No regard...for the desire of women

[Todd]

He was born, to be born is painful for the woman for sure. Can’t be much fun for a baby either, but I don’t remember.

He did have the same will as His Father, He was sacrificed for our sins.

You can pray to God for anything, but ultimately it is God’s will that will be done. And praying to God helps you become on the same page with God.

But if you are God (like you claim Jesus is) why would you need to pray to become on the same page with yourself. Is God schizophrenic?

 

[Haich]

Upon a moment’s consideration of these three truths, we can quickly understand why confusion would ensue. As humans, we are so confined to our limited understanding of the nature of things that it is impossible for us to imagine that three distinct persons could comprise one Being, especially if each of those persons has the full nature of that Being. In considering the Trinitarian nature of God, it becomes necessary to admit that full understandin

Sorry Red, sounds like a bit of cop out. Why would God present himself impossible to understand? Surely he would want us to understand him clearly so we could worship and follow Him exactly how he wants us to

If Jesus professed to be God, don't you find it strange that Matt, luke and mark didn't record this vital and necessary statement??

 

[Todd]

The basic teachings of the New Testament regarding the nature of God are three, according to Grudem[1]:

1. God is three persons.

2. Each person is fully God.

3. There is one God.

Upon a moment’s consideration of these three truths, we can quickly understand why confusion would ensue. As humans, we are so confined to our limited understanding of the nature of things that it is impossible for us to imagine that three distinct persons could comprise one Being, especially if each of those persons has the full nature of that Being. In considering the Trinitarian nature of God, it becomes necessary to admit that full understanding is beyond the limited capacity of man.

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/trinitarian-controversies.6098/

[1] Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2000 rev. p. 239.

But the Bible never explicitly teaches those 3 things. The Trinitarian concept is an invention of man to justify the deification of Jesus. The Bible never explicitily says Jesus is God and every verse that Trinitarians bring up to say Jesus is God can easily be interpreted to mean something else. Those first two points are are not actually taught or explained in the Bible. If Christians would just accept what the Bible plainly states about Jesus there would be no need for the convulted, confusing and impossible to fully understand doctrine of the Trinity.

So in effect you have Wayne Grudem saying that man invented a doctrine that his limited understanding is confined from imagining?

 

[Haich]

He was born, to be born is painful for the woman for sure. Can’t be much fun for a baby either, but I don’t remember.

He did have the same will as His Father, He was sacrificed for our sins.

You can pray to God for anything, but ultimately it is God’s will that will be done. And praying to God helps you become on the same page with God.

I don't think anyone remembers being a baby Lisa. You aren't alone there.

Noo he didn't! His will was to be saved, he prayed to be saved. Then The Father had a different will, for him to be sacrificed. How does that make sense if they are part of the same being?? Sounds like a schizophrenic God to me!

But there are so many questions you aren't answering or considering. Why does Jesus need to pray to himself, in order to get his will accepted, only for the father to reverse the will the son prayed for?

I'm sorry but that is not in the slightest, anything that a sound and true God would do! God wouldn't negotiate with himself and then turn his back on the will he had asked for on earth, because the other part of him decided otherwise!

 

[Haich]

There are numerous verses where jesus is telling you guys he can't do anything without the father and that you should call on the father...

I don't see why you guys cant just follow what jesus said and stop interpreting vague verses in an attempt to justify a doctrine you have reinvented to reassure yourselves that you're exempt from salvation. That's all I personally thing you gain from all this...guaranteed/semi-guarnteed salvation in exchange for professing the divinity of Jesus

Why couldn't God just forgive your sins? Why do you need a blood sacrifice for atonement?? God has the power to just forgive those you call upon him...

 

[Todd]

I don't think anyone remembers being a baby Lisa. You aren't alone there.

Noo he didn't! His will was to be saved, he prayed to be saved. Then The Father had a different will, for him to be sacrificed. How does that make sense if they are part of the same being?? Sounds like a schizophrenic God to me!

But there are so many questions you aren't answering or considering. Why does Jesus need to pray to himself, in order to get his will accepted, only for the father to reverse the will the son prayed for?

