Catholicism 101

[Lisa]

That’s what I meant with you not understanding what you read.

What did I not understand?

 

[Artful Revealer]

That some people live in a world where words and concepts have actual meaning, and that a word must convey the concept’s true meaning for God’s order to manifest. The Church has a word / concept for the worship of God alone that is distinct from a word / concept of veneration of an elevated saint. You seem unable to grasp that distinction, therefore reality becomes a disorderly blur in your mind, which only seems to find clarity in the abstractionist and reductionist simplicity of sola scriptura. In other words, you let a book do the thinking for you.

 

[Lisa]

That some people live in a world where words and concepts have actual meaning, and that a word must convey the concept’s true meaning for God’s order to manifest. The Church has a word / concept for the worship of God alone that is distinct from a word / concept of veneration of an elevated saint. You seem unable to grasp that distinction, therefore reality becomes a disorderly blur in your mind, which only seems to find clarity in the abstractionist and reductionist simplicity of sola scriptura. In other words, you let a book do the thinking for you.

All Christians who believe in Jesus are called saints..no one is elevated beyond that. And no one is venerated to such a station to take the focus off God...which the veneration of Mary clearly does which is why it’s wrong...on so many levels. I’m sorry you can’t see it.

God’s word is essential for belief in God. Can’t believe without hearing God’s word. Everyone let’s someone or something do the thinking for them...the only thinking that counts and one should look to is God’s. And they only way to know God’s thinking is through His word, the Bible.

 

[Infinityloop]

on so many levels.

Such as?

 

[Lisa]

Such as?

Such as praying to a dead person who can’t hear you. She is dead...she can’t answer your prayer or redirect it to God. She isn’t Jesus who is the mediator between God and man..it is wrong to give Mary what was only given to Jesus.

‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:5‬ ‭
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.​

We also only pray to the Father..notice that Jesus doesn’t mention praying to His mom..just His Father. Praying to Mary is in violation of what Jesus said to do.

Matthew‬ ‭6:9‬ ‭
Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.​

‭‭
The pope says that Mary is co-redemptrix meaning that Jesus needed help in saving us which He didn’t need any help.

John‬ ‭14:6‬ ‭
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”​

Praying hail Mary’s doesn’t do anything..

Matthew‬ ‭6:7‬ ‭
And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.​

‭‭Mary also was not venerated or prayed to by any disciple or apostle in the Bible so why would people do so now? She falls under the heading for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I don’t see a disclaimer all but Mary.

Veneration looks a lot like worship and the giving of godly attributes to a human when it is not warranted and was not meant.

Exodus‬ ‭20:3-4‬ ‭
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.​

‭‭

‭‭

 

[Infinityloop]

Such as praying to a dead person who can’t hear you.

Jesus is dead.

 

[floss]

Jesus is dead.

Hey Scimi, I think you meant Muhomad

 

[Lisa]

Jesus is dead.

Actually, He died and was dead for three days then rose again where it’s recorded that many, many people saw Him alone and saw Him ascend to heaven..where the Bible says He sits at the right hand of God which is why He can be the mediator between us and God, where Mary is dead...she didn’t ascend to heaven as well but died and stayed dead.

 

[Infinityloop]

Actually, He died

That's the point. He died, yet you worship him. You're a polytheist.

she didn’t ascend to heaven as well but died and stayed dead.

You don't know this, you assume it out of your hatred towards Mary.

 

[Wigi]

Sure but neither do Protestants. All Christians worship Jesus, which is just plain insulting, plain idolatry, polytheism.

Not according to the Bible.

You don't know this, you assume it out of your hatred towards Mary

I think it's just an aversion toward human traditions. In modern day Catholicism, Mary is basically above all prophets.

 

[Infinityloop]

Not according to the Bible.

Yes according to the Bible. The #1 theme of the Old Testament is worship God alone, nothing else. Jesus is a foreign body, Jesus is also a human being. You should know by now how seriously the Old Testament takes worshiping things other than YHWH.

I think it's just an aversion toward human traditions. In modern day Catholicism, Mary is basically above all prophets.

The Bible is a human tradition.

You lie about Catholicism but even if your lie was true, it's no different from worshiping Jesus. (however worshiping Mary would make more logical sense than Jesus, funny enough, but both are polytheism, idolatry).

 

[Wigi]

Yes according to the Bible. The #1 theme of the Old Testament is worship God alone, nothing else. Jesus is a foreign body, Jesus is also a human being. You should know by now how seriously the Old Testament takes worshiping things other than YHWH.

Jesus is the word of God and the word of God is God. We can take the OT seriously and see how many times it backs it up.

The Bible is a human tradition

Christians disagree.

