No regard...for the desire of women

[Lisa]

What's wrong is that it seems you (and God apparently) think that's the only thing a woman is worth. That makes it seem like women are nothing more than an accessory.

No, I'm not jealous because I don't ascribe to the sexist religion you do where my place is being barefoot and pregnant for two thirds of my life. Women work too, whether they have families or not. Most people work nowadays. So why is it that a woman "goes against her nature" if she chooses to stay single and childless yet a man won't get shamed if he does the same thing? Why do men not need to get married and have children with the same urgency then? It's not about jealousy it's about stupid double standards. You're about a century too late for that kind of mindset.

I don’t think it does, it’s a pretty high calling to have children and to help your husband to succeed. When he succeeds so do you, I don’t see that as wrong it’s called being a family. And I don’t think that means a woman doesn’t have a life, You can’t have two heads.

Barefoot and pregnant? Lol who goes around barefoot and pregnant?

I know most people work and again I think that if women didn’t work and just men did we might be seeing a living wage for there to only have to have one adult working and not both.

Women aren’t shamed for wanting a career, I think they may feel guilty but not shamed.

Men do want to get married and have a family too. Why do think couples marry?

 

[Robin]

I don’t think it does, it’s a pretty high calling to have children and to help your husband to succeed. When he succeeds so do you, I don’t see that as wrong it’s called being a family. And I don’t think that means a woman doesn’t have a life, You can’t have two heads.

Barefoot and pregnant? Lol who goes around barefoot and pregnant?

I know most people work and again I think that if women didn’t work and just men did we might be seeing a living wage for there to only have to have one adult working and not both.

Women aren’t shamed for wanting a career, I think they may feel guilty but not shamed.

Men do want to get married and have a family too. Why do think couples marry?

So it's a high calling be a glorified babymaker? Why can't you succeed on your own? That would be sweet if that kind of dependence on their husbands didn't land many women in awful situations before. Many men have used that dependence to manipulate and even abuse their partners. Its not all moonlight and roses if we're being realistic - we live in a day and age where more marriages fail than succeed. Working to bring in a source of income does not automatically make someone the "head" of a household. And what if the man's head isn't screwed on straight to begin with?

It's an expression Lisa.

If women didn't work we'd be living back in the days when they were trapped in marriages because they'd have no independence. Not every woman wants to be married for the millionth time.

Why on earth would a woman feel guilty for having a career? And Yes, they are shamed by traditionalists like you. What is a man called when he chooses a career above family life? A bachelor. A woman? A spinster.

Lmao . . . There are many men who don't want to get married either. Couples marry for a variety of reasons.

 

[Orwell's mentor]

I don’t think it does, it’s a pretty high calling to have children and to help your husband to succeed. When he succeeds so do you, I don’t see that as wrong it’s called being a family. And I don’t think that means a woman doesn’t have a life, You can’t have two heads.

Barefoot and pregnant? Lol who goes around barefoot and pregnant?

I know most people work and again I think that if women didn’t work and just men did we might be seeing a living wage for there to only have to have one adult working and not both.

Women aren’t shamed for wanting a career, I think they may feel guilty but not shamed.

Men do want to get married and have a family too. Why do think couples marry?

There’s some, albeit, a tiny bit of truth to what you’re saying; however, as people are trying to tell you, it’s not for every woman, or man for that matter. It reads as though you’re unable to multitask, or have no strong interests in anything in particular and passing it off as a “high calling”.

I have friends who are married with kids and without, and both appear to be happy in their professional and personal lives. They don’t feel guilty because they enjoy what they do and feel as though they're making a good contribution to society. Some are the breadwinners in the household, and they and their husbands are fine with it to date. Certainly wives support their husbands to succeed, but it’s also a two way street as the marriage is a partnership, is it not?

I have NO idea where you live, but to live on a single salary where I am with a young family, with the minimum wage and the cost of living being what it is, they would be one paycheque away from being broke, and that’s if they’re fortunate enough.

 

[Lisa]

Marriage is often idolized

Sure, I thought I’d get married and live happily ever after and I wouldn’t doubt that people think that whether Christians or not.

Singleness shouldn't be the gift nobody wants even though it often is.

Genesis‬ ‭2:18‬ ‭
Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.​

‭‭
Even God thinks singleness isn’t good. And I would add women to that but we have our own problems from the fall..

Genesis‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭
To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.
​

‭‭However with Jesus..

