Do you believe secular Jewish state of Israel is prophesied in the Bible?

Lisa

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And for reference, that “wall” Trumps trying to put up is to stop an exodus. So its not about Mexicans coming in but the Israelites going out. And the people who it’s for will understand but those on the outside looking in....?
Where do you think the American Jews are trying to go? Mexico? Don’t many of them live on the east coast? Why build a wall in Mexico to keep them in? That doesn’t make a lot of sense actually.

The Old Testament doesn’t leave room for them “stumbling” before and AFTER entering the land that they were to only enter WHEN they obeyed Gods commandments. But what the OT explicitly says doesn’t matter until we’re trying to verify the NT.
Paul who was Jewish tells us that the Jews haven’t stumbled that they fell. They’ve only stumbled for a little bit till the fullness of the gentiles comes in. God is bestowing His grace on the gentiles and God is able to graft the Jews in again.

What you think is only relevant to yourself. What matters is what scripture says and I showed where it says Israel entering their land will happen by a chain of events. A chain of events that did NOT happen with the people you call Jews entering their created promised land. You can’t call the OT the word of God then disregard the chain of events God said a certain thing would happen in. Well you can do that but that seems to be the doings of a hypocrite...
He said He would bring them back in the land..not because of them, they profane His name and they do don’t they?
Ezekiel 36:22-25​
Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.

Then God says that they would be a cup of reeling and a heavy stone for all peoples..it surely is that. No one can can do anything to them without getting hurt themselves.
Zechariah 12:2-3​
Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.

Yep so you ignore one verse to hold the other up like I said you would. Instead of addressing why one says WHEN they obey you just hold up the other verse as if that verse overrules what’s being said by Moses who was told what to write by God (well according to the OT that you call the word of God) to the Israelites in the latter days. I knew this is where we’d end up though just thought I’d give it a go for old times sake
Because those verses talk about the end times which is why I bring them up all the time. You can say they don’t matter and give other verses all you’d like, but the truth is that Israel is in the land that God gave them. They are surrounded by enemies within and enemies without. Much of the world hates them and goes against them all the time. That goes with prophecy.

The Bible says that there will be a time of Jacobs trouble where God will again deal with Israel after the fullness of the gentiles comes in. In that time there will be another temple. How do we know? Because they will reinstate sacrifices. How do we know? Because in Daniel we are told that Jacobs trouble is 7 years long. In the middle of it they will put in end to sacrifices that were started again...because how can you end something unless it’s started again? So that would mean that Israel would have to be in their land again and have a temple there. They aren’t going to be believers because the want to build a temple. Christians don’t need temples like that.

When the sacrifice is stopped the antichrist will be in the temple and he will cause the abomination of desolation and after that some Jews will flee and God will hide them, others will be killed and the women raped.

All that doesn’t happen in America but in the Middle East, in Israel, Israel is in the right place at the right time.

Though I believe that Christians will also experience the end times because Paul tells us that Jesus isn’t coming back until after the abomination of desolation that happens at the midpoint. In fact we don’t get raptured until the end when Jesus comes back.
 

Lisa

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What about?

Hebrews
Chapter 8


1.Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
I think we should go back to Romans 11, how it talks about Israel’s role and how God hasn’t rejected His people. I understand that Jesus is the new covenant but we are just grafted in and Israel can be and will be grafted back in. They aren’t done yet.
 
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Same thing.
Tell that to anti-Zionist Jews who'd be offended by your insinuation. One of my very best friends just happens a (religious) Jew who has expressed his grievances over Israel to me countless times. It's not an uncommon thing to find.
 

Frank Badfinger

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I think we should go back to Romans 11, how it talks about Israel’s role and how God hasn’t rejected His people. I understand that Jesus is the new covenant but we are just grafted in and Israel can be and will be grafted back in. They aren’t done yet.
Question - Who are the Jews of Israel today? Are they the biblical Jews during Paul's time?

No they are not. They do not exist any longer. DNA evidence has shown that 97% of the world's Jew's are Ashkenazi and are not Semitic Jews.