You lie about Catholicism but even if your lie was true, it's no different from worshiping Jesus

I'm not lying and yes it is different when you consider the fact that none of the apostles believed mary was a supreme being while they agreed with Mary to worship Jesus who is the Son of God.

 

[Infinityloop]

Jesus is the word of God and the word of God is God.

You have no evidence of this. And of course, you also call the Bible God by also calling it "the word".

We can take the OT seriously and see how many times it backs it up.

And your list of evidence is zero.

Christians disagree.

How can you disagree? it was a collection of supposedly historical books recorded by men long after they happened. It's human tradition whatever way you slice it. It doesn't matter how 'authoritative' you take the Bible, it will only ever be a human tradition.

I'm not lying and yes it is different when you consider the fact that none of the apostles believed mary was a supreme being while they agreed with Mary to worship Jesus who is the Son of God.

Worshiping either is delusional. And also, you're just making assumptions here. Again what is presented by you here is one in which doesn't presume a reality outside of the books of the Bible. You don't know what the apostles did and believed, aside from what you take as authoritative from the only sources that even mention them in the first place (aka, circular reasoning).

 

[Wigi]

You have no evidence of this

It is written in the book of John and numerous other passages throughout the Bible when we pay attention to it.

And your list of evidence is zero

What qualify as evidence ? A scientific test?
Because scriptures exist.

How can you disagree? it was a collection of supposedly historical books recorded by men long after they happened.

Because you believe time transform everything into an human tradition isn't it?
I disagree because the scriptures were inspired by God. If you want, you can explain in what way the Gospel or the ten commandments are human traditions.

It's human tradition whatever way you slice

For example, I think the Coran is human tradition because it's best suited for an Arabian way of life. If you live in northern countries,you can't observe the ramadan during periods where there is no nights.

Again what is presented by you here is one in which doesn't presume a reality outside of the books of the Bible. You don't know what the apostles did and believed, aside from what you take as authoritative from the only sources that even mention them in the first place

In fact yes I know what they believed since I have the scriptures.
The question of whether you should trust them doesn't change the fact that Mary isn't worshipped in Christian scriptures.

 

[Infinityloop]

It is written in the book of John and numerous other passages throughout the Bible when we pay attention to it.

This has already been written about extensively, beaten to the bush https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/jesus-an-essene.6438/post-238545

What is sin according to the Bible?

The Bible defines sin as the transgression of the law. “Sin is the transgression of the law.” 1 John 3:4. The Law of God is a complete and perfect definition of what constitutes sin. The transgression of which law is sin? “...For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said...

vigilantcitizenforums.com

The book of John was the last "canonical" biography of Jesus written and everything about it from start to finish, every single word of it is Gnostic.

What qualify as evidence ? A scientific test?
Because scriptures exist.

Evidence outside of the very small, closed-system of texts which you get these polytheist ideas from.

Because you believe time transform everything into an human tradition isn't it?

No, from the contents of the Bible itself, cover to cover.

I disagree because the scriptures were inspired by God.

You say "scriptures" but you don't really mean it. You mean biographies and letters.

For example, I think the Coran is human tradition because it's best suited for an Arabian way of life.

This is where the Qur'an completely blows the Bible out of the water. The Qur'an is not the word of Muhammad and it doesn't claim to comply with anything prior, except for bringing back the authentic religion of Abraham. The Qur'an is God speaking directly, no alteration, purely God speaking. Divine word in the literal sense, sonorous recitation of the revelation given by the intermediary of the Angel Gabriel. Nothing compares.
The Bible is just a book of supposed history books. You're getting us off track here.

In fact yes I know what they believed since I have the scriptures.

Same problem "Bible cause Bible cause Bible cause Bible....."

The question of whether you should trust them doesn't change the fact that Mary isn't worshipped in Christian scriptures.

Neither is Jesus, but he is by Catholics and Protestants. Mary was pure and blessed to be the only human being to give birth in such a way, there is a lot of subtext here that passes over the very dumb, shallow, simpleminded Protestant view.

Of course, according to the Bible, it would make God out to be far worse than he already looks in the Old Testament if Mary was just some random woman God decided to impregnate, that is just filthy. And also considering Mary was very hopeful toward Joseph according to the same texts.
Biblically speaking, there is very little that is not worth condemnation. In the view which takes the New Testament to be valid, once you reduce Mary to a sorry nobody, then you throw out Jesus with her.

 

[Wigi]

The book of John was the last "canonical" biography of Jesus written and everything about it from start to finish, every single word of it is Gnostic.

And what this is supposed to mean?
What do you mean by 'Gnostic'?

Evidence outside of the very small, closed-system of texts which you get these polytheist ideas from.

I don't need evidence outside of the texts since you first talked about the OT. Now I need evidence outside of the texts? That's called moving the goal post.

