No regard...for the desire of women

[Haich]

If you argue that all the above verses are interpolations or forced into His mouth, so to speak, I ask, how and when do you determine that? If the whole text is corrupt, Muslims would as soon dispense with the whole “Muhammad is predicted in the Torah” when they appeal to Isaiah 42 and Deuteronomy 17.

You quoted Matthew. Who the hell is he to me? With all due respect, I cant be asked to address such a nonsensical set of verses.

Your book has 40 odd random authors, it has so many versions and there are no original manuscripts which correlate to what you read today. How can I possibly take a book like that seriously?

We believe the Quran is the literal word of God. If you read the verses on jesus, you'd see that God clears up the whole begotten nonsense as well as the trinity and his divinity, but also the dying for the sins. This is not from God and we do not accept this.

 

[Karlysymon]

You quoted Matthew. Who the hell is he to me? With all due respect, I cant be asked to address such a nonsensical set of verses.

Your book has 40 odd random authors, it has so many versions and there are no original manuscripts which correlate to what you read today. How can I possibly take a book like that seriously?

We believe the Quran is the literal word of God. If you read the verses on jesus, you'd see that God clears up the whole begotten nonsense as well as the trinity and his divinity, but also the dying for the sins. This is not from God and we do not accept this.

Ok, so are you saying that the Quran quotes Jesus directly?
@bible_student posted this here. https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-coming-saviors-–-moshiach-messiah-mahdi.5949/#post-217831
Care to comment? Iam genuinely curious about the Ark, if it is mentioned in the Quran and not in reference to the Patriarchs.

Muslims may not believe Christ is The Mahdi until The Ark of The Covenant is revealed:

Sura 2:248 And (further) their Prophet said to them: “A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you The Ark of The Covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a Symbol for you if ye indeed have faith.”

 

[Haich]

Ok, so are you saying that the Quran quotes Jesus directly?
@bible_student posted this here. https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-coming-saviors-–-moshiach-messiah-mahdi.5949/#post-217831
Care to comment? Iam genuinely curious about the Ark, if it is mentioned in the Quran and not in reference to the Patriarchs.

Muslims may not believe Christ is The Mahdi until The Ark of The Covenant is revealed:

Sura 2:248 And (further) their Prophet said to them: “A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you The Ark of The Covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a Symbol for you if ye indeed have faith.”

The Quran is the word by word verses of God. He is the only voice but yes he does quote jesus the prophet which he sent. As he quotes what other prophets said so we actually know what really happened during their reigns....
Here are some verses, some direct quotations and others are references.

2:87 We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit.

2:136 We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them . . .

2:253 . . . To Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit.

3:45 O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

3:46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

3:48 And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel.

3:49 And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe."

3:50 (I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

3:52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?"

3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."

3:59 The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam . . .

3:84 . . . and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord.

4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

4:163 We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.

4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth.

4:172 Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah . . .

5:17 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary.

5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

5:72 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode.

5:75 Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food.

5:78 Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.

5:110 O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

5:112 Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have faith."

5:114 Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us-for the first and the last of us-a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."

5:116 Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart . . ."

So whatever agrees with this in the bible, is which we accept. However, due to the inconsistent and confusing nature of the modern bible, we tend to disregard it entirely but accept that there are some correlations especially when Jesus prays to the The Father. This to us shows he was a man and not divine...

Ok just a heads up that the Quran addresses different nations and some of its contents aren't for a modern audience but are there to give us an idea of what was happening at the time that chapter or verse was revealed. Here is a breakdown of the verse you posted:

https://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=2&verse=243&to=248

It also explains the verses which come before it. You can't expect a clear response if you quote just one verse, the quran flows and relies on the verse which either comes before or after it, depending on context. Otherwise you're just quoting a sentence in a large essay.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You quoted Matthew. Who the hell is he to me? With all due respect, I cant be asked to address such a nonsensical set of verses.