In 2001, Dr. Ariella Oppenheim, of Hebrew University, a biologist, published the first extensive study of DNA and the origin of the Jews. Her research found that virtually all the Jews came from Khazar blood. Not only that but Oppenheim discovered that the Palestinians—the very people whom the Jews had been persecuting and ejecting from Israel’s land since 1948—had more Israelite blood than did the Jews. In sum, the vast majority of the Jews were not Jews; some of the Palestinians were. Some of the Palestinians even had a DNA chromosome which established that they were “Cohens”—workers at the ancient Temple and synagogues of the Jews.

The Definitive DNA Study

Now comes the ultimate, definitive DNA study, by Dr. Eran Elhaik and associates at the McKusick-Nathans Institute of Genetic Medicine, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. Entitled, The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses, and published by the Oxford Journal on behalf of the Society for Molecular Biology and Evolution, the study confirms Oppenheim’s research and the many scholarly books.

Dr. Elhaik and the prestigious Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine conclude in their report: “The Khazarian Hypothesis suggests that Eastern European Jews descended from the Khazars, an amalgam of Turkic clans that settled the Caucasus in the early centuries CE and Converted to Judaism in the eighth century…Following the collapse of their empire, the Judeo-Khazars fled to Eastern Europe. The rise of European Jewry is therefore explained by the contribution of the Judeo-Khazars.”
 

Frank Badfinger

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Today’s Jews (Zionist Israelis) did not descend from the ancient Israelites. DNA science proves that the “Jews” in Israel and around the world are predominantly of Khazar stock. They are mainly a Turkish-Mongol blood mixture, says Dr. Schlomo Sand, a Jew, and distinguished history professor from Tel Aviv University in Israel.

Sand’s heavily documented book is turning the Jewish world upside down.

One amazing fact is that the “Jews” who went to Israel from Europe in 1948 and set up the new nation have no history as a people of Israel. Instead, their ancestors were converts to Judaism. So those today who say they are “Jews” are not of Abraham. However, the Palestinians—mostly Moslem—are of Abraham!
https://hshidayat.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/zionist-jews-are-not-descendants-of-abraham-palestinians-are/
 
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Lisa

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Tell that to anti-Zionist Jews who'd be offended by your insinuation. One of my very best friends just happens a (religious) Jew who has expressed his grievances over Israel to me countless times. It's not an uncommon thing to find.
If you’re anti Zionist you don’t want the Jews to have a homeland, so that would also make you anti Jewish. Idk about your bf, doesn’t he/she know that God gave them the land forever? If they are religious they should at least know about God’s covenant with Abraham.
 

Lisa

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Question - Who are the Jews of Israel today? Are they the biblical Jews during Paul's time?

No they are not. They do not exist any longer. DNA evidence has shown that 97% of the world's Jew's are Ashkenazi and are not Semitic Jews.

In 2001, Dr. Ariella Oppenheim, of Hebrew University, a biologist, published the first extensive study of DNA and the origin of the Jews. Her research found that virtually all the Jews came from Khazar blood. Not only that but Oppenheim discovered that the Palestinians—the very people whom the Jews had been persecuting and ejecting from Israel’s land since 1948—had more Israelite blood than did the Jews. In sum, the vast majority of the Jews were not Jews; some of the Palestinians were. Some of the Palestinians even had a DNA chromosome which established that they were “Cohens”—workers at the ancient Temple and synagogues of the Jews.

The Definitive DNA Study

Now comes the ultimate, definitive DNA study, by Dr. Eran Elhaik and associates at the McKusick-Nathans Institute of Genetic Medicine, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. Entitled, The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses, and published by the Oxford Journal on behalf of the Society for Molecular Biology and Evolution, the study confirms Oppenheim’s research and the many scholarly books.

