The reliability of Christian and Muslim texts compared

Haich

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To be fair Haich, all that Jay and Al-Fadi have done is to provide an overview to a new book by Dan Brubaker that may or (may not ;-) contain legitimate observations on the textual integrity of the original copies of the Qur’an.

At present, his book is only available in hard back and costs $30 so much as I would like to give you a full scholarly reply and perhaps learn Arabic (!) I will have to content myself with making you aware of such critiques and allow time, cross examination and others to review the claims he makes.

Sometimes a quick response is appropriate and polite, other times it is simply an invitation to further research...
Actually I was hoping you could acknowledge the clear errors in what he'd found but that's ok, I think your response tells me that you want to prod the discussion and enter it when you see fit, but when I or someone else responds, you don't want to comment on it. That's okay.

I didn't respond in arabic I responded in English so not sure what you're talking about there.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Actually I was hoping you could acknowledge the clear errors in what he'd found but that's ok, I think your response tells me that you want to prod the discussion and enter it when you see fit, but when I or someone else responds, you don't want to comment on it. That's okay.

I didn't respond in arabic I responded in English so not sure what you're talking about there.
@Haich - In all honesty, the material that Jay and Al-Fadi presented looked quite persuasive to me, but I am aware that the human heart looks for confirmation either against unwelcome ideas or for agreeable ones.

For Muslims, the assurance that the Qur’an is the word for word record of Muhammad’s writings is important.

Christians are also understandably weary of the repeated claim that the Bible has been so corrupted so a new contradictory text had to be supplied by God.

Both parties will be looking for evidence to support their stances. I have been fortunate enough to have the resources to address (at least to my own satisfaction) the fact that the overwhelming “corruption” that entered into biblical texts comes from bowing to a small number of Alexandrian texts which seem to be significantly influenced by second and third century Gnosticism.

http://www.verhoevenmarc.be/PDF/GnosticCorruptions.pdf

Dan published his doctorate on 20 Qur’anic discrepancies but will ultimately be publishing a wider volume on the hundreds of them. This is not to say that the Qur’an is a good record of Muhammad’s record but it does seem to point to something less than perfection.

The caveat I would give is that polemicists like Jay Smith might seize on examples of supposed discrepancy and want to make use of those as an argument tool. The same might be said of @friend wanting to make use of the RSV, yet not (yet) wanting to look at critiques of the “Critical Text”.

As truth has nothing to fear from examination, I suggest both “sides” of this discussion examine both sets of evidence with a cool and dispassionate head.
 
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manama

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Name calling isn't a valid strategy. Quite frankly now - grow up.

I give you all a challenge - Christian Prince - a Christian (never a Muslim either)has a call in show, probably compatible with your time zones.
When you call in, please give the YouTube link so we can see how you destroy his arguments.

Here is his channel. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCREm-7-ibgdtu_yMZYWYX0A

You all believe the Quran is so infallible - prove it to the apologist too. It will be fascinating to listen to.

Edit:

His introduction to explain he is and his qualifications.
The one who needs growing up is not me here, i'm not the one disrespecting Christianity, the bible or Jesus or Paul because i'm insecure about the relevance of my faith,

1400 years and the Quran has been remembered perfectly off by heart by every Muslim? Now that is faith. No point arguing with you about that. (It is as pointless as arguing with a patient with dementia that they had just had dinner.)

You have an equal amount of faith that the Quran has been perfectly preserved with no errors etc.

The bible is extremely long, yes - that is why only people with photographic memories could possibly learn it off by heart.

I think I asked this question earlier:
all these people who learn the Quran off by heart - do they actually know Arabic as well?
Could you translate EVERY passage you recited to me when asked on the spot as well?
I do remember word to word translations to every chapter i know. Most people do. Why is this even a test?

Its not "Faith", i don't like blind faiths. I wouldn't believe in the oral tradition so definitely had i not seen it everyday since being born. At the same time I am not stupid enough to disbelieve something entirely just because i can't remember something, nobody can. I could name every nerve or bone in your body, but the chances are you can't do that or atleast everyday norm. That doesn't mean that people can't remember the names of every nerve or bone in the body, it just means those who haven't learned them, don't.

But every religion has its own kinds of people like how almost the Christian youth barely goes to church or reads the Bible, we have that too.