You say "scriptures" but you don't really mean it. You mean biographies and letters.

I meant scriptures inspired by God which is the bible.

The Qur'an is God speaking directly, no alteration, purely God speaking. Divine word in the literal sense, sonorous recitation of the revelation given by the intermediary of the Angel Gabriel. Nothing compares.

Except if I think otherwise and don't believe in that. But even that is not really different because an human hand writes the book for and it's presumably an angel speaking in the name of someone else.

The thing is I've explained in what sense I think it's human tradition but you didn't explained in what way the gospel and the ten commandments are human traditions.

Neither is Jesus, but he is by Catholics and Protestants

Jesus is worshipped in the Bible.

Of course, according to the Bible, it would make God out to be far worse than he already looks in the Old Testament

I don't know why you play the closet atheist card right now. If you mock the God of the Old Testament, you also mock the God in the Qu'ran because the Qu'ran claim Allah gave the law to Moses.

Biblically speaking, there is very little that is not worth condemnation. In the view which takes the New Testament to be valid, once you reduce Mary to a sorry nobody, then you throw out Jesus with her.

Not at all. Mary isn't even worshipped and in fact she is praising Jesus once He rose up from the dead.
It's not even remotely identical.

 

[Infinityloop]

And what this is supposed to mean?
What do you mean by 'Gnostic'?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannine

I don't need evidence outside of the texts since you first talked about the OT. Now I need evidence outside of the texts? That's called moving the goal post.

Evidence in reality for the trinity and evidence in reality to back up the idea that a man can be "God".

I meant scriptures inspired by God which is the bible.

But you don't mean it, you speak these words without true conviction. Paintings are often 'inspired by God', so are novels and poetry, so is architecture. This doesn't make them 'scripture'.
I fail to see your line of logic, cause there isn't one. My posts are 'inspired by God', by the same logic.

Except if I think otherwise and don't believe in that.

Well yes, that's obvious because you, like other Christians, promote the idea that biographies are scripture. Do I really need to emphasize how absurd that is?

But even that is not really different because an human hand writes the book for and it's presumably an angel speaking in the name of someone else.

God is God.
Angels do what Angels do (in the case of Gabriel, reveal divine word).
Prophets propagate and lead as Prophets propagate and lead.

The thing is I've explained in what sense I think it's human tradition but you didn't explained in what way the gospel and the ten commandments are human traditions.

Matthew 1:
This is the genealogy[a] of Jesus the Messiah[b] the son of David, the son of Abraham:

2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4 Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6 and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,
7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12 After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,
Abihud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14 Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Elihud,
15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.
17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.




Mark 1:


The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[a] the Son of God,[b] 2 as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”[c]—
3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’”[d]
4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6 John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7 And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8 I baptize you with[e] water, but he will baptize you with[f] the Holy Spirit.”


Luke 1:

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

John 1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.



These books are not Revelations, they are biographies (none of them are eyewitnesses either).

Jesus is worshipped in the Bible.

No he isn't.

I don't know why you play the closet atheist card right now. If you mock the God of the Old Testament, you also mock the God in the Qu'ran because the Qu'ran claim Allah gave the law to Moses.

You're not subtle at all. I don't mock anything either, I'm pointing out the flaws in your worldview (and namely the implications of your view of Mary). The Old Testament is not the word of God, neither is the New Testament.

Not at all. Mary isn't even worshipped and in fact she is praising Jesus once He rose up from the dead.
It's not even remotely identical.

Jesus prayed and worshiped God too. You do not have a convincing argument.

 

[Infinityloop]

@Wigi Is Christianity your first religion?

 

[Lisa]

That's the point. He died, yet you worship him. You're a polytheist.



You don't know this, you assume it out of your hatred towards Mary.

You didn’t quote my whole reply..He died, but He rose again 3 days later where people saw Him alive again and saw Him ascend into heaven where He sits at the right hand of the Father. You have to have it all..not just Jesus died.

With Mary, its just Mary died..she was only human and sinned and needed a savior to save her as well. She isn’t part of the Godhood so she shouldn’t be revered like she is..that has become a myth and doesn’t reflect the actual woman. I don’t hate Mary...I just see her as she really is...not as tradition and its just tradition..you can’t read anything in the Bible about Mary that tradition teaches.

 

[Infinityloop]

You didn’t quote my whole reply..

How observant of you

He died, but He rose again

First half is correct, second half is your belief.

With Mary, its just Mary died..

Just like Jesus.

I don’t hate Mary...

No, you do hate Mary and continue to ridicule her as a nobody that God impregnated for no reason. I don't know how much more disrespectful you could possibly get towards Mary.

you can’t read anything in the Bible about Mary that tradition teaches.

You can't find the Trinity either.