age doesn’t it?

The day matters very much. God is particular about all His commandments. When He chose a day out of seven, He chose it for a reason. God never said "Keep holy one day in seven" He said "Keep holy the seventh day". We don't get to choose what day to rest on and observe. Also when Jesus was on earth He observed the Sabbath as did the apostles and early Christians. All through out the ages there have always been God's people who keep the true Sabbath. The Sabbath will be observed in heaven and for all eternity too (Isaiah 66:22-23).

It did matter very much, but Jesus fulfilled the law remember..so we don’t have to. You can worship God when you want as long as you worship Him.

It pointless speaking in a language no one understands.

If you are speaking in tongues..it has to be a tongue someone understands, that’s for sure!

 

[Thunderian]

Usually baptism is done for new Christians who have just been convicted of Jesus as their personal Saviour. That is conversion. I showed scripture where some people got baptised the same day they were convicted. Paul got baptised three days after conversion. Its done at the beginning of our Christian journey unless someone is being re-baptised.

So the order is conviction, baptism, then conversion?

 

[phipps]

Sure..but meditation means something else in this day and age doesn’t it?

It did matter very much, but Jesus fulfilled the law remember..so we don’t have to. You can worship God when you want as long as you worship Him.


If you are speaking in tongues..it has to be a tongue someone understands, that’s for sure!

Sure..but meditation means something else in this day and age doesn’t it?

Meditation means different things to different people depending on their religion. That is why I posted what meditation is biblically.

It did matter very much, but Jesus fulfilled the law remember..so we don’t have to. You can worship God when you want as long as you worship Him.

Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17–19) To fulfil l means to “carry out.” So Jesus came to carry out the law and not abolish it. He came to show us how to obey and live according to the law. He obeyed the law and never once sinned and He was our example.

Paul wrote, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!" (Romans 6:14-15). When we have grace we fulfil the law as Jesus did. We don't break or disobey the law. The Bible is clear we have to obey the law. No one is going to make it who doesn't obey the law.

If you are speaking in tongues..it has to be a tongue someone understands, that’s for sure!

Definitely.

 

[Douglas Summers]

The first thing that most protestants do that is pagan (although many aren't aware), is worship on Sunday. Sunday worship was brought to Christianity through Catholicism which came directly from paganism. I'm not going to explain how that happened because I have a forum on the Sabbath that explains all that and more. The point is Catholicism claims responsibility for the change from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week in their Catechism. They claim Sunday worship is the mark of their authority.

God did not make the Sabbath as a day of worship, it was simply a day of rest for man and beast and it was given to Israel, God made it for man. The reason the Church worship on Sunday is because That is when the Apostles and born again believers meet, that is in Scripture. Nothing the Catholics do has anything to do with the body of Christ. They are Nicolaitans that Christ warned us about in the warnings to the Churches in Revelations. The Church is not Israel. There was in the past in the USA that was called the Blue Law, and Saturday was a day of rest and Sunday was a day of worship for those who believed in it.