Muslim apologetics 101 = if cornered, change the topic :rolleyes:

So don't bother sis....Let God do the rest;

26 “‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them. - Acts 28:26-27
Oh no Satan quoted the scripture.
 

manama

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Highlights:

-Random person nobody asked for enters the chat
-Random person quotes and tries to "win" the argument
-Random person can not win the argument because random person's points are from google that everyone has seen and not their personal research
-Random person.exe has stopped working
-Random person.exe on backup reset
-Random person name calls us, makes fun of our faith instead of arguing like a person
-Random persons gets told they are acting bad
-REEEEEEEEEEEE NAME CALLING HOW COULD YOU AAAAAAAAAAAA RESPECTTTTTTTT

Today in weather news:

-answer my question people
-people answer questions and then question back and then ask why are they not getting their answers
-"I HAVE A LIFE YOU NEETS AND ILL BE THE ONLY ONE WHO DOES UNTIL DOOMSDAY"
 

JoChris

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So I ask Redsky to reply and I'm told sorry Christians have a life and can't reply.

Some of you are on here daily!

If you don't have a response that's fine, please don't blame life as you're constantly posting whenever the weather.

Also Jochris seems to be aggy, no one asked for you nor did I engage with you. So please, don't start quoting posts that have nothing to do with you!

Thanks
you have made similar comments Haich.

You step in to defend fellow Muslims on multiple occasions and that is understandable.
Jo was really frothing at the mouth.

Down boy!
Now THAT is childish. :rolleyes: Aren't you a teacher in your offline life? Shouldn't you have higher standards than that?
 
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JoChris

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I do remember word to word translations to every chapter i know. Most people do. Why is this even a test?
That was a serious question. I am interested in how many of you Muslims do know your whole Quran AND understand it at the same time.

In short - if any of you were shown ANY passage in the Quran, will you say to us on this forum that it is true, because you believe the Quran is the word of Allah and therefore true?
 

JoChris

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Hey @JoChris ! you have got it wrong all along.

we said there are hundred of thousands of muslims who have memorized Quran (only God knows the exact number, there are thousands of those who have memorized entire Quran in the faraway deserts and remote areas).
Thank you for giving a clear response to my sincere question. :) The others should follow your example.

That is sort of my point - only a small % of muslims would have the whole text learned off by heart.
Therefore a trustworthy translation of your religious texts are essential, otherwise over the centuries a lot may have been lost.
Wars, plagues, shorter lifespans etc would have had its toll on the number of first generations in battle surely?
lets stop talking! go to a mosque near you in Australia, find a Hafiz (a person who has memorized entire Quran) and ask him/her to recite by heart a chapter of Quran and listen (examine) to him/her word-for-word.
Neither willing nor able.
i live in a small town that doesn't have a mosque.
I won't watch foreign movies without subtitles, I most certainly won't listen to someone i don't understand either.
 

JoChris

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Again, you jump around everything I said.



Yes, this is not something that has been contested at all.



Yes, this is also not something that has been contested at all.



As said below and prior, the Qur'an is not Muhammad's word, so your post is continuing to be dishonest, strawmanning the Qur'an like this.
Now, eyewitness accounts?
The answer is no, because you do not have eyewitness accounts in the NT. So this question fails on not one, but two levels.



Protestants and Evangelicals usually more than other kinds of Christians. Earlier forms of Christianity certainly would have and do find sola scriptura to be an absurdity.



Wait a second, so you want me to prove to you from the Bible you've claimed to read, that you don't have any chain of transmission? are you for real?
Best thing you've got is listed genealogies connecting various people to other people (within the narrative/biographical structure nonetheless), which impacts nothing with transmission, only gives rough estimates of potential timespans throughout the course of time the Bible is supposed to take place within.



I don't care what you think of Muhammad, the Qur'an is not Muhammad's word, it's revealed to Muhammad, it gives him advice at various points, it corrects Muhammad in other places, do you not get this?
Like every Prophet before him.

Your disagreement is not with Muhammad, it's with God directly (and not through random people "inspired").



Simply reading the Bible disproves this assertion (which does tend to be a counter-Islam one at that). Aside from this, the verses you quoted are beyond simply just being vague, it is also used to support a bunch of self-validating assumptions.



Again, you're asking for special pleading here. Are you saying that Mount Sinai never happened?



Yep, this is among many things you take for granted.



This is very much an obsession of Evangelical Christians. I don't think many Archeologists would agree with this.
As far as what the Qur'an says, it is not concerned with such worldly things.
But as for your claim there, there is way too much ambiguity there.



The amount of things you've just ignored has been quite revealing to me of the nature of this conversation, I will keep this noted.
I answer what I think is important.

