Trump Presenting Peace Plan To Israeli Leaders

[Thunderian]

Y

you first?

I’ve been asking for years how Israel stole the land they’re on, with no explanation from you or anyone else, so I’m going to proceed as if you’ve admitted Israel is the full, legal, claimant to the land they now possess. They bought it, they reclaimed it, they WON it.

Having settled that, let’s look at the position of the so-called Palestinian people.

They could have had a state in 1948, and they could have a state at a number of points after that. In truth, they could have had a state at any point, had they stopped attacking Israel for long enough to put one together.

But the Palestinians have always chosen violence over a state. They’ve caused endless death and misery for Palestinians and Israelis, and raised up each new generation to blame Israel for their pitiful state — or lack of a state, I should say. The bottom line has always been that it’s the fault of the Zionists. “Zionists are why our land is broken, our people are hopeless, and why we send our women and children as shahid against Jewish women and children.” The rest of the Arab world played along, and so did a lot of westerners, like you.

So, if Israel didn’t steal their land, and if the Palestinians have spent the last 70 years violently rejecting both the Israeli state and a state of their own, I think the state they are offered now, and the $50 billion, are the best they’re going to do. They certainly shouldn’t be rewarded for what they’ve been doing up to now.

The game is over. The fix is in. Look at the Arab countries that are aligning with Israel and encouraging the Palestinians to take this deal. The message from former Palestinian-supporting nations like Saudi Arabia and UAE is that this is it. This deal is the golden handshake for the Palestinians. The aid is going to dry up, and soon, the Palestinians will be effectively forgotten.

If the Palestinians had a legit claim to Israel’s land, or if they’d been patiently working through legal means to regain “their” land, this would be a terrible deal. But they have no claim, and they’ve been real assholes, to boot, so forgive me if my heart doesn’t bleed for them now. This deal is worse than any other deal they have ever been offered, but there will be no further deals for them after this.

Does anyone honestly think Israel is going anywhere? Of course not. So why would anyone pretend that a future Palestinian state is going to replace Israel? The Palestinians need to take this deal.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Really @Red Sky at Morning ?

Liking a comment calling me a bully? Noted.

There is a subtle distinction between you personally bullying anyone and standing up for a bullying approach. I don’t believe the former of you, but I can’t help sadly note the latter.

I am very aware of the “Palestinian Narrative” on Israel. Having failed to destroy Israel militarily in 1948/49 and 1967, the wider Arab world switched “bullying” attacks on the genetic legitimacy of the Jews, the historicity of the ancient land of Israel and of their moral / Biblical connection to it.

My great grandfather and my great-great uncle both helped liberate Belsen. They rarely talked about what they saw but our family knew they were changed men. I can’t help but have strong feelings on the matter, but if I have hurt you in the way I expressed them, I apologise.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

A link to the full text of the political component of the “deal”.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Ex-IDF intel. chief: Trump peace plan not even basis for talks
https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Ex-IDF-intel-chief-Trump-plan-not-even-basis-for-talks-615777

Whilst ambitious, I think the ultimate ”Deal of the Century” is still a little way down the line.

I have nothing but a gut feeling on this but I suspect a regional conflict, with Israel the target of the Psalm 83 nations will lead to an international cry for peace, into which the “strengthened” seven year deal of Daniel 9:27 will step.

 

[elsbet]

How is that scraps? Their territory has been more than doubled. And this new Palestinian State in East Jerusalem could be the start of something more.

Hopefully (remembering we're dealing with government), this will give the Palestinians relief from their own crooked and abusive government... against whom they aren't permitted to protest. :/

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Iran vows to crush 'satanic' Trump plan and 'Jewishization' of Jerusalem
https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Iran-vows-to-crush-satanic-Trump-plan-and-Jewishization-of-Jerusalem-615805

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

One aspect of the plan touches an issue that I have always wondered on:-

"While the Temple Mount will remain under Muslim custodianship, people of all faiths will be permitted to pray there."​

​

My question to nobody in particular... Why does the present arrangement stop Jews and Christians from simply praying whilst standing on the Temple Mount? Nobody is rushing into the mosque and trying to stop the Muslims so, for those who care about equality and civil liberties, why would prayer be prohibited anywhere on the Temple Mount apart from for Muslims? I have never understood the reasoning...