I'm sorry but that is not in the slightest, anything that a sound and true God would do! God wouldn't negotiate with himself and then turn his back on the will he had asked for on earth, because the other part of him decided otherwise!

The scene you are discussing here perfectly illustrates my perspective on Jesus as the prototype of the perfect man. He had his own will apart from the will of God and he was tempted to deny God's will and seek his own will. By pressing in and seeking God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength (I imagine it takes 100% of all 4 of those to stress the body enough to sweat blood) he was able to turn from his own selfish will and was able to accept, embrace and carry out the will of the Father. It makes Jesus a special and one of a kind human, worthy to be named Lord and Christ, worthy of our devotion and desire to imitate, but it doesn't make him God.

Deifying Jesus actually cheapens the magnitude and glory of what he did. It's much more impressive and worthy of respect, adoration and admiration, knowing he accomplished what he did as a human relying on God working through him, rather than believing he was actually God. It is something we should all strive for as Christ even said we would do greater works than he did.

In a methophorical sense Jesus was "God in the flesh", just as we as Christians are to be Christ's body in this world. The body of Christ is a metaphor. In the same manner the saying "Jesus is God in the flesh" is a metaphor. Every Christian should strive to be Christ in the flesh, which is why Paul said "it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives within me." That doesn't make Paul or anyone of us who walk according to the Spirit, literally Christ.

 

[Lisa]

I don't think anyone remembers being a baby Lisa. You aren't alone there.

Noo he didn't! His will was to be saved, he prayed to be saved. Then The Father had a different will, for him to be sacrificed. How does that make sense if they are part of the same being?? Sounds like a schizophrenic God to me!

But there are so many questions you aren't answering or considering. Why does Jesus need to pray to himself, in order to get his will accepted, only for the father to reverse the will the son prayed for?

I'm sorry but that is not in the slightest, anything that a sound and true God would do! God wouldn't negotiate with himself and then turn his back on the will he had asked for on earth, because the other part of him decided otherwise!

Actually, this is what Jesus said...
Luke‬ ‭22:41-42‬ ‭

And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”​

‭‭
The point being, God’s will be done. I think that He came to earth with a job He was willing to do, had the human nature that He was born with that was always trying to lead Him into sin, just like us. He doesn’t want to do it because of His sin nature. That is what I think anyway..lets not stamp it in stone.

I think it was also to show us humans, that yes we might not want to do what God brings us to, but it’s His will not ours that should be done, its a good teaching also to pray to God for His will. Jesus was also a teacher, teaching His flock.

 

[Lisa]

There are numerous verses where jesus is telling you guys he can't do anything without the father and that you should call on the father...

I don't see why you guys cant just follow what jesus said and stop interpreting vague verses in an attempt to justify a doctrine you have reinvented to reassure yourselves that you're exempt from salvation. That's all I personally thing you gain from all this...guaranteed/semi-guarnteed salvation in exchange for professing the divinity of Jesus

Why couldn't God just forgive your sins? Why do you need a blood sacrifice for atonement?? God has the power to just forgive those you call upon him...

God has always had a blood sacrifice for sins. Jesus is called the lamb of God for a reason, He is the once for all sacrifice for sins. The animal sacrifices were to call attention that sin was bad to God and blood was required for forgiveness of it. Jesus, however is God’s once for all sacrifice for sins.

Hebrews‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
‭‭​

John 3:16 does say that to believe in Jesus means that you won’t perish but have everlasting life..its not a vague verse, in fact its a main verse in believing in Jesus for salvation.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

But the Bible never explicitly teaches those 3 things. The Trinitarian concept is an invention of man to justify the deification of Jesus. The Bible never explicitily says Jesus is God and every verse that Trinitarians bring up to say Jesus is God can easily be interpreted to mean something else. Those first two points are are not actually taught or explained in the Bible. If Christians would just accept what the Bible plainly states about Jesus there would be no need for the convulted, confusing and impossible to fully understand doctrine of the Trinity.

So in effect you have Wayne Grudem saying that man invented a doctrine that his limited understanding is confined from imagining?

It might be interesting to continue this discussion on the other thread, and explore the various non-trinitarian alternatives that people have proposed over the years...