Your book has 40 odd random authors, it has so many versions and there are no original manuscripts which correlate to what you read today. How can I possibly take a book like that seriously?

If you had a disparate set of eye witness accounts that corroborated a particular set of events in a trial, you would weigh that over the testimony of one.

To have 49 odd witness statements to God’s unfolding self-revelation is to have a very valuable set of perspectives indeed.

 

[Haich]

If you had a disparate set of eye witness accounts that corroborated a particular set of events in a trial, you would weigh that over the testimony of one.

To have 49 odd witness statements to God’s unfolding self-revelation is to have a very valuable set of perspectives indeed.

Not in my eyes, who are these random 40 odd people?? Your bible has been tampered with more than a biscuit at a free sample stand!

Also, there is no corroboration in the bible- there are so many condictory statements and so many vague verses which have been translated in so many ways, it's no wonder that you have people who believe in the trinity, others who dont, others who accept paul, some who dont etc...

It's just a book where you make up your own mind and pick what you believe. What is the authoritative body which actually prints or releases well written commentaries on verses, in line with original or early manuscripts- oh...there aren't any.

So for Muslims, the line of transmission or narration is important. We need to know what was said and by who, documented when etc. Wirh you guys, you cant even account for every person who has contributed to the bible so how could you possibly claim that it is useful to have that many 'witnesses' if we dont even know who they are...

Not to mention that the bible is a new message, it completely goes against the monotheistic teachings of judaism and the islam. If I were to bet my afterlife, I'd go for islam or judaism and study these two Faiths as there more comparable and similar( I use that word lightly!) Ideas. I'd then choose the faith which had more evidence or appealed to my logical nature...

I mean come on, some of you guys believe Jesus created Adam!!!

 

[Serveto]

‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭7:8-9‬ ‭
But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

So, in other words, you unmarried guys only marry if you have an uncontrollable woody?

I'm waiting. Did I essentially read and understand correctly? Paul is recommending, not insisting, that the unmarried remain single, as he was, unless they cannot control their reproductive impulses? Celibacy is thought to be preferred above matrimony? It's not surprising to me that, within about 200 years of this teaching, Christian Egypt saw an influx of ascetics and monastics who, at least in theory if not fact, could control their desires by denying them altogether.

 

[Lisa]

I'm waiting. Did I essentially read and understand correctly? Paul is recommending, not insisting, that the unmarried remain single, as he was, unless they cannot control their reproductive impulses? Celibacy is thought to be preferred above matrimony? It's not surprising to me that, within about 200 years of this teaching, Christian Egypt saw an influx of ascetics and monastics who, at least in theory if not fact, could control their desires by denying them altogether.

And I said this...

He did but he takes their desires into consideration...
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭7:9‬ ‭
But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

 

[Lisa]

Is there really a point if it fails anyway?

It doesn’t always fail, anyway. Scripture tells not to be unequally yoked probably because it’s a hardship not to be on the same page with faith.

One of these days, maybe. As unnatural as that sounds and is.

It’s already happened but he was actually a she...shhh, some people don’t believe that.

Plus, I don't see how a deity could be worth worshipping who let's all this filth go on but still expect people to "push through" without making himself explicitly known.

He does tell us to come to Him..
What would you have God do with all the filth?
He is explicitly known, He made the heavens and the earth and all that is in it and people. Just because people don’t want to believe that doesn’t make it any less true.

 

[Lisa]

I understood, which is why I "liked" your post.

Ok, so why did you ask me the same question again?

in your religion, celibacy is considered a higher, more preferable, state to matrimony.

I don’t think celibacy is preferred but marriage and family is.

A related question: how much regard for the desire of women would you say that the 144,000 of Revelation will have? Is there something considered "defiling" to a man to join a woman in marriage? If so, what is it? Is it thought to be related to their (women's) supposed -and much publicized- "guilt" of Eden?

"These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb."​

(Rev 14:4)​

God is saving back those men to serve Him, He isn’t saving back all Israel so there will be men and women who can still be married.

