No regard...for the desire of women

[Todd]

Todd is an apostate from biblical Christianity. Muslims now love him thanks to his denial of the Trinity. That is a major sign that Christians should approach him online as they would to a non-Christian.
Don't waste your time with him unless you have plenty of time AND are well-armed against his many other distortions/ omissions of essential doctrines.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

You know if I showed any signs of returning to my worldly ways and the sinful lifestyle I lived before I became a Christian, there might be some substance to your accusation here. The fact that since rejecting the Trinity doctrine and eternal torment the fruit of the Spirit has only increased in my life, I have peace thay your accusations are false and unfounded. I share the gospel with more people and have seen more lives transformed (people delivered from addictions and abuse, failing marriages saved, people who would never darken the doorstep of a traditional church coming to faith in Jesus, etc) then I ever did when I was a leader/minister within institutionalized religion.

 

[Lisa]

I have not left Christianity or walked away from my faith

Honestly, when you believed a different gospel, you walked away from the true faith and left Christianity.

 

[Todd]

Honestly, when you believed a different gospel, you walked away from the true faith and left Christianity.

I believe in the same gospel that brought me to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ in 1989. I do not believe in a different gospel. The same power that saved me, open my eyes to faith in Jesus Christ and put me on a path of repentance and sanctification is the same power working in my life today. Just because i have laid aside some doctrines I was lead to believe were true by other men, does not mean I believe a different gospel.

 

[Lisa]

Just because i have laid aside some doctrines

That’s called believing a different gospel

 

[Todd]

That’s called believing a different gospel

So are you saying since the day you became a Christian, every doctrine you thought was true then you still believe is true now? You have never once changed anything about your beliefs since the day you accepted Jesus?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe I remember you saying you used to believe in Pre-trib rapture but no longer do. So if layins aside certain doctrines means you believe in a different gospel then you Lisa, are just as guilty as me in believing a different gospel. Of course that is not what I believe, just taking your logic and reasoning to it's ultimate conclusion, to show the absurdity of it.

 

[Lisa]

So are you saying since the day you became a Christian, every doctrine you thought was true then you still believe is true now? You have never once changed anything about your beliefs since the day you accepted Jesus?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe I remember you saying you used to believe in Pre-trib rapture but no longer do. So if layins aside certain doctrines means you believe in a different gospel then you Lisa, are just as guilty as me in believing a different gospel. Of course that is not what I believe, just taking your logic and reasoning to it's ultimate conclusion, to show the absurdity of it.

I never in that time stopped believing that Jesus was God and that Paul was a disciple, to discredit Paul is a different gospel wouldn’t you say? Just like saying that Jesus isn’t God and then mocking that in my thread...that’s a different gospel as well.

To try to figure out the timing of the rapture isn’t gospel, but believing in the rapture is.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

There are salvation issues and non-salvation doctrines. For those who who don’t know a great deal about Christianity, it is worth asking the question:-

“What must I do to be saved?”

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/what-must-i-do-to-be-saved.5463/

 

[Haich]

You just can't stop retreating from Islam's treatment of women, using the Trinity doctrine as distraction tactic can you?

It doesn't work on people who have caught onto your strategy.

… Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God… S. 4:171

… They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God… S. 5:73

“Surely, disbelievers are those who said: ‘Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).’ But there is no llaah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilaah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them” [al-Maa’idah 5:73].

Narrated `Abdullah:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/87/17

A muslim who becomes a convert to biblical Christianity (Trinity is an essential doctrine) automatically becomes an apostate.

Haich, it is time you of all people stop using this tactic, please. It is unpleasant seeing people resorting to this strategy when you know they are capable of better.

Distraction? That was the topic of discussion at the time. You're always on the defensive, chill - it's a forum not Baghdad.

I have no problem discussing the status of women in islam. What would you like to know?

I don't understand your point, is it women or apostasy law that you want to discuss. Or the trinity? There are like 3 topics in the verses you mentioned...

 

[Haich]

Your friend told you the truth

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. - John 1:1-5

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

A bunch of vague verses don't tell me that jesus created Adam!

 

[Swiftturtle]

??

Dang it, am I remembering incorrectly and mixing you up with someone else? I thought you were the post where I asked if you’d left Christianity bc of a bad experience, like even I’ve encountered, and you said you didn’t have a bad one?

 

[Swiftturtle]

I believe in the same gospel that brought me to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ in 1989. I do not believe in a different gospel. The same power that saved me, open my eyes to faith in Jesus Christ and put me on a path of repentance and sanctification is the same power working in my life today. Just because i have laid aside some doctrines I was lead to believe were true by other men, does not mean I believe a different gospel.

