Born Kind?

[Lisa]

Yes, but we're supposed to absolve children of their faults because they're children. And as a result they become adults who don't take responsibility and a liability to not only other people but to themselves...

I think good parents raise their kids and instill right and wrong in them but that’s a hard thing to do..often you’re thought of as mean.

 

[morita]

I think good parents raise their kids and instill right and wrong in them but that’s a hard thing to do..often you’re thought of as mean.

It's a result of different factors imo, as kids spend a lot of time out of the house. I've seen a lot of kids get bullied at school by other kids and the teachers would shrugg it off as just them playing and being children. If the bullies were at least punished and educated it would be a learning lesson for them.

 

[Lisa]

If the bullies were at least punished and educated it would be a learning lesson for them.

No doubt about that.. I think part of the problem about punishing the bullies is the parents. I don’t understand the bullying myself. My son was bullied and it really affected him..even his friends turned on him so they wouldn’t be bullied too.

 

[justjess]

I’m not cold towards people...I have common sense and I deal with reality..not how I want things to be.


I mentioned hair pulling also..but didn’t say the child pulled my hair..she only hit me in the head. She was getting a lot of my attention. She walked away and I was talking to my husband when she came up behind me smiled sweetly and then hit me in the back of the head. I have a picture of her right before she hit me..cause she looked so sweet my husband took the picture..and with the live picture..you can also see when she hit me in the head. No one taught her to do any of that.
I did tell her she was wrong and that wasn’t nice and she went to the corner and pouted about it.

Just like her parents own cats...they had to teach her how to behave around them because her instincts are to pull their hair and hit them. That’s the way life is...we are born with sin and we have to learn to be good and it starts at a young age.


He actually isn’t negative and depressing about humans..after all He sent His Son to die for us so we can live with Him forever..I wouldn’t call that depressing. But..He does tell it like it is, which is we are all sinners and we all fall short of His glory. We must be taught to do right, even as adults.
I think the worst way to experience the world is to lie about why things are and making up excuses so that we aren’t really to blame for things when our sin natures are to blame. It must be exhausting to keep coming up with reasons why all the time.

And your infinite wisdom tells you that the child who isn’t even two yet formulated a plan specifically to cause you harm? As I said - attention. You were talking to your husband, not playing with her as you had been. You turning around and scolding her was ACTUALLY TEACHING HER that hitting people in the head is effective at getting attention. Congratulations, your the ass backward adult I was talking about.

 

[Awoken2]

No Lisa, it’s not. It’s clear SOMETHING happened to you to make you so bitter and jaded about your fellow human beings and to make you so unempathetic towards them. Someone doesn’t get that cold for no reason. We certainly aren’t BORN that way.

They do not have ill intent at that age. They can not formulate “bad actions” - their actions are simply a means of communication because they lack other means. You are attributing value judgements to behaviors that otherwise are neutral based on your own morals and judgements.

That child didn’t hit you in the head (previously you said pulled your hair but whatever) because she wanted to hurt you. She hit you in the head because she has learned that is an effective way to get attention. My guess is that her other attempts to get attention have been ignored which is why she resorts to maladaptive behaviors to get her needs met. If she instead was given attention for positive behaviors and her negative behaviors (not in line with social mores - not negative because she wants to hurt you and is evil) were ignored instead she wouldn’t be pulling hair or hitting people. But we as parents and adults tend to be ass backwards in how we teach our children - yell and scold and explain things when their “bad” and barely pay attention when they’re “good”. It’s because we don’t understand that all they are looking for is ATTENTION. So that yelling and scolding and explaining from an adult pov should be punishing when instead from the child’s it’s rewarding.

With children so young especially, but also with people in general, the FORM of the behavior is not the appropriate focus. The FUNCTION of the behavior is. You are focusing on the form and attributing mentalistic interpretations to them which are invalid, especially and particularly, in the context of a small child that has not yet acquired the level of brain development to formulate behaviors based on negative intentions.

I’m sorry that the god in your bible is so depressing and negative towards humans that you have internalized this ridiculous conception of life. It must be a very shitty way to experience the world.

If you showed Lisa Maslows Hierarchy of Needs she would think she was looking at a colouring project.