Ephesians‬ ‭5:25, 28-29‬ ‭
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church.​

‭‭

Not every man nor woman for that matter is sent to you by God.

True, but that doesn’t mean that God can’t make your marriage work out..

Why else would 50% of all divorces also be occurring in the church? Among people who claim to be Christians? Could it be that Christians idolize marriage and family? Yes, yes they do. Is this Biblical? No, no it is not.

You do have a point to that, Christians are clueless when it comes to marriage like everyone else and probably give up to soon or go to “Christian counseling” where they all decide it’s for the best to divorce. Life isn’t easy and we do better in life when we ask God to be in our lives and belong us with it. Though life still is tough even then but God knows the best way to help us and when we trust Him things work out. That’s what most Christians don’t get, they do life like Abraham and Sarah thinking they need to figure out how to get the promised child instead of waiting on God and His timing.

 

[Lisa]

So it's a high calling be a glorified babymaker? Why can't you succeed on your own? That would be sweet if that kind of dependence on their husbands didn't land many women in awful situations before. Many men have used that dependence to manipulate and even abuse their partners. Its not all moonlight and roses if we're being realistic - we live in a day and age where more marriages fail than succeed. Working to bring in a source of income does not automatically make someone the "head" of a household. And what if the man's head isn't screwed on straight to begin with?

It's an expression Lisa.

If women didn't work we'd be living back in the days when they were trapped in marriages because they'd have no independence. Not every woman wants to be married for the millionth time.

Why on earth would a woman feel guilty for having a career? And Yes, they are shamed by traditionalists like you. What is a man called when he chooses a career above family life? A bachelor. A woman? A spinster.

Lmao . . . There are many men who don't want to get married either. Couples marry for a variety of reasons.

I think women with their own job and their own money is an excuse for a divorce down the road, they don’t need a man and they are totally wrong about that.

It’s a bad and derogatory expression

It’s not always good for women to have independence because they then think they don’t need a man which is wrong. Women and men need each other. And ya there can be and has been abuse because of it.

She would feel guilty because she would feel she should have made the other decision to have a family.

I think a man who just has a career no family is called lonely.

Sure people marry for many different reasons but most want children.

 

[Lisa]

There’s some, albeit, a tiny bit of truth to what you’re saying; however, as people are trying to tell you, it’s not for every woman, or man for that matter. It reads as though you’re unable to multitask, or have no strong interests in anything in particular and passing it off as a “high calling”.

I have friends who are married with kids and without, and both appear to be happy in their professional and personal lives. They don’t feel guilty because they enjoy what they do and feel as though they're making a good contribution to society. Some are the breadwinners in the household, and they and their husbands are fine with it to date. Certainly wives support their husbands to succeed, but it’s also a two way street as the marriage is a partnership, is it not?

I have NO idea where you live, but to live on a single salary where I am with a young family, with the minimum wage and the cost of living being what it is, they would be one paycheque away from being broke, and that’s if they’re fortunate enough.

There is a lot of truth to what I say, I get that truth from reading the Bible btw. And from experience.

It’s a high calling to raise the next generation people shouldn’t be so glib about it.

God made it that way that man is the head of the household so he’s the head. Ya it’s a tough thing to be married sometimes but there are great rewards to it as well.

Sure support should go both ways but it should be for the good of the family. Is it good for the family or are ya just being too selfish in your wants?

I was just saying that if women didn’t work and then men were the sole breadwinners...people would be able to live on a single income. I didn’t say it was happening now as women also work and I doubt you could get them all to quit to find out.

 

[Lisa]

The arrogance of anyone who thinks they can define the faith of 2 billion believers is comical.

God’s word helps us to know what a true believer believes so we can then judge on whether to follow along or not. You don’t want to be deceived.

 

[Robin]

I think women with their own job and their own money is an excuse for a divorce down the road, they don’t need a man and they are totally wrong about that.

It’s a bad and derogatory expression

It’s not always good for women to have independence because they then think they don’t need a man which is wrong. Women and men need each other. And ya there can be and has been abuse because of it.

She would feel guilty because she would feel she should have made the other decision to have a family.

I think a man who just has a career no family is called lonely.

Sure people marry for many different reasons but most want children.

That's your opinion but it's objectively wrong. What do you think is better? A woman who is not married but provides for herself, pays her own bills, has her own house and car and lives life to the fullest with loved ones despite not being a wife or mother? Or a woman trapped in a loveless marriage but unable to leave because she's financially dependant on her husband and has children to think about?