I will remember it also. I answer how I see fit, and my answers dismissed/ contradicted immediately.
I ask you (and others) questions and they are deflected immediately using various methods.

It is very rare for our questions to be answered. (That is why I complimented friend for doing that.)
 

JoChris

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Muslim apologetics 101 = if cornered, change the topic :rolleyes:

So don't bother sis....Let God do the rest;

26 “‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them. - Acts 28:26-27
Getting a clear response from Muslims on this forum is like trying to nail jello to the wall.
How much is culture clash/ genuine misunderstanding and how much is deliberate misunderstanding truly only God knows.
 
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I ask you (and others) questions and they are deflected immediately using various methods.
Don't accuse me of what you're doing please - even right here instead of discussing the topic you just ignore the entire post you're quoting.
Strange misunderstandings do not validate your weak polemic (at best). You ask things, I correct you as needed. Whether you comprehend anything I say is your problem.
 
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I answer what I think is important.

I will remember it also. I answer how I see fit, and my answers dismissed/ contradicted immediately.
I ask you (and others) questions and they are deflected immediately using various methods.

It is very rare for our questions to be answered. (That is why I complimented friend for doing that.)
You can learn to ask better questions and study up further on what are often quite trivial things.
 

elsbet

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While Dr Brubaker only refers to 22 corrections in his book, he and others have found over 4,000 of these corrections in the earliest Qur’anic manuscripts, proving massive censorship.

Correction Example 14: Here we have erasures, which leave gaps in Surah 4:167 in the Topkapi manuscript (Topkapi Codex, fol. 65r).

In the first example we find an erasure of the first letter of Allah. In the line directly above it, we see another erasure, but Dan hasn’t yet had time to look into it.

Further down, on the next line, we can see the shadow of what was first written, which was allāhi qad “Allah has already”; so, it used to say, “Surely those who disbelieve and hinder from the way of Allah have already strayed far into error”. With the correction it now says, “Surely those who disbelieve and hinder from the way have strayed far into error”. This correction goes away from the 1924 ‘Hafs’ text.

Correction Example 15: In this example we have an erasure leaving a gap in Surah 24:33, found in the Museum of Islamic Art, Doha (MIA, Doha, 2013.19.2, verso).

We find an erasure at the end of one line, which continues into the beginning of the next line. It occurs after the word فضله faḍlihi “his grace”, and before والذين wa-alladhīna “and those who”. There is no way to know what was first written in the spaces erased; but it now corresponds to the 1924 ‘Hafs’ text, proving intentional censorship.

Correction Example 16: We now come to an insertion in Surah 4:33, in the Hussayni manuscript, found in the Cairo Mosque (Cairo Mosque, mushaf al-sharif, fol.109r.).

The word kāna, “is,” was omitted when this manuscript was first written, and then added later on above the line. Only the first two letters are visible in the photograph though the full word kāna was presumably originally inserted here, written with a very fine nib. It now says, “And Allah has power over all things”, so that it finally conforms to the 1924 ‘Hafs’ text, and corresponds to the same formula found many times throughout the Qur’an.

Correction Example 17: Here we see an erasure which is then written over with the name ‘Allah’ in Surah 33:9, found in the National Library of Russia’s manuscript (NLR, Marcel, 11, fol. 7r.).

Interestingly, all but the first two letters of “ni ‘mat Allah” ‘The favor of Allah’ has been written over an erasure. Notice that a different nib and ink has been used, proving that a different hand of another scribe was employed. It’s also bunched together. It used to say, “ni ‘matihi” which means, ‘his favor’. It now says, “ni ‘mat Allah”, meaning ‘the favor of Allah’, so that it now conforms to the 1924 ‘Hafs’ text.

Correction Example 18: In this example we find an insertion above the line of the word ‘the hour’ in Surah 6:40, again from the National Library of Russia’s manuscript (NLR, Marcel, 7, fol. 7r.).

An insertion of the word ‘the hour’ has been written above the line. Notice that it uses a much narrower nib, suggesting once again a different scribe, and a much later date. It used to say, “Say, tell me if Allah’s torment comes upon you, or comes upon you…”. It now says, “Say, tell me if Allah’s torment comes upon you, or the hour comes upon you…”, so that it now conforms to the 1924 ‘Hafs’ text.

Correction Example 19: We now find an example of an erasure, written over with the name of ‘Allah’, in Surah 34:27, also found in the National Library of Russia’s manuscript (NLR, Marcel, 5, fol. 11r.)

