Does God Place Conditions on His Gift of Salvation?

[Lisa]

I'm with you about pre-trib issues with the church. I'm post-trib pre-wrath myself however I'm still open to other rapture doctrines as God doesn't always reveal everything at once and I don't want to close the door on His truth.

One other issue I've found with your belief in the apostasy doctrine. You said, after we're saved, we still have the free will to stop believing and lose our salvation.And based on Heb6, it's impossible to renew that person back to repentance. I'm assuming you believe once someone fell away/lost their salvation, they cannot get it back. This is an issue here because that mean God also took that fallen one's FREE WILL away from making a choice to get save again. Unless you believe free will only exist until one have fallen away. Does God take away someone's salvation AND free will?

I’m glad we have something we agree on..however I really think 2 Thessalonians gives the time frame and I don’t think it could be pre trib.

‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.​

Wouldn’t God be depriving us of free will if we were once saved always saved?

Ya, I do believe once you fall away that you can’t be renewed because of Hebrews 6. If there weren’t any scriptures talking about falling away, I wouldn’t think there would be such a thing. If Hebrews 6 didn’t say you can’t be renewed again, I wouldn’t think it either and that’s why I believe you can fall away and why I believe you can’t come back from that.

I think instead of teaching that a person can’t lose their salvation..we should teach the truth that you could and then perhaps people would be more discerning about what they believe?

 

[elsbet]

EDIT
LEFT OUT QUOTE :/

 

[floss]

I’m glad we have something we agree on..however I really think 2 Thessalonians gives the time frame and I don’t think it could be pre trib.

‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.​

Wouldn’t God be depriving us of free will if we were once saved always saved?

Ya, I do believe once you fall away that you can’t be renewed because of Hebrews 6. If there weren’t any scriptures talking about falling away, I wouldn’t think there would be such a thing. If Hebrews 6 didn’t say you can’t be renewed again, I wouldn’t think it either and that’s why I believe you can fall away and why I believe you can’t come back from that.

I think instead of teaching that a person can’t lose their salvation..we should teach the truth that you could and then perhaps people would be more discerning about what they believe?

The point I was trying to make was once it is impossible for you to be renew again, wouldn't that mean God took away their Free Will to repent? If repentance once again is not an option, then there is no free will. You make it seem like teaching salvation is a free gift and it's your forever is somehow a bad thing. Eternal security is the greatest gift from God. You're watering it down if you're teaching it can be lost and put someone in a fear monger state trying to keep up to keep their salvation. You belong to God forever is the most satisfying truth. You don't know how many people out there are in fear and alway question their salvation which lead to false works doctrine. I rather people know the truth that God will never leave them instead of making them live fear and doubt.

 

[Lisa]

The point I was trying to make was once it is impossible for you to be renew again, wouldn't that mean God took away their Free Will to repent? If repentance once again is not an option, then there is no free will. You make it seem like teaching salvation is a free gift and it's your forever is somehow a bad thing. Eternal security is the greatest gift from God. You're watering it down if you're teaching it can be lost and put someone in a fear monger state trying to keep up to keep their salvation. You belong to God forever is the most satisfying truth. You don't know how many people out there are in fear and alway question their salvation which lead to false works doctrine. I rather people know the truth that God will never leave them instead of making them live fear and doubt.

If God took away their free will...it would be when you say people can’t lose their salvation....you really can’t have it both ways.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve...they had free will to not eat the fruit...after they ate the fruit they didn’t have the free will to go back to the way things were. Things were different. God warned them that they would surely die and God also warns us that if we fall away we can’t come back from that. I don’t see any difference really.

I’m not making it seem like a bad thing...osas isn’t a real thing so in that case it is a bad thing. Isn’t it a bad thing to believe in falsehoods, floss? God warns us enough in the Bible about staying in the faith.

‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭13:5‬ ‭
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?​

 

[TokiEl]

‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭13:5‬ ‭
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?​

Is Jesus Christ in you ?

I'm talking to you christians.

Have you experienced Him within your being ? In the form of a voice or a light or warmth ?

The Kingdom of God is truly within.



About salvation and sins...

If you can't be bothered to repent that is regret and turn from sins... God won't bother you.

You're on your own.

 

[elsbet]

The point I was trying to make was once it is impossible for you to be renew again, wouldn't that mean God took away their Free Will to repent? If repentance once again is not an option, then there is no free will. You make it seem like teaching salvation is a free gift and it's your forever is somehow a bad thing. Eternal security is the greatest gift from God. You're watering it down if you're teaching it can be lost and put someone in a fear monger state trying to keep up to keep their salvation. You belong to God forever is the most satisfying truth. You don't know how many people out there are in fear and alway question their salvation which lead to false works doctrine. I rather people know the truth that God will never leave them instead of making them live fear and doubt.

Fwiw, I think you both make valid points.

From the commentary I have read, it seems Hebrews 6 is talking about outright Apostasy.

Spoiler: HEBREWS 6

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit ..and having tasted the goodness of God's word and the power of the coming age-- and then have fallen away—to be restored again to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

In other words-- they have no desire for repentance, and will not be convinced otherwise. It is not that they have reached an invisible threshold, and Grace has run out for them-- that is impossible. They simply don't want it.

