The reliability of Christian and Muslim texts compared

elsbet

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https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-reliability-of-christian-and-muslim-texts-compared.6196/post-232040



Yes, Jinn are like us in a lot of ways and they have the same issues with believers and disbelievers etc. Some Jinn end up in "hell", others in "heaven", just like us.
Thanks for the response on jinns in heaven...

The carnal nature of heaven/ jannah, though---> you say it is symbolic? Of what, I wonder.

Wine that is not intoxicating (ie grape juice), women (houri) that are eternal virgins (it is quite graphic) and jinn (spirits / genies) etc. is wildly different from the Abrahamic faiths, which make no mention of such things, certainly not as rewards-- other Eastern religions do, though, like Hinduism, hare krishna. Seems pretty straightforward.
 
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The carnal nature of heaven/ jannah, though---> you say it is symbolic? Of what, I wonder.
I literally stated in that link "bliss, ecstasy, transcendence, union with God" etc. It's not a "place", it's a state after death.

There's heaven and hell, you know the rest.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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The case of the suspicious "as".

@JoChris still waiting for you to come up with a better paradise.
OK - the as is implied by the context and italicised in the King James. Reading the wider context and observing the outcomes of God’s anointing on Moses illustrates the purpose of God’s words here.

In addition, the plagues of Egypt prefigure the judgement that will come on the whole earth during the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” (The Tribulation) in which God himself will judge and bring calamity on those who reject His Son.

Sometimes in the Bible, hyperbole is used to highlight a point, not to create heresies.
 
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Revelation 21 King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Given this verse @Infinityloop - how would you interpret it?
Not how you would, given that I don't buy into the Christian narrative about the Apocalypse of Saint John ("Book of Revelation") to be a book about the end times.


However given that verse alone, it could easily imply reincarnation.

Do you interpret this as a literal physical earth that we will return to if we accept Jesus as mangod?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Do you interpret this as a literal physical earth that we will return to if we accept Jesus as mangod?
Interesting question - do you believe there was a literal Eden?

When the Bible refers to the “restoration of all things”, what do you think is meant?


Acts 3:21 (NKJV)

21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
 

manama

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OK - the as is implied by the context and italicised in the King James. Reading the wider context and observing the outcomes of God’s anointing on Moses illustrates the purpose of God’s words here.

In addition, the plagues of Egypt prefigure the judgement that will come on the whole earth during the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” (The Tribulation) in which God himself will judge and bring calamity on those who reject His Son.

Sometimes in the Bible, hyperbole is used to highlight a point, not to create heresies.
And why would the "made you a God" in this verse which is being said BY God be a hyperbole because moses performed a miracle but a layman calling jesus "my god" after jesus performed a miracle. not be a hyperbole.

but the as does not exist in KJV at all, its not italicized etc, it just simply does not exist. in Every kjv it says "i made thee a God" not "i made thee like a God" or "as a God".

And why is this not a proof of people changing verses according to what they believe, adding an "As" or "like" in other versions (not kjv) to make it fit trinity.
 
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So, 14 pages in, are you Christians gonna do anything to defend your Bible at all?
afterall you've only spoken about it in around 2 posts in total.

Convince us of the supposed authority of the Bible? Go!
I'm waiting.



(also, any appeals to chronology will be disqualified, you know they are only fallacious and do more harm to you than good)
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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And why would the "made you a God" in this verse which is being said BY God be a hyperbole because moses performed a miracle but a layman calling jesus "my god" after jesus performed a miracle. not be a hyperbole.

but the as does not exist in KJV at all, its not italicized etc, it just simply does not exist. in Every kjv it says "i made thee a God" not "i made thee like a God" or "as a God".

And why is this not a proof of people changing verses according to what they believe, adding an "As" or "like" in other versions (not kjv) to make it fit trinity.
You may be familiar with the story of Moses with the signs of the rod which was thrown down before Pharaoh, turns into a snake and then is picked up to become a rod once more? Then he shows the sign of the hand which is placed inside his cloths and turns leprous, is placed again and is restored?

That background leads to another incident which sounds like some serious hyperbole from Moses:-

Numbers 12 (KJV)
12 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.​
2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.​
3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)​

4 And the Lord spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out...​

Here Moses has taken a gentile bride and is criticised by Aaron and Miriam for doing so. He then makes an apparently extraordinary claim about his own humility. Why?

Does this prefigure anything?

What happens next?