 

[justjess]

One aspect of the plan touches an issue that I have always wondered on:-

"While the Temple Mount will remain under Muslim custodianship, people of all faiths will be permitted to pray there."​

​

My question to nobody in particular... Why does the present arrangement stop Jews and Christians from simply praying whilst standing on the Temple Mount? Nobody is rushing into the mosque and trying to stop the Muslims so, for those who care about equality and civil liberties, why would prayer be prohibited apart from Muslims? I have never understood the reasoning...

Do you think that’s solely in Israel/Palestine? When looking at travel guides for places such as Istanbul and Morocco there are very clear guidelines for non Muslims as far as their mosques are concerned. Only allowed in under certain conditions and then with lots of rules. Idk why, I’m not Muslim. But I also was never bothered by it.

As far as a bullying approach you all seem to be confused and think I want Israel to just disappear or hand over all the land to Palestine or something which I’ve never said or implied. My grandfather also fought in ww2 and NEVER spoke about any of it. In this day and age they’d probably call it ptsd. I have numerous friends that had relatives in the concentration camps. I met many survivors of the camps because we used to have them come into school and talk to us. I grew up in New Jersey.. look at the demographics man, my hometown was like 50% Jewish, 50% Italian/Irish. So I get it, but just because something horrible happened to them doesn’t mean they get free reign to do something horrible to some other group of people.

So let’s say they have an ancestral right to the land. I’m not even arguing that, but ignoring the thousands of years that passed between when they left and when they returned and acting like the people who lived there during that time have no rights themselves is a problem. Bluntly put its fucked up. Ignoring that land ownership the way we know it is a decidedly western phenomen for the majority of history solely in service of justifying something that common sense says is wrong is a dishonest tactic and I have no respect for that.

The Palestinians didn’t just pick up and decide they wanted the Jews land, they were already there when the Jews declared it their land. If you want them to respect Jews rights to some of it, then you need to respect their rights as well. And that’s not happening. It hasn’t happened in the past and it certainly isn’t present in this plan.

@Thunderian its only game over if they accept the plan. They aren’t going to accept the plan. Everyone involved knows this, they purposely put forth a plan that would never be accepted and one has to wonder why yet again the USA is willing to throw a lit match into the combustible mess which is the Middle East. Who does that help? Not the average Israeli, certainly not the average Palestinian, and not American troops or citizens.

In every one of trumps “deals of the century” literally nothing was made better and two made things worse. Nothing came of it with North Korea (either way). The Iran situation is worse and the Israel situation is going to get worse. Congratulations master negotiator

 

[Thunderian]

The Palestinians didn’t just pick up and decide they wanted the Jews land, they were already there when the Jews declared it their land.

Again with the old “Jews stole the land” lie.

The truth: Before the creation of Israel, Jews and Arabs were both living in the British Mandate of Palestine. When the mandate was expiring, Arabs had the opportunity of forming a nation with the Jews, and rejected it. That’s when the land was partitioned. The entire area that we call Palestine was never possessed by Arabs.

Your view, that the Jews showed up one day and took the land from it’s rightful owners, when in reality they legally bought land and reclaimed land that was barren, makes as much sense as saying that if a Jew buys the house next to yours, it’s not really his, but actually yours, because you lived in the neighborhood before he did.

 

[Kung Fu]

Oh please that is not how it happened.

That's exactly how it happened. But of course, you being either an Evangelical Christian or a Jewish Zionist would lie and say otherwise.

 

[Kung Fu]

Again with the old “Jews stole the land” lie.

