The purpose of life in Christianity

Robin

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It literally states that the command was received from the father clearly showing the trinity isn't a triune unity between 3 equal beings.

How can you just gloss over that? From an outward perspective, can you not see how that verse is contradictory of your faith?
I don't see it as three persons in one person, or three natures in one nature; I see it as three persons in one nature. It is for us to see what person is and what nature is, and then to consider what meaning there can be in a nature totally possessed by three distinct persons. Nature answers the question what we are; person answers the question who we are.
 
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The way I see it, one takes his life for personal matters while the other offers his life and get killed to save others.

That's the difference between Jesus and Judas.
Apparently there are some Judases here who cannot see the difference. ;)
If Christian means “Christ-like”, I wonder why so many seem to be afraid of this very same concept as presented in the rhetorical question I have posed.
 

Haich

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A sacrifice isn't a suicide and a suicide isn't a sacrifice.

The way I see it, one takes his life for personal matters while the other offers his life and get killed to save others.

That's the difference between Jesus and Judas.
Ok again redefining the English language to suit your narrative.

In any other context, sometime taking their own life or putting themselves in the firing line for whatever purpose, be it admirable or not, would be suicide.

But we have to all just surrender to your explanation which you use to make sense of something which cannot be explained otherwise.

Doesn't make sense, never will. Many people don't get it and never will.
 

manama

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I have not forgotten - I am considering not just what I want to say, but how I can say it to you in such a way as connects meaningfully with your understanding. It might take a week and I don’t want to write you a book on it, but I have it in mind ;-)
Good because I'm not forgetting about it anytime soon.

We don't "resurrect" ourselves by our own power. The whole point is that Jesus has victory over the curse of death.

Hebrews 2:14
"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

Revelation 1:18
"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."
If it was self-resurrection, then was it really a sacrifice? Like i said, is an immortal (for example a vampire) breaking his neck, knowing that it would be fixed in 2 second anyway, really a sacrifice?
 

Haich

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I don't see it as three persons in one person, or three natures in one nature; I see it as three persons in one nature. It is for us to see what person is and what nature is, and then to consider what meaning there can be in a nature totally possessed by three distinct persons. Nature answers the question what we are; person answers the question who we are.
Why is there a hierarchy in the trinity? They cant have the same nature if they aren't capable of the same things.

You aren't making sense at all, how can you not see that?
 

manama

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A sacrifice isn't a suicide and a suicide isn't a sacrifice.

The way I see it, one takes his life for personal matters while the other offers his life and get killed to save others.

That's the difference between Jesus and Judas.
Such an awful analogy, if I kill myself for someone else, you mean it won't count as suicide and thus not a sin?
And since when does suicide just HAVE to be selfish?

Suicide is the act of killing ones own self intentionally. It doesn't say anything about what the "intention" was, just that there was one.
 

Todd

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If I were to say that I would like to think so (for their sake) but don’t find any compelling reasons to believe so, would that make sense?
Only because we are coming from different presuppositions. It doesn't make sense at all if one holds to the doctrine of Apokatastasis.
 

Todd

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I don't see it as three persons in one person, or three natures in one nature; I see it as three persons in one nature. It is for us to see what person is and what nature is, and then to consider what meaning there can be in a nature totally possessed by three distinct persons. Nature answers the question what we are; person answers the question who we are.
By this definition Trinitarian cannot be considered monotheism. This definition says there are three different God's who all have the same nature.
 

Haich

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The Bible states that the “wages of sin is death”. Given that we all sin, and have inherited sin nature’s through Adam, we are in trouble spiritually.
Sorry to single this out, I just had to respond.

In islam, we believe our souls/spirit is within the vessel that we call the body and it is out spirit which controls what the body does. So for me, I really struggle with this concept in Christianity as in my mind, it's the spirit which puppets the body. If I want to buy a new bag, it's my 'spiritual heart' which desires it and tells my mind to use my hand to swipe my card. The physical heart which pumps blood, doesn't do this.

When I sin, say I decide to nick a chocolate bar, it isn't my hand that is to blame, it is me aka my spirit which chose to give in to that temptation or thrill of stealing. So I dont understand why the wages of sin is death when the body is just a casing and an extension of our spirits, which is the thing that encapsulates our actions before we've communicated to the body what actions we have chosen to perform...
 

Wigi

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if I kill myself for someone else, you mean it won't count as suicide and thus not a sin?A
A sacrifice isn't a suicide that's why the word sacrifice exist.
If you kill yourself, you commit suicide.
When you offer your life to be killed by someone so you could save others, it's a sacrifice.

since when does suicide just HAVE to be selfish?
A suicide is inherently selfish since you decide to take your life.
 

Haich

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In order to approach God, we must be perfectly holy, yet we are not so, even in our best and most religious moments.
Not at all, we can never be perfect and never have been. Even prophets weren't perfect, God owns perfection. He is our creator and there shouldn't be a barrier in communicating with him. Satan deceives us and tells us we cant directly talk or seek God...

You need sincerity to reach God, that is it.
 

manama

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A suicide is inherently selfish since you decide to take your life.
And the concept of salvation comes from god taking his life no? Its suicide then.

