No regard...for the desire of women

[manama]

I’ve met Him and know Him...

LOL

 

[Todd]

By the Bible’s, yes, you are.

No, only by your interpretation of the Bible

You even say you’re proud of being a heretic.

And then I listed the definition of a heretic which has nothing to do with the Bible.

 

[Lisa]

LOL

Serious!

 

[Haich]

Yes, I know Jesus personally, He died for my sins and I accepted Him as savior. That’s pretty personal wouldn’t you say?

Knowing someone personally requires that you spend time in their company. Unless Jesus was at your dinner table, you don't know him personally.

But muslims think of him as the perfect man and want to be like him...isn’t that worshiping him?

One of the perfect examples of mankind, as with all the other prophets who we consider as the exemplary men of our race. We don't bow down and worship them at all.

We love because God first loved us. We are all selfish people.

Speak for yourself.

You only love your version of Jesus because of monotheism? And that’s better than loving someone
who saves you from a bad punishment?

We love jesus and all the prophets because of what they did in the path of God. In the Quran, God sends peace and blessings upon them and we do the same.

I’m not sure what you mean prior to Jesus? Do you mean like parents? Yes, I love(d) my parents however I at least knew them..I don’t know Adam and Eve enough to say I love them

As in Moses? Men which came before jesus.

.

In bold.

 

[Lisa]

@Haich

Knowing someone personally requires that you spend time in their company. Unless Jesus was at your dinner table, you don't know him personally.

The Holy Spirit lives in my heart, I know God personally. When Jesus died for us, He also restored us to a relationship with God, so God is not impersonal, but a personal God.

One of the perfect examples of mankind, as with all the other prophets who we consider as the exemplary men of our race. We don't bow down and worship them at all.

Ya, idk how you guys think Mohammad was perfect he was quite scary in all that he did and lied a whole lot not to mention what he thought of women.

Speak for yourself.

You don’t think people are selfish?

We love jesus and all the prophets because of what they did in the path of God. In the Quran, God sends peace and blessings upon them and we do the same.

You love them because of their actions, but you didn’t know them personally how can you really love them?

Why would you feel the need to send peace and blessings on dead people though? Do they need your blessings? And how do you send peace?

As in Moses? Men which came before Jesus.

Why would I love Moses?

 

[manama]

Times like these are when I feel bad for Satan. Imagine ruining your whole life and dedicating it to this species.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Times like these are when I feel bad for Satan. Imagine ruining your whole life and dedicating it to this species.

I think that Satan sees not only what we are, but what we could be and wants to prevent that...

 

[Haich]

@Haich

The Holy Spirit lives in my heart, I know God personally. When Jesus died for us, He also restored us to a relationship with God, so God is not impersonal, but a personal God.

Sure.

Ya, idk how you guys think Mohammad was perfect he was quite scary in all that he did and lied a whole lot not to mention what he thought of women.

Alright.

You don’t think people are selfish?

You answered my question with a question.


You love them because of their actions, but you didn’t know them personally how can you really love them?

Their legacy lives on and we still learn from their lives to this day.
Why would you feel the need to send peace and blessings on dead people though? Do they need your blessings? And how do you send peace?

It's like a shout out. We're shouting out are brothers in faith but they'll need peace and blessings on the day of judgement, so it's written as a 'dua' or prayer for them. It's like saying rest in peace minus the contrived way we say it.


Why would I love Moses?

What do you know about him?

 

[manama]

I think that Satan sees not only what we are, but what we could be and wants to prevent that...

Can't destroy someone thats already self-destructing.

 

[justjess]

So lisa only loves jesus because he allegedly died for her sins. Boy...what a selfish type of love that is.

You see we love jesus because he came to represent God and relay the message of monotheism that came before him.

Should have learned your lesson girl

Can’t discuss love with someone who is incapable of it. Heart shriveled up deader than the grinch.

 

[Robin]

Adam was made in God’s image...

Genesis‬ ‭5:1‬ ‭​

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God​

​

‭‭Women were created to help Adam...I also left the part in there about them being man and wife.

Genesis‬ ‭2:15, 18-25‬ ‭​

Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.

Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.” For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

And from the New Testament..