5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.​
6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.​
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.​
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?​
9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.​
10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.​
11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.​
12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.​
13 And Moses cried unto the Lord, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.​
14 And the Lord said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.​
15 And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again.
16 And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran.​
What I have come to notice over the years of studying the Bible is the use of “accidentals” - if you have a musical background you may already know about these... they are placed to get your attention, then find resolution in the later phrases of the song:-


Setting these ideas up, we have apparently ineffective parlour tricks that Moses shows to Pharaoh which his magicians were able to replicate. We then have an apparently grandiose claim to humility, followed by an inexplicably severe judgement on Miriam requiring a miracle to set right!

You may be familiar with the incident where Moses crafts a bronze serpent - after Jesus had died and “become sin” for us, the full meaning was unlocked:-

John 3

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.​
In the same way, Moses patterns Jesus (illustrated by the “accidental” of a claim to greater humility than any man of the face of the earth) taking the Church as a gentile bride, the Jews speaking against her in envy (see the speech of Stephen) and ultimately the Jews being cut off and put out of the land (Miriam’s exile).

Exile is not the end of her story though - God is merciful and restores Miriam back to the camp after seven days [God’s perfect measure of time] just as God has (and will) restore Israel. After that restoration the people were able to move on in their journey to the Promised Land.

Part 1 of 2 btw...
 

manama

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You may be familiar with the story of Moses with the signs of the rod which was thrown down before Pharaoh, turns into a snake and then is picked up to become a rod once more? Then he shows the sign of the hand which is placed inside his cloths and turns leprous, is placed again and is restored?

That background leads to another incident which sounds like some serious hyperbole from Moses:-

Numbers 12 (KJV)

12 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.​


2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.​


3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)​

4 And the Lord spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out...​

Here Moses has taken a gentile bride and is criticised by Aaron and Miriam for doing so. He then makes an apparently extraordinary claim about his own humility. Why?

Does this prefigure anything?

What happens next?

5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.​


6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.​


7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.​


8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?​


9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.​


10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.​


11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.​


12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.​


13 And Moses cried unto the Lord, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.​


14 And the Lord said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.​


15 And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again.


16 And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran.​

What I have come to notice over the years of studying the Bible is the use of “accidentals” - if you have a musical background you may already know about these... they are placed to get your attention, then find resolution in the later phrases of the song:-


Setting these ideas up, we have apparently ineffective parlour tricks that Moses shows to Pharaoh which his magicians were able to replicate. We then have an apparently grandiose claim to humility, followed by an inexplicably severe judgement on Miriam requiring a miracle to set right!

You may be familiar with the incident where Moses crafts a bronze serpent - after Jesus had died and “become sin” for us, the full meaning was unlocked:-

John 3

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.​

In the same way, Moses patterns Jesus (illustrated by the “accidental” of a claim to greater humility than any man of the face of the earth) taking the Church as a gentile bride, the Jews speaking against her in envy (see the speech of Stephen) and ultimately the Jews being cut off and put out of the land (Miriam’s exile).

Exile is not the end of her story though - God is merciful and restores Miriam back to the camp after seven days [God’s perfect measure of time] just as God has (and will) restore Israel. After that restoration the people were able to move on in their journey to the Promised Land.

Part 1 of 2 btw...
You may be familiar with the story of Moses with the signs of the rod which was thrown down before Pharaoh, turns into a snake and then is picked up to become a rod once more? Then he shows the sign of the hand which is placed inside his cloths and turns leprous, is placed again and is restored?

That background leads to another incident which sounds like some serious hyperbole from Moses:-

Numbers 12 (KJV)

12 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.​


2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.​


3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)​

4 And the Lord spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out...​

Here Moses has taken a gentile bride and is criticised by Aaron and Miriam for doing so. He then makes an apparently extraordinary claim about his own humility. Why?

Does this prefigure anything?

What happens next?

5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.​


6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.​


7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.​


8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?​


9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.​


10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.​


11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.​


12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.​


13 And Moses cried unto the Lord, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.​


14 And the Lord said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.​


15 And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again.


16 And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran.​

What I have come to notice over the years of studying the Bible is the use of “accidentals” - if you have a musical background you may already know about these... they are placed to get your attention, then find resolution in the later phrases of the song:-


Setting these ideas up, we have apparently ineffective parlour tricks that Moses shows to Pharaoh which his magicians were able to replicate. We then have an apparently grandiose claim to humility, followed by an inexplicably severe judgement on Miriam requiring a miracle to set right!