 

[floss]

Fwiw, I think you both make valid points.

From the commentary I have read, it seems Hebrews 6 is talking about outright Apostasy.

Spoiler: HEBREWS 6

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit ..and having tasted the goodness of God's word and the power of the coming age-- and then have fallen away—to be restored again to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

In other words-- they have no desire for repentance, and will not be convinced otherwise. It is not that they have reached an invisible threshold, and Grace has run out for them-- that is impossible. They simply don't want it.

Did the apostate ever had salvation and lost it when they fall away?

Some special people are rejected by God, they became a reprobate and can never get save, so in a sense they ran out of Grace.

 

[floss]

If God took away their free will...it would be when you say people can’t lose their salvation....you really can’t have it both ways.

I'm not having it both way, OSAS is not about free will. Something in life cannot be undone. Once you're born, can you crawl back into your mother's womb? That's essentially salvation, once you became children of God, you're forever his children. It doesn't matter what you do, you're considered his child forever even if YOU choose to abandon him. He will always KNEW YOU. The reason why Jesus said "depart of me, I never knew you" is because that person was never born again (become his child). It would make him a liar if he said he never knew you, even though you were once His children. If you can lose your salvation, Jesus would've said "depart from me, I "used to" know you".

Let’s look at Adam and Eve...they had free will to not eat the fruit...after they ate the fruit they didn’t have the free will to go back to the way things were. Things were different. God warned them that they would surely die and God also warns us that if we fall away we can’t come back from that. I don’t see any difference really.

Based on this example, A&E fell away, did they lose their salvation?

I’m not making it seem like a bad thing...osas isn’t a real thing so in that case it is a bad thing. Isn’t it a bad thing to believe in falsehoods, floss? God warns us enough in the Bible about staying in the faith.

God will never forsake you is not falsehood.

 

[Lisa]

Is Jesus Christ in you ?

The Holy Spirit is in my heart because I believed on Jesus and am being saved.

 

[Lisa]

I'm not having it both way, OSAS is not about free will. Something in life cannot be undone. Once you're born, can you crawl back into your mother's womb? That's essentially salvation, once you became children of God, you're forever his children. It doesn't matter what you do, you're considered his child forever even if YOU choose to abandon him. He will always KNEW YOU. The reason why Jesus said "depart of me, I never knew you" is because that person was never born again (become his child). It would make him a liar if he said he never knew you, even though you were once His children. If you can lose your salvation, Jesus would've said "depart from me, I "used to" know you".

If that is true..then why doesn’t scripture tell us that we can fall away from the faith and then tell us if we do we can’t be re-saved? I really think that you have a real disconnect there. Its there in black and white.

Based on this example, A&E fell away, did they lose their salvation?

They lost the garden of Eden..and because they are never seen to repent but do the blame game..at this point..I don’t think they are saved. I would be very surprised to see them in the millennium, honestly. Unless, they did repent and God didn’t put it in His word.

God will never forsake you is not falsehood.

Nope, He won’t forsake you..but think of all the people who forsook Him...even His chosen people weren’t immune...how many people didn’t make it to the promised land because they didn’t believe God? I’d say more people don’t make it because it is hard to remain in Him..which is why God gave us each other to encourage each other in the Lord.

 

[floss]

They lost the garden of Eden..and because they are never seen to repent but do the blame game..at this point..I don’t think they are saved. I would be very surprised to see them in the millennium, honestly. Unless, they did repent and God didn’t put it in His word.

It's shocking that any born again Christians believe A&E lost their salvation...I'm speechless. Well I won't keep trying to convince you from now on. Take care

 

[Lisa]

It's shocking that any born again Christians believe A&E lost their salvation...I'm speechless. Well I won't keep trying to convince you from now on. Take care

Did you read about them repenting? All I’ve read about them is that they did the blame game and Adam had the nerve to blame God for giving him the woman...doesn’t sound like repentance to me.

 

[phipps]

@Lisa

If that is true..then why doesn’t scripture tell us that we can fall away from the faith and then tell us if we do we can’t be re-saved? I really think that you have a real disconnect there. Its there in black and white.

You've got to be careful here Lisa. The Bible does not say if we fall away from the faith we can't be saved.

2 Peter 2:20 says, "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning."

Hebrews 10:26-28 says, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses."

So when a Christian falls away, this is their condition and if they never repent and return to God and die in that situation they will be lost forever, but the Bible never says they can't be re-saved. If they repent and return to God, they will be re-saved.

Do you remember Jesus’ parable about the unforgiving servant? Peter asked Jesus before Jesus told the parable, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” (Verse 21). Jesus responded, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven" (Verse 22). Basically Jesus was was saying there is no limit to how many times we can forgive our fellow human beings and He would not tell us to do that when He is not doing the same thing. As long as we are willing to repent, the Lord will forgive. God does not give up on us that easily. The Bible tells us God is “merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth” (Exodus 34:6). “A righteous man may fall seven times and rise again” (Proverbs 24:16). Luke adds, “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” (Luke 17:3-4).