Ephesians 5:25, 28-29​

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church.
‭‭

‭‭

I wouldn’t want to have a baby at 50 or 60, so I don’t call that wrong. Though I know women can have babies naturally at 50, my aunt is as around that age when she had her youngest son.

Good to know you're ok with being an afterthought. But that's not enough for me. Why would I want to worship a God whose only role for me is to be a companion to a man? And what does that say about women who are single and childless their whole lives?

 

[Axl888]

No, your point cant be the same as mine. The Quran has one voice. You guys have tons. My point was based on the authenticity of those random unnamed authors. You just rewrote what I said, so I was asking what your point was? Was it regarding the source of the Quran, it's authenticity...etc.?

Historically, it is believed a man was crucified. I didn't say this wasn't the case. In Islam, we believe that God saved Jesus and took him up to the heavens. We dont believe he was crucified, we believe someone else was. We believe Jesus is alive and is in the heavens. He will be back to fulfill his duty as the messiah and defeat the anti christ, then unite people and clarify the misconceptions of his divinity.

Even if I entertain the idea that jesus was crucified, which I dont believe to be the case as The Quran being the literal word of God for me, tells me that that's the case- it doesn't explain how he died for our present and future sins. It also doesn't explain or prove the case of his divinity. Theres no logical sense to it all and it seems in Christianity, logic is absent from certain discussions and you're just required to believe and have faith in vague translations of verses, written by dozens of random men.


Here's a detailed breakdown of the Islamic view on the crucifixion. It's a bit of a read but well worth it if you want to understand my view on the matter :

There is nothing strange about the Muslims rejecting this idea, because the Qur’aan in which they believe and accept what it tells them definitively states that that did not happen, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And because of their saying (in boast), ‘We killed Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allaah,’ — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them the resemblance of ‘Eesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]”

[al-Nisa’ 4:157]

Rather the problem rests with the Christians for whom the doctrine of the crucifixion and redemption has become a central issue, so much so that the cross is the symbol of their religion.

It is strange that they differ concerning the form of this cross which indicates their confusion about this fabrication.

There are differences between their Gospels and their historians regarding everything that has to do with the story of the crucifixion.

They differ concerning the timing of the Last Supper, which according to them was one of the events in the lead-up to the crucifixion. They differ concerning the traitor who led (the Romans) to Christ – did that happen at least one day before the Last Supper, as narrated by Luke, or during it, after Christ gave him the piece of bread, as narrated by John?

Was Christ the one who carried his cross, as John says, as was customary with one who was going to be crucified, according to Nottingham, or was it Simon of Cyrene, as the other three Gospels state?

They say that two thieves were crucified alongside Christ, one on his right and one on his left, so what was the attitude of these two towards the Messiah who was being crucified, as they claim?

Did the thieves scorn him for being crucified, and say that his Lord had abandoned him and left him to his enemies? Or did only one of them scorn him, and did the other rebuke the one who scorned him?

At what hour did this crucifixion take place – was it in the third hour, as Mark says, or in the sixth as John says?

What happened after the so-called crucifixion?

Mark says that the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom. Matthew adds that the earth shook and rocks crumbled, and many of the saints rose from their graves and entered the holy city, appearing to many. Luke says that the sun turned dark, and the veil of the Temple was torn in the middle, and when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God and said, “Truly this man was righteous.”

But John does not know anything about all that!

These are not the only weak elements and indications of falseness in the story of the crucifixion, as narrated in the gospels. Rather the one who studies the details of the gospel narratives of this story will, with the least effort, notice the great differences in the details of this story, which are such that it is impossible to believe it all or even any part of it!

How desperate are the failed attempts to fill this gap and conceal the faults of this distorted book. Allaah indeed spoke the truth when He said in His Book which He has preserved (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do they not then consider the Qur’aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction”

[al-Nisa’ 4:82]

Apart from the fact that the gospel accounts are not sound, and their authors themselves admit that they were not revealed to the Messiah in this form, nor were they even written during his lifetime, none of the witnesses were present at the events to which they testify, as Mark says:

“Then everyone deserted him and fled.”

Mark 14:50 – New International Version (NIV)

Because these events were not witnessed by anyone who narrated them, there is a great deal of room for imagination and poetic licence.

