The reliability of Christian and Muslim texts compared

[manama]

The oldest copy ended up in Birmingham University Library because it was God's will for that happen so more careful analysis by outsiders to Islam can be done on Islamic texts, not just us having to trust what Muslims say as usual(and hoping they are not omitting anything that puts Islam in a negative light - that has happened repeatedly).

Yeah because God loves theft
Both of those scenarios have led to mass scale deaths so no.

 

[manama]

So you're good with some man taking it in and of himself (who isnt a Prophet or heard anything from God himself) to take the other copies of the Bible he could find and burn them and present you with his version of what that Bible is and call it the real version of the Bible? You would take that man made version as being legit?

Don't you guys believe in a bible thats written way after Jesus and even those don't have an original version left behind? Atleast Quran wasn't written down after the prophet's death, it was COMPILED after his death, the most "changes" being addition of symbols on top of the script to indicate vowel sounds. And it wasn't compiled by any man, it was compiled by his closest friends and families who were also his most trusted fellows but also the CALIPHS of the entire nation.
Don't go on anymore about changes in script because honestly all you've been doing is showing us that you don't know how grammar or languages in general work.

The caliph of an entire nation who was also the prophet's beloved friend and most trustworthy companion compiling the book is bad but king james doing it when he didn't even know jesus is fine? Lol.

Plus like everyone else said, Quran survives through Muslims, we remember the book. Go to tribal areas in Asian countries and find some poor Muslims and I can guarantee you, those people might not know how to read or write but even they would remember the chapters of the Quran word by word, with the perfect pronunciation.

 

[Infinityloop]

That is your worldview talking.
A Muslim will not say that the bible is God- inspired, a Christian does.

You know my comment was speaking categorically.
The Qur'an itself claims to be divine Revelation sent to Prophet Muhammad for mankind, the Bible contains no such books in it's compilation (not even the famed Pentateuch).
The Bible's assorted books contain everything from narratives/biographical accounts to poems/hymns, to letters etc.

Remember I'm speaking categorically here.

You believe those books are 'inspired', as most Christians and Jews do, this is ok (afterall there is truth in it), but you have to really think more clearly about what you are upholding within the scope of the Abrahamic tradition. What Jews and Christians take claim to, is far less direct and confrontational than what Islam does from the offset. There is a reason for this. There is also a reason why no surviving sacred texts before the Qur'an claim to be direct divine revelation, and why all others are either just narratives, ritual-practice or hymns. Likewise, there is also a reason that since the beginning of history God has revealed itself to Prophets.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Bring every point one by one with real evidence (not fake, created by the deceptive missionaries) so that Muslims on this forum explain the point (or deception).

OK @friend

While we are on this journey, would you like to cite your grounds for you regarding the rather maimed RSV being the most authoritative text of the Bible?

 

[Douglas Summers]

The guy with blue jacket has thoughts similar to yours, look how he deals with questions :

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The man is a carnal reader of the Bible....He has no understanding of the Bible, The Bible is a Spiritual Book. Until he sees himself as we are, He can not see God's Grace. What Scripture says is that man can not redeem man. God could find no man to intercede for the corruption of ALL men. This man thought that it is not fair or right to die for someone else's sins. You seem to think, like this man, that you can work and do good deeds to please God...Just as this man did. Most of what he quoted was OT under the Law. But man never kept the Law, nor can He. Thus the New Covenant. God would keep the law in our place to those who would accept it...It is called Grace. Even Satan can quote Scripture and tried to use it negatively on Christ. But Christ came back with Scripture that proved Satan wrong. You would do well to seek God instead of telling Him what is right or wrong. If a man paid for his own sins, there would be no man left....no, not one!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

i was talking about the holy Quran.

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-zionist-story.6096/page-4#post-229303

 

[Douglas Summers]

Just like the situation in the video, it is all circular argument fallacy.

We speak of what we know, You speak of what you do not know....The Karan is not a holy book.

 

[Douglas Summers]

a strong, based on evidence and logic, argument that was.

If I had not fellowshipped with God and received His Spirit, I might have fallen into and believed anyone of the FALSE prophets and their doctrines...and there are many. Christianity (born again believer) is not intellectual. It is Spiritual. Not an organization, but a living organism (Christ body) The Church, with Christ as the head of the body. There are many false prophets that claim to be Christians also.
In the Video, The man asked, "It is right for a man to die for someone else's crime or sin, The answer is no...it is not right or fair. But ALL men die! Why? Even thou we did not commit the same sin that Adam did, we, nevertheless inherit Adams nature...all men are sinners, there is none righteous...no not one. The penalty for sin is death. That is God's Law. And the penalty HAS to be paid, Therefore all men perish. Christ paid that penalty to satisfy God's demand of the Law. God prepared a body, Jesus the Christ of God to reconcile us to the Father (It is called grace and mercy) for all who believe in Christ by faith. Until we see our self as we are, you can not see God.

 

[manama]

So if Christ paid the penalty why does death still exist?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

So if Christ paid the penalty why does death still exist?