The only unforgivable sin in the Bible is the unpardonable sin. “And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.” (Luke 12:10, Mark 3:28-29, Matthew 12:31). This is when we consistently refuse to confess and forsake our sin that we eventually become deaf to the Holy Spirit. That is when we've reached the point of no return. So anyone no matter what they've done including falling away from the faith can come back to Christ and repent and He will forgive them. Even speaking against Christ will be forgiven. The unpardonable sin is the only time God forsakes someone literally because they've become deaf and can no longer hear Him because they've chosen to.

 

[Lisa]

"Lisa, post: 270355, member: 28"



You've got to be careful here Lisa. The Bible does not say if we fall away from the faith we can't be saved.

2 Peter 2:20 says, "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning."

Hebrews 10:26-28 says, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses."

So when a Christian falls away, this is their condition and if they never repent and return to God and die in that situation they will be lost forever, but the Bible never says they can't be re-saved. If they repent and return to God, they will be re-saved.

Do you remember Jesus’ parable about the unforgiving servant? Peter asked Jesus before Jesus told the parable, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” (Verse 21). Jesus responded, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven" (Verse 22). Basically Jesus was was saying there is no limit to how many times we can forgive our fellow human beings and He would not tell us to do that when He is not doing the same thing. As long as we are willing to repent, the Lord will forgive. God does not give up on us that easily. The Bible tells us God is “merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth” (Exodus 34:6). “A righteous man may fall seven times and rise again” (Proverbs 24:16). Luke adds, “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” (Luke 17:3-4).

The only unforgivable sin in the Bible is the unpardonable sin. “And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.” (Luke 12:10, Mark 3:28-29, Matthew 12:31). This is when we consistently refuse to confess and forsake our sin that we eventually become deaf to the Holy Spirit. That is when we've reached the point of no return. So anyone no matter what they've done including falling away from the faith can come back to Christ and repent and He will forgive them. Even speaking against Christ will be forgiven. The unpardonable sin is the only time God forsakes someone literally because they've become deaf and can no longer hear Him because they've chosen to.

Hebrews 6:4-8 says differently...

Hebrews 6:4-8
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.​

 

[phipps]

Hebrews 6:4-8 says differently...

Hebrews 6:4-8
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.​

Whenever you read that people cannot be forgiven that is the unpardonable sin. They are now deaf to the Holy Spirit. Compare it with all the other verses that talk about falling away or apostasy, they do no say people cannot be re-saved. What would it say about God's character if He gave up on everyone that fell away? That would contradict what He says about forgiveness.

 

[Lisa]

Whenever you read that people cannot be forgiven that is the unpardonable sin. They are now deaf to the Holy Spirit. Compare it with all the other verses that talk about falling away or apostasy, they do no say people cannot be re-saved. What would it say about God's character if He gave up on everyone that fell away? That would contradict what He says about forgiveness.

The verses on falling away say people can fall away from the faith..the Hebrews verses just elaborate on falling away. The verse still says that people have fallen away and then say its impossible to renew them to repentance...its there in black and white.

I don’t think it says anything about God’s character..but it says something about the Christian who gave up...God still gives us free will even in faith.

 

[phipps]

The verses on falling away say people can fall away from the faith..the Hebrews verses just elaborate on falling away. The verse still says that people have fallen away and then say its impossible to renew them to repentance...its there in black and white.

I don’t think it says anything about God’s character..but it says something about the Christian who gave up...God still gives us free will even in faith.

So you're saying that all those who fall away can never comeback? Do we not have examples in the Bible of people who fell away and came back? Like David who even hid his sin and did not repent until God told him through the prophet Nathan about his sin. What about Solomon who you thought never repented even though the book of Ecclesiastes is a book of repentance. The parable of the prodigal son is also about a fallen Christian who returns. The Holy Spirit can re-convict those who've fallen away and they can come back to God. They can be re- born again.

Revelation 2:4-5, "Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent."

 

[Lisa]

So you're saying that all those who fall away can never comeback? Do we not have examples in the Bible of people who fell way and came back? Like David who even hid his sin and did not repent until God told him through the prophet Nathan about his sin. What about Solomon who you thought never repented even though the book of Ecclesiastes is a book of repentance. The parable of the prodigal son is also about a fallen Christian who returns. The Holy Spirit can re-convict those who've fallen away and they can come back to God. They can be re- born again.

Revelation 2:4-5, "Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent."

You can bring up anything and everything...but does any of that trump what Hebrews 6:4-8 says? That’s all I’m saying..that verse says that once fallen you can’t come back from it. And unless you find a verse that says that verse does not say that or is wrong..then its true...you can’t come back once you’ve fallen away from the faith.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Did you read about them repenting? All I’ve read about them is that they did the blame game and Adam had the nerve to blame God for giving him the woman...doesn’t sound like repentance to me.

Thats not the Muslim take on things Lisa!

 

[Lisa]

Thats not the Muslim take on things Lisa!

And..what does that have to do with anything?