I’m sorry, Todd. I remembered incorrectly according to what you stated above. We obviously have different opinions about the Trinity, but we’ve both stated our reasoning, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain why you don’t. I also appreciate you caring enough to have the conversation

 

[Swiftturtle]

A bunch of vague verses don't tell me that jesus created Adam!

Jesus, in his own words, says it was God in the verse below. Annnnnd I’m bowing out, y’all have fun

Mark 10:6
But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

 

[Todd]

I’m sorry, Todd. I remembered incorrectly according to what you stated above. We obviously have different opinions about the Trinity, but we’ve both stated our reasoning, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain why you don’t. I also appreciate you caring enough to have the conversation

No problem. When your new before you get to know everyone here, it's easy to confuse conversations with other people.

 

[Todd]

I never in that time stopped believing that Jesus was God and that Paul was a disciple, to discredit Paul is a different gospel wouldn’t you say? Just like saying that Jesus isn’t God and then mocking that in my thread...that’s a different gospel as well.

To try to figure out the timing of the rapture isn’t gospel, but believing in the rapture is.

The belief that Jesus is God is something I was told but the belief itself that he was God had little to do with my actual salvation. The belief and faith that he died on the Cross and was resurrected was the important part and I have never questioned or doubted that. I don't doubt that Jesus is the Messiah, the Chirst or Lord as there are scriptures that explicitly say he is. I began to doubt the Trinity doctrine because there are no scriptures that explicitly state the doctrine and their are plenty of scriptures, including the words of Jesus himself that state he was subordinate and not equal to God himself. In fact I was raised Lutheran and went through confirmation and learned all about the Trinity and said I believed in it, yet the gospel had no real impact on my life other than the religious ritual of going to Church every Sunday. When I was actually born again when I was in college, I just assumed the trinity doctrine I was taught in the Lutheran Church was still correct. So you see believing the Trinity doctirne really wasn't instrumental in my salvation. It was simply a carryover from my upbringing as un-saved Lutheran.

I never said Paul wasn't a disciple. I simply question whether he was actually called to be an Apostle, as his apostleship is never validated or confirmed by any of the original apostles that Jesus appointed. I don't doubt he was a believer, and that he was called to be a witness or evangelist. But the gift of evangelism is different than the gift of an apostle. Therefore when it comes to establishing doctrine I simply choose to base doctrine on the words of Jesus and the apsotles in Jerusalem, rather than the words of Paul. When a doctrinal conclusion from the words of Paul appears to contradict the words of Jesus I simply choose to defer to the doctrinal understanding that lines up with Jesus words not Paul's.

The words of Paul were instrumental in God opening my eyes to the doctrine of Apokatastasis, so to say I discredit him completely is not a correct accusation.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Was Matthias or Paul the replacement for Judas?

With Judas having betrayed Christ and then committing suicide, the 11 remaining disciples decided to replace Judas with a new 12th apostle (Acts 1:16-20). The requirements were that the man had to have been with them the entire time of Jesus’ ministry, and to have been a witness of the resurrection and ascension (Acts 1:21-22). The 11 disciples proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (possibly the same person as Barnabas), and Matthias (Acts 1:23). The 11 disciples then prayed for the Lord’s direction (Acts 1:24-25), and then cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias (Acts 1:26).

Matthias Chosen​

​

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”​

​

18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)​

​

20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:​

​

‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,​

And let no one live in it’;​

​

and,​

​

‘Let another take his office.’​

​

21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”​

​

23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.​

​

But, was this the Lord’s choice?

My question here is whether the Lord was instrumental in the choice of Matthias or whether it was the others, seeing a prophecy about Judas trying to “help God” by essentially drawing straws to pick somebody!

Jesus had told the apostles to wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8) and that casting lots is not how the disciples should have made the decision. Matthias is never again mentioned in the New Testament, while Paul obviously became very prominent in the early Christian church. So, was Paul, not Matthias, God’s choice to be Judas’ replacement as the 12th apostle?

 

[elsbet]

A bunch of vague verses don't tell me that jesus created Adam!

"All" means ALL. There's nothing vague about that.

 

[JoChris]

You know if I showed any signs of returning to my worldly ways and the sinful lifestyle I lived before I became a Christian, there might be some substance to your accusation here. The fact that since rejecting the Trinity doctrine and eternal torment the fruit of the Spirit has only increased in my life, I have peace thay your accusations are false and unfounded. I share the gospel with more people and have seen more lives transformed (people delivered from addictions and abuse, failing marriages saved, people who would never darken the doorstep of a traditional church coming to faith in Jesus, etc) then I ever did when I was a leader/minister within institutionalized religion.