I kind of look at it like looking for the red heifer, it is has to be spotless so do the men who are the first fruits of God...

 

[Serveto]

Ok, so why did you ask me the same question again?

Because I missed you. I also want to know if I should assume, in other words, that married Christians were unable to control their reproductive urges and thus didn't take Paul's recommendation that they remain, as he was, celibate.

I don’t think celibacy is preferred but marriage and family is.

I suggest that you re-read what you said, when you quoted Paul:

‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭7:8-9‬ ‭​

But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.​

If marriage and family are preferred over celibacy, what does the "it is good" mean and why is Paul recommending celibacy? As I understand, it is only if the unmarried and widows lack self-control that they should marry. In other words, marriage is a fall-back option, for those who cannot run out front and remain single.

God is saving back those men to serve Him, He isn’t saving back all Israel so there will be men and women who can still be married.

I kind of look at it like looking for the red heifer, it is has to be spotless so do the men who are the first fruits of God...

What does the author of Revelation mean when he specifically says that they are not "defiled" by women? What is it about a woman, or women, that would be defiling to the 144,000? Would women give them some grey instead of red hairs?

 

[Vytas]

Perhaps checking womans available in revelation might help...

 

[Serveto]

Perhaps checking womans available in revelation might help...

Perhaps if @Vytas elaborated, or further explained what he meant, it might help as well . The translators of the KJV say "defiled" with women. Does that mean the 144,000 will not have slept with the Whore of Babylon? If so, why say women, plural, instead of woman, singular? Is the Babylonian Whore thought to be a plurality of women? I don't know.

 

[elsbet]

Everything I said about Jesus is directly and explicitly said in the Bible...no interpretation needed. The same cannot be said about the Trinity doctrine..

It can-- I listed four quotes out of many that illustrate your lie of omission.

You cherry picked a version of the Bible that interprets John 1:18 to fit your doctrine. Literal translations say “who is the only begotten son”, not “who is God himself”. No one agrees (bible scholars, Greek language experts, etc) what “only begotten Son” means so it’s a bit spurious using it to defend a doctrine.

Cherry picking might apply if that was the only verse I used... but it wasn't. Obviously, there were four verses. Maybe you don't understand what cherry picking means, either.

The Berean literal translation--

​

'... No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known.' BEREAN LITERAL TRANSLATION​

Tomato, tomahto.

 

[Axl888]

You quoted Matthew. Who the hell is he to me? With all due respect, I cant be asked to address such a nonsensical set of verses.

Your book has 40 odd random authors, it has so many versions and there are no original manuscripts which correlate to what you read today. How can I possibly take a book like that seriously?

We believe the Quran is the literal word of God. If you read the verses on jesus, you'd see that God clears up the whole begotten nonsense as well as the trinity and his divinity, but also the dying for the sins. This is not from God and we do not accept this.

Well, people with religion other than yours could likewise say, who the hell is mohammad to me? And could likewise care less about the nonsensical set of verses in the koran as it is not really the literal word of God but of mohammad's.

 

[Haich]

Well, people with religion other than yours could likewise say, who the hell is mohammad to me? And could likewise care less about the nonsensical set of verses in the koran as it is not really the literal word of God but of mohammad's.

What's your point?

I don't remember anyone asking you about the Quran. If they did and that was your response, you are perfectly entitled to it.

My point was, I'm not going to take knowledge from a book written by so many random men, many which are unknown.

If you knew anything about Islam, you'd know that Mohammed was illiterate so there was no way he would have been able to just 'make up' the quran. Not to mention the amount of historical accuracies in it, which he wouldn't have possibly known about.

 

[Robin]

It doesn’t always fail, anyway. Scripture tells not to be unequally yoked probably because it’s a hardship not to be on the same page with faith.