Dr. Elhaik and the prestigious Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine conclude in their report: “The Khazarian Hypothesis suggests that Eastern European Jews descended from the Khazars, an amalgam of Turkic clans that settled the Caucasus in the early centuries CE and Converted to Judaism in the eighth century…Following the collapse of their empire, the Judeo-Khazars fled to Eastern Europe. The rise of European Jewry is therefore explained by the contribution of the Judeo-Khazars.”
You don’t really believe this do you? Do you really think that God can’t bring His people back into the land He gave them? That He doesn’t know who His chosen people are? Just because they have rejected Him doesn’t mean He’s rejected them...like Paul says may it never be!!! As a Christian we shouldn’t be against His chosen people, He chose them, they are His people and He’s always dealt with them, let God deal with His people. We don’t want to be a part of the crowd that curses them.

However, the Palestinians—mostly Moslem—are of Abraham!
That may be but they are not the chosen people...Ishmael was not part of the covenant, only Issac was...Issac was the promised child and that’s the descendant that God chose the covenant to go through, not Ishmael.
 

Lisa

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The resident secularists are quite possibly and justifiably going to get pissed at us for bickering about the Bible in a forum not reserved for that purpose: to wit, the Religion and Spirituality sub-forum :).
The op should have put this in the religion section but didn’t. This thread was started with religion in mind when they quoted a Bible verse and nothing else.
 

Mark

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@Lisa Just reading the word 'everlasting' in your English bible and taking it to mean forever is an approach that is too basic, particularly if (as is quite plain to see) you are not approaching scripture in an exegetical fashion. That word in Hebrew has a semantic range and can mean anything from: a season, end of this age, forever etc.
 

Lisa

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@Lisa Just reading the word 'everlasting' in your English bible and taking it to mean forever is an approach that is too basic, particularly if (as is quite plain to see) you are not approaching scripture in an exegetical fashion. That word in Hebrew has a semantic range and can mean anything from: a season, end of this age, forever etc.
1everlasting
adjectiveev·er·last·ing\ˌe-vər-ˈla-stiŋ\
1 : lasting or enduring through all time : eternal

Paul tells us it’s irrevocable as well
but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1irrevocable
adjectiveir·rev·o·ca·ble\i-ˈre-və-kə-bəl, ˌi(r)- sometimes ˌir-(r)ə-ˈvō-kə-\
: not possible to revoke : unalterable

So if you can’t revoke it..sure does seem everlasting/forever to me.
 

Lisa

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Because I don't feel you understood the point I was making in a previous post and so am trying to go about it another way.
So, are you trying to say that permanently is or isn’t permanent?
 

Lisa

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@Mark Hasn’t God been with the Jews all through their history? Is that what the Bible is all about, God being faithful to them when they weren’t always faithful to Him and His working on bringing them back to Him? He hasn’t abandoned them now after all that has He?

Edit:
Matthew‬ ‭12:31-32‬ ‭
Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”​
‭‭
 

Mark

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Yes and a prime example of this is here in Exodus:

Exodus 21 v 6:

Then his master shall bring him unto the Judges, and set him to the door, or to the post, and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall serve him forever.

@Lisa can you spot the impossibility here?
 

Mark

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Sorry you posted while I was typing, please stay with this one for a second.
 

Lisa

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Yes and a prime example of this is here in Exodus:

Exodus 21 v 6:

Then his master shall bring him unto the Judges, and set him to the door, or to the post, and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall serve him forever.

@Lisa can you spot the impossibility here?
My Bible says permanently, which I took to mean however long that person was alive.

God has a different word doesn’t He, He says everlasting. We know He is everlasting, without end, so its no big surprise that God would make a covenant that is as everlasting as He is.
 

Mark

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So looking at the text here:

This 'forever' must only be for a certain period of time since the servant will eventually die and cease to serve his master. So here we have an 'Olam' or 'forever' in scripture which is not eternal, but the forever refers to a certain period of time, in this case the entirety of the mans life.


My Bible says permanently, which I took to mean however long that person was alive.

Definition of permanent:
lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely.

So here you are taking the word 'permanent' to mean only a finite length of time. This is correct, but in being so surely points to the danger of a plain reading of the English text to back up your argument regarding the everlasting covenant in Genesis 17.
 
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