We will complete our discussion of the fable of the crucifixion of Christ (peace be upon him) by looking at what the Gospels say about the Messiah’s prediction that he would be saved from death:

On one occasion the Pharisees and chief priests sent the guards to arrest him and he said to them:

“I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not find me, and where I am, you cannot come.”

John 7:33-34 – NIV

Elsewhere he says:

“Once more Jesus said to them, ‘I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.’

This made the Jews ask, ‘Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, “Where I go, you cannot come”?’

But he continued, ‘You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.’

‘Who are you?’ they asked.

‘Just what I have been claiming all along,’ Jesus replied. ‘I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.’

They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.

So Jesus said, ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.’”

John 8:21-29 – NIV

Then at the end he tells them again:

“For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'”

Matthew 23:39 – NIV, also Luke 13:35

The Messiah, as these texts and others show, was certain that God would never hand him over to his enemies, and would never forsake him.

“But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

John 16:32-33

Because of that the passers by, and indeed everyone who attended the so-called crucifixion, mocked the Messiah, as the writer of this Gospel says (although that could not have been true):

“Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads

and saying, ‘You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!’

In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him.

‘He saved others,’ they said, ‘but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.

He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, “I am the Son of God.”’

In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.”

Matthew 27:39-44 – NIV

But it seems that Jesus’ certainty that God was with him began to waver, according to the distorted Gospel narrative, (although that could not have been true):

“Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, ‘Sit here while I go over there and pray.’

He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.

Then he said to them, ‘My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.’

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.’

Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping.

…
He went away a second time and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.’

When he came back, he again found them sleeping, …

So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, sayingthe same thing.

Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, ‘Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners’”

Matthew 26:36-45 – NIV

Luke describes the scene and says:

“And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow.

‘Why are you sleeping?’ he asked them. ‘Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.’”

Luke 22:44-46 – NIV

Because of this mockery of the message of Christ – according to their claims – and because Christ thought that God was with him and would never forsake him, then it follows that the writer who fabricated this dramatic scene would end it with a vision of the despair of the Messiah and his feelings of being abandoned by God – exalted be Allaah far above what the wrongdoers say. The fabricator says:

“From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land.

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?’--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Matthew 27:38-47 – NIV

See also Mark 15:34

If we understand what this story means when subjected to criticism, the same will apply to the doctrine of redemption and sacrifice that is based on it.

While there were three groups of credible eye witnesses during the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ, namely the early Christians (disciples & followers), the jews and the romans, you only focused on the Christians' account and the account of mohammad/koran (which btw not an eye witness) and left out the accounts of the jews (in Talmud) and the romans (their annals/records) which are equally credible and corroborate with the Christians' account that Jesus Christ was indeed crucified and died on the cross, and this is logically established historical facts.

And although you cited so-called "discrepancies" (debatable), these are insignificant and have no effect whatsoever to the essence of the Gospel which is the doctrine that Jesus Christ himself first taught to His disciples and then taught by His disciples to all believers from the first century until today. Those "random" authors (according to you) of the New Testament in fact taught the same most important message/doctrine of all, which is in order for you to be saved and have an everlasting life, you have to believe in Jesus Christ the only begotten son of God as your only savior who suffered and died on the cross for your sins, there is no contradiction on the core doctrine and they all say the same.

Furthermore, if the koran is the literal word of God, it should have come from God Himself directly revealing it to mohammad, as God Himself communicated directly with Abraham and Moses, and as the Apostles talked directly and walked along with Jesus Christ (The Word of God) Himself, but NO, according to mohammad an "angel" supposedly revealed the koran to him somewhere in a dark cave (600 years after Jesus), and so perhaps we can say that it is the literal word of an angel, but not of God.

 

[Lisa]

@Haich
Sorry, I’m not going to copy and paste anymore off that.

 

[Lisa]

Good to know you're ok with being an afterthought. But that's not enough for me. Why would I want to worship a God whose only role for me is to be a companion to a man? And what does that say about women who are single and childless their whole lives?

I personally don’t see what’s wrong with being a companion to someone you love...but I guess that’s just me.
I think it says that they may have been lonely their whole lives?