There are quite obviously two very different levels of understanding here. Jess understands...Lisa....clueless.

 

[Lisa]

And your infinite wisdom tells you that the child who isn’t even two yet formulated a plan specifically to cause you harm? As I said - attention. You were talking to your husband, not playing with her as you had been. You turning around and scolding her was ACTUALLY TEACHING HER that hitting people in the head is effective at getting attention. Congratulations, your the ass backward adult I was talking about.

The child acted out of her sin nature. Again..that’s why parents teach children right from wrong..we have a sin nature in us from the moment we are born working within us..no one has to teach it to us, but we do have to learn to be good.

 

[Wigi]

It's a result of different factors imo, as kids spend a lot of time out of the house. I've seen a lot of kids get bullied at school by other kids and the teachers would shrugg it off as just them playing and being children. If the bullies were at least punished and educated it would be a learning lesson for them.

I believe this laxism comes from current ideology in schools that consider children as perpetual innocent because they are immature thus they shouldn't be bruised during their development or 'they could become resentful' they said.

I think schools do a poor job at teaching basic social skills because they believe kindness is innate despite the fact that all forms of kindness vanish once they hit 8-9 years old where they start to receive a scientific education that teach them how they're just mere animals with pulsions that lives in a meaningless world.
Bullies think they will be popular if they show themselves as the apex predators of the schoolyard.

Parents shouldn't be surprised that public schools create an environment that allows 9 years old children to think about committing suicide.

 

[morita]

I think schools do a poor job at teaching basic social skills

Schools can barely succeed at what they're supposed to do: teach, so I don't expect them to succeed in anything else.
I'm at college now and it requires to have more independance than in high school because you don't have your teachers on your back, consantly telling you what to do and I see a lot students who don't know how to manage their time efficiently which requires autonomy and knowing how to prioritize. Which I think is what separates the students who succeed and those who don't.

Parents shouldn't be surprised that public schools create an environment that allows 9 years old children to think about committing suicide.

The funny thing is, adults always warn kids about other adults and potential predators without realizing it's very likly they already being victimized by the seemingly sweet and innocent schoolmates they see everyday. If so many kids are commiting suicide then it should be taken seriously.

 

[justjess]

The child acted out of her sin nature. Again..that’s why parents teach children right from wrong..we have a sin nature in us from the moment we are born working within us..no one has to teach it to us, but we do have to learn to be good.

No Lisa. She didn’t. She acted out of a limited behavioral repertoire in a bid to gain attention in one of the only ways available to her due to a lack of verbal communication skills and a still developing understanding of social relations. She didn’t intend to harm you. Intent is necessary for sin. So is understanding, which she also lacked SINCE SHE ISNT EVEN TWO YET.

 

[Axl888]

I believe people are born neither kind (good) nor unkind (bad), it is their environment that mold their character.

I am sure the 100 19-month old infant subjects of this research are well fed by their parents since their birth, hence by example these infants will most likely do the same to people around them...and I suspect that if they would study deprived infants (which is a horrible thing to do by the way) they will see different results.

 

[Lisa]

No Lisa. She didn’t. She acted out of a limited behavioral repertoire in a bid to gain attention in one of the only ways available to her due to a lack of verbal communication skills and a still developing understanding of social relations. She didn’t intend to harm you. Intent is necessary for sin. So is understanding, which she also lacked SINCE SHE ISNT EVEN TWO YET.

Perhaps...but isn’t it still sin?

 

[justjess]

Perhaps...but isn’t it still sin?

No. Sorry but it’s not.

Did Jesus have a Temper Tantrum? | L.R.Knost-Little Hearts/Gentle Parenting Resources

[Excerpt reprinted from Jesus, the Gentle Parent: Gentle Christian Parenting by L.R.Knost. Two Thousand Kisses a Day: Gentle Parenting Through the Ages and Stages; Whispers Through Time: Communication Through the Ages and Stages of Childhood; and The Gentle Parent: Positive, Practical, Effective...

www.littleheartsbooks.com

 

[Lisa]

No. Sorry but it’s not.