You may be familiar with the incident where Moses crafts a bronze serpent - after Jesus had died and “become sin” for us, the full meaning was unlocked:-

John 3

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.​

In the same way, Moses patterns Jesus (illustrated by the “accidental” of a claim to greater humility than any man of the face of the earth) taking the Church as a gentile bride, the Jews speaking against her in envy (see the speech of Stephen) and ultimately the Jews being cut off and put out of the land (Miriam’s exile).

Exile is not the end of her story though - God is merciful and restores Miriam back to the camp after seven days [God’s perfect measure of time] just as God has (and will) restore Israel. After that restoration the people were able to move on in their journey to the Promised Land.

Part 1 of 2 btw...
I know the entire story, that is not the point.

The point is that if the Moses one is taken to be "not literal" why is the verse about Jesus taken literally? Both circumstances are actually very similar. Infact Bible throughout it refers to many men as the "sons" of God or children of God and many refer to God as their father. Why would the Jesus one be the only taken literally?

The "as" is clearly an addition in the verse in other versions of the Bible while it doesn't exist in the KJV. If i am to take KJV as the true or most accurate version then God literally is telling Moses that he made Moses a God. If I take the other versions as the accurate ones then while it would make sense, it being an addition in the original script is clearly a sign of corruption done to support trinity.

Knowing the story isn't enough because knowing both stories are what makes people disbelieve in trinity in the first place. We have Christians who reject trinity because of that.


Come on Red, if you are willing to disbelieve in our claim of Quran's preservation because two men who don't know Arabic grammar think that writing in a different font means change, then surely you can do better than that when it comes to your own scripture.
Talking in circles or the tactics of priests will do no good to either you or me. If they worked then almost everyone on earth wouldve been religious.
 

JoChris

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The case of the suspicious "as".

@JoChris still waiting for you to come up with a better paradise.
If people search the bible they will see it in many places.
https://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/where-is-heaven

The first most obvious search is using actual keyword "heaven". www.biblegateway.com If you limit searches to New Testament, especially the Book of Revelation it becomes easier to imagine heaven itself.

Believers will meet and see God face to face and be with Him for eternity.

John 14:14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.


1 Thessalonians 4:17 [rapture verse, for those who are on Earth when Jesus comes] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect....
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear....

Hebrews 12:22-29

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.



There is not a single word about feasting in the Christian bible, lying about on sofas, men having as much sex as a man could possibly want with multiple wives etc etc.
Heaven in the bible is all about God and His bride (the church). Heaven in the Quran looks like it is nothing but pleasing the self via sex and feasting.
 

JoChris

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So, 14 pages in, are you Christians gonna do anything to defend your Bible at all?
afterall you've only spoken about it in around 2 posts in total.

Convince us of the supposed authority of the Bible? Go!
I'm waiting.



(also, any appeals to chronology will be disqualified, you know they are only fallacious and do more harm to you than good)
Search archaeology on any historical event clearly mentioned in the bible.
No matter how hard atheists try there is always evidence that supports the bible, or at very least does not contradict it.

Bible Scenes Uncovered in Ruins of Ancient Synagogue --On a hill above the Sea of Galilee in northern Israel, archaeologists have discovered one amazing fifth-century floor mosaic after another. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/07/mosaic-synagogue-huqoq-israel-magness-archaeology/

News links of latest historical finds: https://www.timesofisrael.com/topic/biblical-archaeology/

If you limit searches to site:.edu you are even more likely to find scholarly material on more specialised topics.

---
Your go now. Please find NON_ISLAMIC information sources that supports Muhammad's claims about history in the Quran. [You know your Quran, therefore you should know where they are.]
 
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Search archaeology on any historical event clearly mentioned in the bible.
No matter how hard atheists try there is always evidence that supports the bible, or at very least does not contradict it.
There's not a lot out there that "supports the Bible", only things which confirm the existence of some of the cultures that correlate to some of the Bible. You don't have any confirmations or direct evidence, only hypothesis and things which you place into that hypothesis. Your claim also supports you as much as us, which you should know already.

Is this really your best argument? arbitrary archaeology? you know that you're repeating the same argument Mormons make.

I did ask for you to actually defend the supposed authority of your transmission-less compilation of anonymous authors but you have none and you know it. You have none, nor do you have any direct revelation from God and it makes you envious because deep down you know your anonymous Bible compilation is not authoritative at all.

Your go now. Please find NON_ISLAMIC information sources that supports Muhammad's claims about history in the Quran. [You know your Quran, therefore you should know where they are.]
You're not really asking a question here. We could use the same 'evidence' you just did, wouldn't prove anything to support you or us. Mainstream history does know about tribes of Jews 2500 years ago, as they do Hindus 30000 years ago.
 
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