Women don't need men. Men don't need women. You may not realize this because you're clearly married but for those of that are young and single there are VERY slim pickings for future partners if you want something serious. So much so that it's not totally ridiculous to decide to remain single.

It may be derogatory but it was rightfully coined to describe the sort of role you propose women take.

Again, women do not need men and vice versa. Settling for someone you don't love out of fear of loneliness is a terrible mistake that can only lead to unhappiness. Unless you believe that everyone has a soulmate which is just as plausible as believing in Santa Clause.

No, she wouldn't. You're projecting your own beliefs onto this hypothetical situation. I've known women who had the whole marriage and kids thing and were miserable. And I've known career women who were well-adjusted and content with their lives.

Which is not worth it if people divorce and wreck the lives of those kids anyway.

 

[Lisa]

Did he not recommend that they remain unmarrired?

He did but he takes their desires into consideration...

‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭7:9‬ ‭
But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.​

 

[Lisa]

A woman who is not married but provides for herself, pays her own bills, has her own house and car and lives life to fullest with loved ones despite not being a wife or mother? Or a woman trapped in a lifeless marriage but unable to leave because she's financially dependant on her husband and has children to think about?

Lol! Now your just generalizing a hypothetical...

Women don't need men. Men don't need women.

We do need each other. God created us to.

You may not realize this because you're clearly married but for those of that are young and single there are VERY slim pickings for future partners if you want something serious. So much so that it's not totally ridiculous to decide to remain single.

People change all the time..responsibility is good for change.

It may be derogatory but it was rightfully coined to describe the sort of role you propose women take.

It’s derogatory and untrue. Women aren’t mindless baby makers but intelligent humans with a high calling to raise the next generation. I guarantee if people looked at it like that more things would be better in families.

Settling for someone you don't love out of fear of loneliness is a terrible mistake that can only lead to unhappiness. Unless you believe that everyone has a soulmate which is just as plausible as believing in Santa Clause.

Who says you need a soul mate and who says that after awhile you wouldn’t get one? You have so many thoughts on how marriage is awful but not any to where it is good, how then can you really objectively look at it?

Which is not worth it if people divorce and wreck the lives of those kids anyway.

Which is the reason for the breakdown of trust and gender wars. Which goes back to women raising their children themselves in marriage with a man thus giving the better chance of a successful life, which comes back to the women who do want their kids life, and their own lives to be successful. That’s a pretty big calling if you ask me, bigger than a career..and more rewarding.

 

[Robin]

Lol! Now your just generalizing a hypothetical...

I'm trying to prove a point here. You don't need to have a family of your own to be happy in life and being married doesn't always mean you're going to be happy. Believing the otherwise is a generalization.

We do need each other. God created us to.

The world has long moved passed that ideal.

People change all the time..responsibility is good for change.

It doesn't work like that. If anything people just becoming more and more selfish and materialistic.

It’s derogatory and untrue. Women aren’t mindless baby makers but intelligent humans with a high calling to raise the next generation. I guarantee if people looked at it like that more things would be better in families.

If that's a woman's only contribution to a society then it's true.

Who says you need a soul mate and who says that after awhile you wouldn’t get one? You have so many thoughts on how marriage is awful but not any to where it is good, how then can you really objectively look at it?

What I meant by that is the idea that there's someone out there for everyone. And my parents are an example of two people who have been together for well over two decades and are still in a loving marriage. But times have changed and even back then finding that sort of thing was rare. I'm not trash talking marriage and saying it never works - for some people it does. But I'm realistic in terms of modern dating and relationships.

Which is the reason for the breakdown of trust and gender wars. Which goes back to women raising their children themselves in marriage with a man thus giving the better chance of a successful life, which comes back to the women who do want their kids life, and their own lives to be successful. That’s a pretty big calling if you ask me, bigger than a career..and more rewarding.

You live in a fantasy world. Many women are single mothers and not by choice. Many women are terrible mothers who have royally screwed up their kids. Even in two-parent households there are horrible circumstances, its not always a recipe for success. And the gender war has way more to it than women being allowed to provide for themselves. Your idealistic picture of marriage and family just doesn't ring true for the majority of people nowadays. And you're free to think that but that's just your opinion.

 

[Orwell's mentor]

There is a lot of truth to what I say, I get that truth from reading the Bible btw. And from experience.