But it doesn't always succeed either and that's what I'm trying to point out. You have an overly positive generalised view of marriage when a bulk of the divorces come from the churches between "equally yoked" couples. What up with that?

It’s already happened but he was actually a she...shhh, some people don’t believe that.

Yeah more evidence of how crazy the world is. You really think it's fair to bring a child into a time when that sort of thing will probably become even more common?

He does tell us to come to Him..
What would you have God do with all the filth?
He is explicitly known, He made the heavens and the earth and all that is in it and people. Just because people don’t want to believe that doesn’t make it any less true.

People have different religions and interpretation of Why we exist and how we came to exist. For many it formed part of their cultural traditions and upbringing. That's not fair to them. Would've been nice for him to include a little tag mentioning manufacturer. I don't know how buy I'm not an omniscient supernatural all-powerful deity. I'm sure he could've figured it out.

I'd also like to know your opinion on the whole "defiling" thing in Revelations . . . Why are you so supportive of a religion that clearly considers you lesser?

 

[Robin]

Perhaps checking womans available in revelation might help...

Or God seems to have no use or care for women outside of bearing children. Many of the early churchfathers seemed to agree and I'm sure @Lisa would too. Beautiful faith.

 

[JoChris]

So if I were successfully casting out demons in Jesus name you would accept me as a believer?

Which Jesus? The Jesus of the bible?
Not if you are still preaching the same message as you do online I wouldn't.

I have not rejected the New Testament, we simply disagree on the interpretation of it. I also believe in basing doctrine on the words of Jesus over Paul. Paul is hard to understand (as Peter warns) but easier to live than Jesus words. Jesus words are much easier to understand but much more difficult to live, hence the reason significantly more sermons are preached every Sunday from Paul’s word than Jesus’. Preachers can’t wow their congregants with the great revelation they received from God when preaching Jesus’ words because they are for the most part self explanatory or even in the case of parables we are given the words explanation from Jesus himself. Paul on the other hand is difficult to understand hence the reason so many different beliefs and contradicting doctrines within the Church.

You dismiss verses that contradict your position.
You ignore the apostles' acceptance of Paul.
You ignore Jesus' own words about Hell.
ETC ETC.

Everything I believe is based on the Bible. I have no other sources, I simply have a different emphasis of which words in the Bible I focus on. I don’t judge you or cast you aside as an unbeliever because you emphasis the words of Paul more than Jesus. I simply ask the same in return.

So just in case I distracted you from my original question, if I were successfully casting out demons in Jesus name would you reconsider your stance about me, as a fellow believer. (It doesn’t mean you have to agree with my doctrine or theology)

I repeat - which Jesus.
https://www.cdiwebsite.org/which-jesus-do-you-worship/

Todd's Jesus is not the bible Jesus.
Todd's Jesus did not preach about eternal Hell.
Todd's Jesus is not God made made Flesh.
Todd's Jesus did not appear to Paul in Acts 9.
Todd's Jesus did not stop Paul (an alleged false prophet) from having his words added to God's Word (Bible).
Todd's Jesus dismisses faith only in Him needed for salvation, works are required etc etc.

 

[Axl888]

What's your point?

I don't remember anyone asking you about the Quran. If they did and that was your response, you are perfectly entitled to it.

My point was, I'm not going to take knowledge from a book written by so many random men, many which are unknown.

If you knew anything about Islam, you'd know that Mohammed was illiterate so there was no way he would have been able to just 'make up' the quran. Not to mention the amount of historical accuracies in it, which he wouldn't have possibly known about.

My point is exactly the same as your point.

About historical accuracy of your koran (as you claim), can you please explain and justify the accuracy of this

4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

Historical facts seem to be going against your scriptures.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

My point is exactly the same as your point.

About historical accuracy of your koran (as you claim), can you please explain and justify the accuracy of this

4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

Historical facts seem to be going against your scriptures.

That’s a big one @Axl888 !

I watched “The Case for Christ” a while back and the scene with the doctor really brought the message home:-