A sacrifice isn't a suicide that's why the word sacrifice exist.
If you kill yourself, you commit suicide.
When you offer your life to be killed by someone so you could save others, it's a sacrifice.
If i kill you for someone else, it would be a sacrifice but it would also STILL be a murder. Suicide can be a sacrifice and yet still be suicide. You can kill yourself and its suicide.

If i stole a 1000 dollars for my dying child, to give him food and i go to jail. I pretty much SACRIFICED myself for my dying child but at the same time I also stole.

Come on its basic english.
 

manama

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Actually no wait,

If I am poor and my child is dying of starvation and I kill myself so my life insurance will give my child money so he can live his life, get food and education etc im killing myself for my child no? Then its not suicide? lol
 

Haich

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From where I stand, I might decide that all the really nice people might make it, and below a certain standard, others might stay outside. This doesn’t take into account the perfection of heaven or the perfection of God
Nice isn't enough, I mean Nigel Farage is nice. He greets people, he smiles. Doesn't mean he's deserved of heaven...ultimately it isn't our call, God can forgive and forget or he may choose not to. It's His kingdom and nobody can be guaranteed entry just because of a blood sacrifice, it makes no sense because you still sin and there are still a lot of things we all do which isn't 'Godly'. Some people watch porn, some people fondle kids and some people oppress others. The rural farmer being shortchanged by huge companies will never see justice according to you...if the rural farmer is Hindu and the company leaders are Jewish, they're still going to hell regardless of the injustices they've experienced or the crimes they've committed. So, their actions go unanswered an unaccounted for...so that Hindu dies and goes to hell after living a crappy life in destitution and the Jewish fat cat laughs his way to the bank and goes to hell smiling since he's got away with swindling the less fortunate?

How does christianity actually address and solve and conclude the serious injustices of life? Believing in Jesus didn't help the Hindu and the father is looking on doing nothing?

In islam, every soul regardless of faith shall see the fruits of the good they do but also the bad. Every person shall get a chance to put their case to God, no injustice will be left or pushed to the side. That's why I'm a Muslim personally, I know that the scum of this earth will have to face God's judgement and i know that the poor farmer will be rewarded for the patience he endured.

It makes sense and it is a logical conclusion to this life.
 

Robin

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Why is there a hierarchy in the trinity? They cant have the same nature if they aren't capable of the same things.

You aren't making sense at all, how can you not see that?
Maybe a better analogy is that space contains three dimensions, yet the dimensions are not separate ‘parts’ — the concept of ‘space’ is meaningless without all three dimensions.
Jesus said: ‘My Father is greater (meizon) than I’ (John 14:28). But this refers to the Father’s greater position in Heaven, not superior nature. Philippians 2:5–11states that Jesus had equality by nature with God, but voluntarily took on the lower position of a servant. The same arguments apply to related passages about Jesus submitting to His Father’s will.
The word ‘better’ (kreitton) would have been used to describe superiority in nature if this is what had been meant. Indeed, kreitton is used to describe Jesus’ superiority in His very nature to the angels (Hebrews 1:4). The distinction can be illustrated in the human realm by the role of the Prime Minister — he is greater than us in position, but he is still a human being like us, so is not better in nature.

Other than that I have no explanation as to why Jesus allowed himself to forgive sins and be worshipped -two things reserved solely for God. If he were not of the same substance/being as God then the religious scribes were correct and he would've been a blasphemer.
 

manama

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If heaven and hell is entirely based on "faith" then its awfully unjust because your deeds have nothing to do with it. So if you were a good person who never wronged anyone? Hell for you. If you are a child rapist? Hell for you too. How is this just?
How can two people doing two completely awful things, be given the same punishment?

If the guy in your neighborhood who stole a candy from a store got 10 years in prison and a guy who massacred 50 people in cold blood also got 10 years in prison, would you ever call that justice? Would you ever say that those two things deserve the equal amount of punishment?
 

Robin

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By this definition Trinitarian cannot be considered monotheism. This definition says there are three different God's who all have the same nature.
No because they are not three separate gods. Do you believe that Jesus forgave people their sins in his time on earth? Or that he allowed worship in several places whereas angels and men had rejected it? Because if Jesus was just an ordinary man, unless all of those instances were falsified (in which case one might as well rip the whole bible to shreds), then what he did was heretical.
 

Wigi

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And the concept of salvation comes from god taking his life no?
Comes from Jesus giving His life.
It's sacrifice then.


Suicide can be a sacrifice and yet still be suicide. You can kill yourself and its suicide
When you kill yourself, it's only a suicide.

If i stole a 1000 dollars for my dying child, to give him food and i go to jail. I pretty much SACRIFICED myself for my dying child but at the same time I also stole
But this has nothing to do with suicide.
 

Haich

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A suicide is inherently selfish since you decide to take your life
If I remember correctly, Jesus didn't want to die and asked The Father to follow through with his own will.

1. Jesus didn't have the same will as the father so they can't have and can't be of the same nature. They must have the same nature and will to be equal.

2. Jesus didn't really commit suicide if we take that verse into consideration (where he asks the father to do his will sorry, don't have the verse) so it's actually The Father murdering his son since The Father's will is greater than Jesus's.

The correct conclusion to this is that Jesus didn't want to offer himself up as a sacrifice so asked The Father to murder him.

Depending on what trinitarian doctrine you follow, either Jesus offered himself up for sacrifice (which is suicide since you're killing yourself) or The Father murdered him.
 
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