It’s YOUR truth, which is what Todd was trying to tell you. Not to mention that I have two friends who are working who are both church goers (only one now because one has recently had her mother put in a home and doesn’t have time for church anymore) and are very well versed in the bible so your theory isn’t as airtight as you like to think it is.

It’s a high calling to raise the next generation people shouldn’t be so glib about it.

People aren’t glib about it, Lisa. There are some that are raising them, but some that have decided not to. There’s this thing called a “choice” and women DO have it when it comes to getting married, having and raising kids.

God made it that way that man is the head of the household so he’s the head. Ya it’s a tough thing to be married sometimes but there are great rewards to it as well.

He’s the head of the household, figuratively, which means he’s doesn’t need to be financially, which is what I was trying to explain to you.

Sure support should go both ways but it should be for the good of the family. Is it good for the family or are ya just being too selfish in your wants?

What “wants” are you talking about, Lisa? Is being a teacher and educating the next generation selfish? Is working in the field of gerontology selfish? Is being a counselor selfish? Your myopia is remarkable! We can flip the coin and concede to the fact that you have raised children and probably influenced them with some of the short-sighted views you’ve posted on here, which could very well be viewed as selfish and even detrimental.

I was just saying that if women didn’t work and then men were the sole breadwinners...people would be able to live on a single income. I didn’t say it was happening now as women also work and I doubt you could get them all to quit to find out.

I understand you’re talking hypothetically, not to mention here are some women who have ambitions and want to make a difference in the world with their talents, knowledge and skills. I could never see myself sitting at home while my partner is the sole breadwinner, I’d get too antsy, and I know from my own experience and my own personal network, I'm not alone in this thinking.

 

[JoChris]

When first joining VC I was a little shocked at comments like this but now it gives me a good laugh.

Honesty is an unusual thing to receive these days, even online (thanks to social justice warriors).

49 Now John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us."
50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side."- LUKE

You just provided a example of a person quoting a verse who does not believe the bible. Comprehension of what is being taught is lacking.

To be casting out demons AND BEING SUCCESSFUL in doing so, a person has to have genuine faith in Jesus Himself.
Here is an example of people using the name of Jesus, but failing in casting out demons because they did not believe in Jesus.

Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

The demons knew the Jews didn't really believe in Jesus.
Readers know that about you as well. Please stop quoting bible verses cult-style.

 

[JoChris]

I think that is what I’ve been doing. If I stop calling myself a Christian and call myself a follower of the way would that stop you from attacking me?

No, what I really want is that you repent and become a REAL Christian, a believer of the bible. I really do.
I would give you the biggest hug if I met you in Heaven.

However, for the time being please refer yourself as a seeker, or something equivalent.

 

[JoChris]

True,but it was at this time that Paul was making it appear he followed “the way” to deflect the accusations the Jewish believers had against him. We know this was typical of Paul as he wrote about using deception to win people over in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

That is a major contributing factor to Christians on this forum proving you are not a Christian.

If you refuse to believe that Paul was an apostle of God, you reject a lot of books in the New Testament. The apostles who walked with Jesus for 3 years accepted him as equal to one of themselves, but somehow you have convinced yourself that you know better than them.

From Book of 2 Peter [not written by apostle Paul]
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

You need to follow this commandment from the very next verse for your own sake Todd.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

 

[justjess]

I think Lisa has me on ignore lmao...

 

[Dalit]

Sure, I thought I’d get married and live happily ever after and I wouldn’t doubt that people think that whether Christians or not.

Genesis‬ ‭2:18‬ ‭​

Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.​

‭‭
Even God thinks singleness isn’t good. And I would add women to that but we have our own problems from the fall..

Genesis‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭​

To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.​

​

‭‭However with Jesus..

Ephesians‬ ‭5:25, 28-29‬ ‭​

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,​

​

So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church.​

‭‭



True, but that doesn’t mean that God can’t make your marriage work out..


You do have a point to that, Christians are clueless when it comes to marriage like everyone else and probably give up to soon or go to “Christian counseling” where they all decide it’s for the best to divorce. Life isn’t easy and we do better in life when we ask God to be in our lives and belong us with it. Though life still is tough even then but God knows the best way to help us and when we trust Him things work out. That’s what most Christians don’t get, they do life like Abraham and Sarah thinking they need to figure out how to get the promised child instead of waiting on God and His timing.