The word “Huwa Allah” (‘he is Allah’) has been written in front of and over top of another word which has been erased. We cannot know what the original word would have been, but we see that it now conforms to the 1924 ‘Hafs’ text.

Correction Example 20: This example is an erasure of nearly a full line, which is overwritten with only a few words, in Surah 8:3 from the Museum of Islamic Art, Doha (MIA, Doha, 2014.491, fol.7v.).

One can see clearly that almost an entire line of text has been erased and then overwritten with the word “rizq” (‘provision’). We cannot know what the original phrase that was erased may have been. It now says, “wa-mimma razaqnahum yunfiqun”, meaning, “And out of what we have provided them (m.) they (m.) spend”. Notice that the initial ‘alif’ of the following verse is also added, so that it now conforms to the 1924 ‘Hafs’ text.

We have found that most of these corrections bring the existing text into conformity with a standard. But how can you correspond these texts unless a standard exists? And no standard existed prior to 1924. So, when were all these corrections carried out? We leave that for you to decide.

What all these corrections prove is that there has been a good amount of correcting, changing, deleting, adding and conforming the early Qur'anic manuscripts so that they correspond with the final canonized text which we use today, proving that the Qur'an could not have come from Allah, nor from Muhammad, nor from Uthman, but from mere men.
Interesting perspective, here, Red.


What Brubaker has done is examine a select few manuscripts which had errors and ignore the others which are in line with modern day texts.

Here are examples of manuscripts he used in his book but failed to mention that they correlated with modern scripts
They correlated to modern scripts. So.. to what do the modern scripts correlate? That was the point @Red Sky at Morning was making, I believe-- the standard seems to be a manuscript written in 1924, full of erasures and corrections.
... he and others have found over 4,000 of these corrections in the earliest Qur’anic manuscripts, proving massive censorship.

We cannot know what the original word would have been, but we see that it now conforms to the 1924 ‘Hafs’ text.​
We have found that most of these corrections bring the existing text into conformity with a standard. But how can you correspond these texts unless a standard exists? And no standard existed prior to 1924. So, when were all these corrections carried out? We leave that for you to decide.​
 

manama

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That was a serious question. I am interested in how many of you Muslims do know your whole Quran AND understand it at the same time.

In short - if any of you were shown ANY passage in the Quran, will you say to us on this forum that it is true, because you believe the Quran is the word of Allah and therefore true?
uh yeah we won't be Muslims if we didn't believe in the Quran, we aren't the ones who cherry pick stuff from our scripture.

I will pray that the true God will forgive you manama, in the name of Yeshua the Christ our Lord, Amen.
Weren't you interested in orgies a little while ago? Nice change lucy.
 

elsbet

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uh yeah we won't be Muslims if we didn't believe in the Quran, we aren't the ones who cherry pick stuff from our scripture.


Weren't you interested in orgies a little while ago? Nice change lucy.
lol

He was actually asking about your comment ---> Muslim-Orgies, in the afterlife (post no. 160). Since you said you'll be drinking, too, and otherwise carousing, in "paradise," the point is valid.

... it would be a wine that would not be intoxicating. God would allow us all that freedom after we pass the test of this world.
You know... it's just grape juice if it doesn't intoxicate-- and you can drink that now. Where is the "freedom" in that? Sounds like a rip off (or a clever deception-- because it is). Wine is for this world-- to think that worldly indulgences would be a part of the spiritual domain is very strange. Similar though to the Hindus, who believe the same.

Since you already know the wine doesn't work, you may want to seriously (re)consider the quality of the debauchery for which you're holding out. Just saying.
 
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He was actually asking about your comment ---> Muslim-Orgies, in the afterlife (post no. 160). Since you said you'll be drinking, too, and otherwise carousing, in "paradise," the point is valid.
This subject has already been tackled.

Do you Christians believe that "Heaven" is literally streets of gold? That an entire city will descend from the sky? a literal massive mansion for you and Jesus?



(and to clear things up, there are no literal descriptions of Jannah in Islam for a very important reason)
 

Haich

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you have made similar comments Haich.

You step in to defend fellow Muslims on multiple occasions and that is understandable.

Now THAT is childish. :rolleyes: Aren't you a teacher in your offline life? Shouldn't you have higher standards than that?
This isn't school, no one is defending anything other than the Quran we believe to be the literal word of God.

Don't talk about standards to me, you should take a long hard look at some of the nonsense you've written.
 
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