Did Jesus have a Temper Tantrum? | L.R.Knost-Little Hearts/Gentle Parenting Resources

[Excerpt reprinted from Jesus, the Gentle Parent: Gentle Christian Parenting by L.R.Knost. Two Thousand Kisses a Day: Gentle Parenting Through the Ages and Stages; Whispers Through Time: Communication Through the Ages and Stages of Childhood; and The Gentle Parent: Positive, Practical, Effective...

www.littleheartsbooks.com

Yes it is..kids shouldn’t hit anyone let alone an adult.

Jesus didn’t throw a temper tantrum but He did have righteous anger for His Father and His Father’s house.

 

[justjess]

Yes it is..kids shouldn’t hit anyone let alone an adult.

Jesus didn’t throw a temper tantrum but He did have righteous anger for His Father and His Father’s house.

Please show me where in the Ten Commandments it says “thou shall not physically strike someone in an attempt to communicate when they lack verbalization skills when there is no attempt to harm or understanding of the concept of harm”

I’ll wait.

 

[Lisa]

Please show me where in the Ten Commandments it says “thou shall not physically strike someone in an attempt to communicate when they lack verbalization skills when there is no attempt to harm or understanding of the concept of harm”

I’ll wait.

You shall not murder.

Matthew‬ ‭5:21-22‬ ‭
You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER ’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘ You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.​

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Matthew‬ ‭15:19‬ ‭
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.​

It’s what is in our hearts...and that is what is wrong with us...all of us. We are born with a want to to sin...that’s why we act bad and have to be taught from a young age what right and wrong is. You can’t keep letting a 1.5 year old hit people can you? You teach them not to do it. If they were good you wouldn’t have to teach them that at all.
‭‭

 

[Haich]

Until the age of puberty, I'd argue children don't necessarily know any better. They are still learning and are going to make mistakes. These are not sins! Sins can only be committed by an individual who knows better and even then, there are minor sins we all commit (as we are imperfect) and major sins which can have serious consequences for both parties involved.

I think children are born pure and innocent, for the first 11 or so years of their lives, their parents/guardians are the ones who have that responsibility to ensure their child knows the difference between right and wrong, but also how to deal and treat others. That being said, there are extreme cases where kids experience trauma and end up committing horrific crimes/sins...(The James Buldger murder comes to mind)

My issue with religion sometimes is that its followers can be absolute about things which there does need to be a balanced approach to. Sin would be a topic which you need to consider personal circumstance...i mean a hungry child stealing bread isn't a sin is it? Someone stabbing their abuser during an assault isn't murder is it?

Kids need guidance and even well into puberty they will continue to make mistakes but at least around puberty they are able to differentiate between right and wrong...

We all sin, it's natural. I think the point of sin is to learn from your mistakes and grow as a person who knows that certain paths lead to spiritual and mental destruction...it's a lifelong process and tis the nature of this life.

 

[Haich]

This is why the Almighty is the final judge of each and every one of us. This is why muslims do not believe in guaranteed salvation...it doesn't make sense as people are too varied and their walks to God are so diverse. There cannot be a foolproof way of entering heaven due to the various natures and histories of each human to ever walk earth...

Sure, there is a basic prerequisite to entering heaven (for us it's the 5 pillars) but to say you are guaranteed it when you do just as much as sin and nonsense as your neighbour is quite arrogant...

 

[floss]

This is why muslims do not believe in guaranteed salvation...

Well now you've got something in common with Lisa and Phipps.

 

[Haich]

Well now you've got something in common with Lisa and Phipps.

I beg to differ.

 

[Lisa]

I think children are born pure and innocent, for the first 11 or so years of their lives, their parents/guardians are the ones who have that responsibility to ensure their child knows the difference between right and wrong, but also how to deal and treat others.

If they are born pure...then why do parents have to teach kids anything? That doesn’t make sense to me...and how does being pure change...if you are born pure..shouldn’t you stay pure?

..i mean a hungry child stealing bread isn't a sin is it?

Is stealing still a sin even if that’s the circumstance? Its still stealing.

We all sin, it's natural.

Which brings me to the point that we are born sinners...since its natural for us.

There cannot be a foolproof way of entering heaven

The foolproof way is through grace, by faith in Jesus.