You don't understand what I'm saying and I'm not sure it's from willful misunderstanding or just utter inability to consider a viewpoint not your own.

When I said not every man (nor woman) is sent to you by God, I was saying that Satan sends men and women to you or you go after them in your own flesh. A lot of marriages are fleshly unions. Someone hot and tempting came along, and that woman or man wanted a spouse (after all burning loins and such) and married. So your saying "Just try harder. Pray to God to make it work" doesn't apply here. It's from idolizing marriage in the first place, looking for someone to complete you. Only God can fill those voids. Most people, married and single, kinda want someone to complete them. That's too much pressure on a marriage and probably why many marriages fail. No one can live up to idolization and idealization. No one should have to.

I've seen this a lot in young Christian women and in myself, too. Thinking that the goal is to attract a good Christian man, marry, have babies, white picket fence, nice house, etc. It's like the elusive American dream which doesn't exist anymore. It's not practical nor healthy to live in a fantasy world.

If I don't reply again, don't take offense. You and I don't see eye to eye and probably never will.

 

[Dalit]

You don't understand what I'm saying and I'm not sure it's from willful misunderstanding or just utter inability to consider a viewpoint not your own.

When I said not every man (nor woman) is sent to you by God, I was saying that Satan sends men and women to you or you go after them in your own flesh. A lot of marriages are fleshly unions. Someone hot and tempting came along, and that woman or man wanted a spouse (after all burning loins and such) and married. So your saying "Just try harder. Pray to God to make it work" doesn't apply here. It's from idolizing marriage in the first place, looking for someone to complete you. Only God can fill those voids. Most people, married and single, kinda want someone to complete them. That's too much pressure on a marriage and probably why many marriages fail. No one can live up to idolization and idealization. No one should have to.

I've seen this a lot in young Christian women and in myself, too. Thinking that the goal is to attract a good Christian man, marry, have babies, white picket fence, nice house, etc. It's like the elusive American dream which doesn't exist anymore. It's not practical nor healthy to live in a fantasy world.

If I don't reply again, don't take offense. You and I don't see eye to eye and probably never will.

Okay, I do want to challenge this a little further.

Singleness is a gift from God, too.

See also June Hunt's Singleness and Sam Allberry's 7 Myths of Singleness.

Until you can be content single, you shouldn't be married. Trust me, I know.

A man came along recently and before I knew it, I was trying to change myself to fit his expectations. I was letting him manipulate me subtly. No. That showed me that I care more about what man thinks than God thinks and that is idolatry. I'm so glad God ended that relationship not 12 hours after I prayed and asked God to, because I knew deep down the relationship was not for me. I knew it even though I denied it because I'm getting older (40s) and I wanted a husband even if the man had huge ass red flags like almost no relationship with his family, obvious mother hatred, and really no friends and no Christian community. Seriously, wtf was I thinking? Plus I didn't value myself obviously. Like I placed myself on the sale rack when really I'm very expensive. A man like that cannot afford me. Talking spiritually and emotionally, not about finances. Finances are the least here.

God wants two whole, complete in Him people marrying. Those two whole, complete people can have jobs and can be partners and not dependents. Total dependency isn't healthy!

 

[Dalit]

Last point about how the church and the world idolizes marriage and/or coupling.

My Oneness Pentecostal brother and I have talked about this. He envies my singleness and sees it as a gift because it is. He and his wife both idolized each other and had to repent of that and turn to God to meet the needs they were trying to meet in each other. He describes their marriage as a partnership. Having his input on this and his encouragement to pursue God and enjoy this time in my life has been a good thing. There are married people who envy singleness. Not so they can go hookup or find a younger, better model to marry (well, some do, but not all), but because they can have more time for pure, undistracted devotion to the Lord (1 Corinthians 7:35). They can have more time for their hobbies, etc. If they want to serve in the church or community more regularly they can. It's not selfish. Let's not forget Jesus was single. So were Paul, John the Baptist, Elijah, Jeremiah, Anna the prophetess (single again, widowed), Lydia and Dorcas.

June Hunt, who is a Christian counselor, adheres to the Bible. Her books emphasize a Biblical worldview. She also has a radio show, Hope for the Heart, and from listening to it, her graceful spirit and kindness is apparent. I highly recommend her work.

A woman is not less if she doesn't marry and not more if she does. Each woman has her own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that (1 Corinthians 7:7).

 

[Lisa]

I think Lisa has me on ignore lmao...

I don’t.