 

[Robin]

I personally don’t see what’s wrong with being a companion to someone you love...but I guess that’s just me.
I think it says that they may have been lonely their whole lives?

Eve didn't really have a choice to love Adam now did she? And not all people find love now do they? If you don't see what's so wrong about the idea of being created as a lesser being for the benefit of another then I can't explain it for you. I think the fact that you'd think that those women would automatically be lonely (never mind that not everyone needs another person to feel complete, never mind that there are a host of reasons for someone being single including *gasp* CHOICE) really shows the extent of your ability to force other people to fit your perception. I am going to bow out now.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Good to know you're ok with being an afterthought. But that's not enough for me. Why would I want to worship a God whose only role for me is to be a companion to a man? And what does that say about women who are single and childless their whole lives?

You could argue that God made woman last as the jewel of his creation! The notion of the “mystery” of marriage is that the Lord is tiring to teach us something bigger than just relationships through the way he has made things.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, the church would arrive after and be the recipient of his love and sacrifice. In the same way, in Gods order of things, the relation of the woman to the man is that of the church to Christ - loved.

Men and women break this pattern, or ideal, in the way they interact but this does not invalidate God’s plan in creating us with the capacity for those relationships.

 

[Vytas]

Or God seems to have no use or care for women outside of bearing children. Many of the early churchfathers seemed to agree and I'm sure @Lisa would too. Beautiful faith.

People in power will abuse power for their own purposes. What it has to do with anything ? Or church fathers +Lisa =God
? Who you want to be that God doesnt let you. Example please. Even Pauls writings are clearly recommendations and advices. For people's benefit....

 

[Serveto]

You could argue that God made woman last as the jewel of his creation! The notion of the “mystery” of marriage is that the Lord is tiring to teach us something bigger than just relationships through the way he has made things.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, the church would arrive after and be the recipient of his love and sacrifice. In the same way, in Gods order of things, the relation of the woman to the man is that of the church to Christ - loved.

Men and women break this pattern, or ideal, in the way they interact but this does not invalidate God’s plan in creating us with the capacity for those relationships.

One thing this doesn't seem to adequately take into account, from my perspective, is the history of treating -often mistreating- women in general as essentially responsible for having first introduced evil into the world by Eve, the prototypical woman, yielding to temptation and then sort of dragging the hapless, seemingly witless Adam into the bargain. In a way, what could be more unjust to Woman, uppercase W, than that? With this said, I do realize that there are many ways to interpret the story, for lack of a better word, and those not always as anti-woman, or misogynistically (excuse the awkward adverb), and those might be worth discussing.

I, personally, and because I am not particularly religious, don't see women any more or less given to evil than men on this, "fallen" side of Eden, so don't understand, nor necessarily accept, that she was on the other side of the Fall, but that is just me, using mere human logic and reason.

 

[Vytas]

Perhaps if @Vytas elaborated, or further explained what he meant, it might help as well . The translators of the KJV say "defiled" with women. Does that mean the 144,000 will not have slept with the Whore of Babylon? If so, why say women, plural, instead of woman, singular? Is the Babylonian Whore thought to be a plurality of women? I don't know.

Bride of christ is also singular...So single virgin then ?
I meant nothing, just offering an idea, that not everything is literal (maybe)

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

One thing this doesn't seem to adequately take into account, from my perspective, is the history of treating -often mistreating- women in general as essentially responsible for having first introduced evil into the world by Eve, the prototypical woman, yielding to temptation and then sort of dragging the hapless, seemingly witless Adam into the bargain. In a way, what could be more unjust to Woman, uppercase W, than that? With this said, I do realize that there are many ways to interpret the story, for lack of a better word, and those not always as anti-woman, or misogynistically (excuse the awkward adverb), and those might be worth discussing.

I, personally, and because I am not particularly religious, don't see women any more or less given to evil than men on this, "fallen" side of Eden, so don't understand, nor necessarily accept, that she was on the other side of the Fall, but that is just me, using mere human logic and reason.

Yet Adam didn’t “man up” by kicking the serpent out of the garden, explain things properly to Eve or speak up with what God had told him. After the event he blamed everyone but himself.

The narratives of history tell us more about the hearts of people providing them than the raw facts themselves!