Is this a serious question for you @manama ?

 

[manama]

Is this a serious question for you @manama ?

Sure. Its confusing enough to be asked about.

 

[Douglas Summers]

So if Christ paid the penalty why does death still exist?

Death still exist for those who do not except God's Sacrifice (reject God). But the born again believer shall never die (John 11:25-26). But we will throw off this corruptible body, for flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God. If you knew anything about Christ, you would know these things.

 

[Haich]

Death still exist for those who do not except God's Sacrifice

Death exists for every living thing.

How do you expect a tree to accept jesus christ as it's lord and saviour?

 

[Haich]

Question to the Christians.

You guys believe jesus died for our sins. If that is a fact, why do I have to believe it? Why do I have to acknowledge that he died for my sins? What exactly does believing that he died mean, if you believe that in fact, he did die for my sins.

It seems that your faith is based on the acknowledgement of being saved by Jesus. But, he died for my sins anyway so...why am I going to hell? Why do I have to profess he did something for it to come true and apply to me, if you're saying he died for everyone's sins. Surely then, everyone is saved.

 

[Douglas Summers]

You guys believe jesus died for our sins. If that is a fact, why do I have to believe it? Why do I have to acknowledge that he died for my sins? What exactly does believing that he died mean, if you believe that in fact, he did die for my sins.

Because, in the beginning, God spoke to man and His creation was and still is a manifestation of God...So that you are without excuse. But instead of worshipping God (Obeying or believing Him) you went your own way. Look at the world you have created!!! So it pleased God to save those by faith, Because it is evident there is a God, and since you decided to trust your own selfish will that is against God's will You made up your own God that suits your ideas. So, it is by faith that we are save of which Abraham is the Father of when he believed God that He would give him a son...even at Abrahams old age.

 

[Infinityloop]

So if Christ paid the penalty why does death still exist?

And Sin.

 

[Haich]

Because, in the beginning, God spoke to man and His creation was and still is a manifestation of God...So that you are without excuse. But instead of worshipping God (Obeying or believing Him) you went your own way. Look at the world you have created!!! So it pleased God to save those by faith, Because it is evident there is a God, and since you decided to trust your own selfish will that is against God's will You made up your own God that suits your ideas. So, it is by faith that we are save of which Abraham is the Father of when he believed God that He would give him a son...even at Abrahams old age.

No, death cannot be a form of punishment because everything dies. It doesn't make sense.

Instead of spewing bible jargon, reflect on the statement you're saying. You are saying death is a punishment, so in effect, a cat dying or a baby dying is being punished for their sins according to your logic?

 

[JoChris]

You know my comment was speaking categorically.
The Qur'an itself claims to be divine Revelation sent to Prophet Muhammad for mankind, the Bible contains no such books in it's compilation (not even the famed Pentateuch).
The Bible's assorted books contain everything from narratives/biographical accounts to poems/hymns, to letters etc.

You are incorrect. What the bible says requires reading comprehension however, and some of that comprehension is spiritual.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. [Therefore existed before Quran, New Testament completed by end of 1st century AD.]

The bible is not written like God is speaking in the first-person continually ( with no time, place, details et. al. to help provide context).

Remember I'm speaking categorically here.

You believe those books are 'inspired', as most Christians and Jews do, this is ok (afterall there is truth in it), but you have to really think more clearly about what you are upholding within the scope of the Abrahamic tradition. What Jews and Christians take claim to, is far less direct and confrontational than what Islam does from the offset. There is a reason for this. There is also a reason why no surviving sacred texts before the Qur'an claim to be direct divine revelation, and why all others are either just narratives, ritual-practice or hymns. Likewise, there is also a reason that since the beginning of history God has revealed itself to Prophets.

See 2 Timothy 3:16-17 above.
The bible certainly claims to be God-inspired.

Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. [Written in Old Testament, therefore many centuries before Muhammad.]

That disproves your claim.

Luke 4:1-13
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. [Present tense, not future tense - therefore existed before the Quran].

2 Peter 2:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. [Third person of the Trinity, i.e. God.]

 

[JoChris]

Yeah because God loves theft
Both of those scenarios have led to mass scale deaths so no.

Was it theft or lost in transit? The article didn't give a hint either way.

 

[JoChris]

We have oral evidence, meaning people at the time of Prophet Mohammad memorised the entire Quran, so if a goat eats a part of written evidence or some one burns them, nothing will change because there were hundreds of people who had memorized the Quran.
today there are children as young as 6 who have memorized whole Quran (over 6000 verses) and in order to keep it safe in their hearts and not forget any part, they repeat a chapter or two every day.

That logic is puzzling to me. Nobody's memory is perfect. Not even a computer's.

All it would take is a few forgotten words here or there, a few added bits to add colour/ censorship purposes and over time verbal accounts only could lead to a religious form of Chinese whispers.

You have an incredible amount of faith in human memory.

All these people who memorise the Quran - do they know Arabic also, with 100% comprehension of the text?