You now deny essential doctrines therefore you are no longer a Christian.

You can't walk both sides of the fence. From memory you deny the Trinity, you believe in some type of Universalism, you don't believe Jesus is God, and you dismiss all writings from Paul, (the apostle the other original apostles accepted as one of them).
You have formed the cult of Todd.

Many Hindus, pagans, Sikhs, Muslims etc have a very moral lifestyle. Using your logic they are Christian as well.

If you repent of your unbelief in the bible (Hell is real and eternal), you repent of rejecting Jesus Christ as your Lord (therefore God) and Saviour, you repent of rejecting other essential doctrines (and every other thing that now disqualifies you), only then will Christians accept you as one of ourselves.

 

[JoChris]

I see where you’re coming from, and appreciate your advice. He mentioned earlier that he left Christianity. That’s why it’s up to him to watch that video or not, but I addressed it, and that’s about all I can/will do regarding that discussion.

I don’t agree with his views, but he and I don’t ‘have to’ agree, he has free will to think it’s ridiculous even when I think it’s obvious....But, I’ll answer him where I can. He may have turned from Christianity, but Jesus still loves him.

So, it might be considered silly on the surface (I get it ), and while I won’t do a big back and forth that just goes in a circle- esp bc he knows the scriptures, I’ll never write him off, or refuse to at least hear his opinion.

I agree with what you are saying, but be very careful. Todd wants other weaker Christians to convert to his system of unbelief in the bible. He needs to repent of these terrible sins but he has revealed for a long time that he has a very hardened heart to Christian doctrines he now hates.

You need to think of readers' needs way more than this apostate's feelings in cases like these, otherwise people unfamiliar with Christianity might mistakenly think Christians are attacking another fellow Christian. Todd is now not a Christian.

 

[Todd]

and you dismiss all writings from Paul, (the apostle the other original apostles accepted as one of them).

False accusation. I actually investigated and embraced Apokatastasis due to Paul’s writings. The other apostles accepted him as a beloved brother but none of them ever affirmed or recognized him as an Apostle.

If you repent of your unbelief in the bible

All my beliefs are based on the Bible

(Hell is real and eternal),

No it’s not. I have shown multiples times the Greek word translated forever does not actually mean forever.

you repent of rejecting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour,

Jesus is my Lord and Savior

you repent of rejecting other essential doctrines (and every other thing that now disqualifies you), only then will Christians accept you as one of ourselves.

I’m not really concerned whether you and Lisa accept me as a Christian. If you and her represent the norm in Christianity I don’t really want to be considered a Christian...but thankfully that isn’t the case. I have plenty of brothers and sisters in Christ who accept me.

 

[Todd]

Was Matthias or Paul the replacement for Judas?

With Judas having betrayed Christ and then committing suicide, the 11 remaining disciples decided to replace Judas with a new 12th apostle (Acts 1:16-20). The requirements were that the man had to have been with them the entire time of Jesus’ ministry, and to have been a witness of the resurrection and ascension (Acts 1:21-22). The 11 disciples proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (possibly the same person as Barnabas), and Matthias (Acts 1:23). The 11 disciples then prayed for the Lord’s direction (Acts 1:24-25), and then cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias (Acts 1:26).

Matthias Chosen​

​

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”​

​

18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)​

​

20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:​

​

‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,​

And let no one live in it’;​

​

and,​

​

‘Let another take his office.’​

​

21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”​

​

23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.​

​

But, was this the Lord’s choice?

My question here is whether the Lord was instrumental in the choice of Matthias or whether it was the others, seeing a prophecy about Judas trying to “help God” by essentially drawing straws to pick somebody!

Jesus had told the apostles to wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8) and that casting lots is not how the disciples should have made the decision. Matthias is never again mentioned in the New Testament, while Paul obviously became very prominent in the early Christian church. So, was Paul, not Matthias, God’s choice to be Judas’ replacement as the 12th apostle?

There is also no record of the apostles post Pentecost of repenting of the incorrect decision to appoint Matthias and affirming Paul as God’s choice.

It’s obvious that Peter, James and John while accepting Paul as a brother never saw eye to eye with Paul. Paul affirms in his writing that Peter, James and John and what they had to offer meant nothing to him. So if we take this argument to its fullest extent we could come to the conclusion that Paul transcended all of them and we should remove Peter and James writings from the Bible.

Of course I’m not actually saying that is what we should do although from 30 years of hearing Church sermons it kinda of seems like much of the Church has done exactly that.