The truth: Before the creation of Israel, Jews and Arabs were both living in the British Mandate of Palestine. When the mandate was expiring, Arabs had the opportunity of forming a nation with the Jews, and rejected it. That’s when the land was partitioned. The entire area that we call Palestine was never possessed by Arabs.

Your view, that the Jews showed up one day and took the land from it’s rightful owners, when in reality they legally bought land and reclaimed land that was barren, makes as much sense as saying that if a Jew buys the house next to yours, it’s not really his, but actually yours, because you lived in the neighborhood before he did.

You ever get tired of spouting the same Zionist lies? Why should the Palestinians have to form a state when they were already living there? The bullshit that you spew is similar to that of colonialists.

 

[TokiEl]

If I came in and stole your house and told you I’d give you a less desirable house in exchange but that in order to get THAT house you had to live by all these rules and requirements I decided on unilaterally or with the help of my big bully buddy what would you say?

As it is the lord of the manor has returned to find squatters fighting for the right to squat in the mansion.

 

[Kung Fu]

This is how the story goes folks. Germany supposedly rounds up and tries to kill all the Jews. The Rothschild's get what they wanted in the Balfour Declaration. The allies (Britain and US) form Israel when it was the Germans who supposedly tried to kill them (why not give a piece of Germany to them?). A bunch of Jews around the world move there and take over Palestine because they have all the weapons and are financed by the West. Palestinians get angry and want to keep their land but the US comes intercedes, the one who finances and supports the colonizers, and tries to broker peace as a neutral "observer" lol.

 

[TokiEl]

1 Thessalonians 5 1Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

 

[justjess]

How many jewish Israeli’s living in Israel right now are actually descendants of the Jewish population that lived there in 1850 thunderian?

Prior to the British acquiring Palestine private land ownership didn’t exist how we know it. So yes, Zionist organizations legally bought up land after that but that doesn’t mean there weren’t Palestinian residents who had an equal claim to it. Just because something is “legal” doesn’t make it right.

 

[Kung Fu]

How many jewish Israeli’s living in Israel right now are actually descendants of the Jewish population that lived there in 1850 thunderian?

Prior to the British acquiring Palestine private land ownership didn’t exist how we know it. So yes, Zionist organizations legally bought up land after that but that doesn’t mean there weren’t Palestinian residents who had an equal claim to it. Just because something is “legal” doesn’t make it right.

A small percentage of it was bought land. The rest was taken forcefully.

 

[TokiEl]

How many jewish Israeli’s living in Israel right now are actually descendants of the Jewish population that lived there in 1850 thunderian?

Prior to the British acquiring Palestine private land ownership didn’t exist how we know it. So yes, Zionist organizations legally bought up land after that but that doesn’t mean there weren’t Palestinian residents who had an equal claim to it. Just because something is “legal” doesn’t make it right.

The tiny strip of land known as Israel is actually God's own land where israelis are just stewards.

Leviticus 25 23The land must not be sold permanently, because it is Mine, and you are but foreigners and sojourners with Me.

 

[justjess]

As it is the lord of the manor has returned to find squatters fighting for the right to squat in the mansion.

2,000 years later? I’m sorry but at some point you lose the right to that claim. Not everyone believes in your book.

 

[justjess]

The tiny strip of land known as Israel is actually God's own land where israelis are just stewards.

Leviticus 25 23The land must not be sold permanently, because it is Mine, and you are but foreigners and sojourners with Me.

God kicked them out because they were shitty stewards. Sorry.

 

[justjess]

In Pennsylvania, it takes 21 years of continuous occupation for a squatter to make an adverse possession claim (Penn. ... When a squatter claims adverse possession, they can gain legal ownership of the property. At this point, the squatter is not a criminal trespasser and has lawful permission to remain on the property.

^ the Palestinians were there for way longer than 21 years. At which point even “squatters” have rights.