 

[Lisa]

But if you are God (like you claim Jesus is) why would you need to pray to become on the same page with yourself. Is God schizophrenic?

I’m not God nor claim to be Him. I just claim to be saved by Him.

 

[Haich]

Actually, this is what Jesus said...
Luke‬ ‭22:41-42‬ ‭

And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”​

‭‭
The point being, God’s will be done. I think that He came to earth with a job He was willing to do, had the human nature that He was born with that was always trying to lead Him into sin, just like us. He doesn’t want to do it because of His sin nature. That is what I think anyway..lets not stamp it in stone.

I think it was also to show us humans, that yes we might not want to do what God brings us to, but it’s His will not ours that should be done, its a good teaching also to pray to God for His will. Jesus was also a teacher, teaching His flock.

But why do you guys just give opinions based on what you think? This is why there are like 5 different versions of christianity on VC alone. Don't you have scholars or people who study the book in more depth that can give an authority on the best or most logical explanation of a verse?

Also your response seems to be that jesus had a different will to the father because of his human nature. But he was also still half God according to you so his will should've been in agreement with The Father.

On the other hand, if you'd like to argue that jesus was fully human at that time and relied on The Father to give him his powers, then that works against you as well because it proves there is a hierarchical relationship between the 3 parts of God. This take tells us The Father is the highest and most powerful, so wouldn't that basic deduction negate the tangibility of the trinity?

You can't infer a teaching which isn't clear in the verse. Jesus's will was different to the father's. Jesus's will was never going to happen so if you want to apply this 'lesson' it actually works against you as it tells you that ONLY The father's will manifests. So your idea that Jesus and God work together and are one, isn't supported at all...

Also...where does the holy spirit come into all this?

 

[Haich]

I’m not God nor claim to be Him. I just claim to be saved by Him.

How can you be saved by something you don't understand?

 

[Swiftturtle]

This is another example of why I don't believe the Trinity doctrine at all. What you are saying is completely at odds with the actual theological doctrine of the Trinity that says they are co-equal and that there is no order. The fact that you can take 10 Trinitatians and ask them to explain the Trinity and get 10 totally different answers is only confirmation that it's not actually that important to understanding the gospel of the Bible. You can claim that it has been revealed that Jesus is God, but that relies on spurious interpretation of a limited number of bible verses and ignoring the numerous verses that contradict the idea that Jesus is God. So to Muslims, Jews and non-trinitarian Christians, it has not been revealed that Jesus is God.

I've posted quotes form multiple Trinitarian biblical scholars who admit that the Trinity doctrine is not explicitily taught in the Bible. The Trinity is man made construct. If believeing Jesus is God and believing the Trinitarian doctrine is so important to understand salvation, it would be explicitily taught in the Bible. I have no problem with Christians saying they believe it to be true, even though the biblical evidence for it is sketchy at best and requires some very creative interpretation to arrive at. The issue I have is making definitive judgemental statements about the significant number of Christians who don't believe in the Trinity doctrine and believe Jesus is the Messiah, the son of God, the one sent by God, but not God himself.

I can understand why you have reservations- I’ve heard it broken down by scholars, and that helped me on the granular level, personally. I looked, knowing Nabeel did his thesis on this, and wouldn’t you know it, there’s a 20 min video addressing this issue, so I hope this helps!

 

[Haich]

God has always had a blood sacrifice for sins. Jesus is called the lamb of God for a reason, He is the once for all sacrifice for sins. The animal sacrifices were to call attention that sin was bad to God and blood was required for forgiveness of it. Jesus, however is God’s once for all sacrifice for sins.

Hebrews‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭​

And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.​

‭‭​

John 3:16 does say that to believe in Jesus means that you won’t perish but have everlasting life..its not a vague verse, in fact its a main verse in believing in Jesus for salvation.

But people still sin so...wasn't his death in vain?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Sorry Red, sounds like a bit of cop out. Why would God present himself impossible to understand? Surely he would want us to understand him clearly so we could worship and follow Him exactly how he wants us to

If Jesus professed to be God, don't you find it strange that Matt, luke and mark didn't record this vital and necessary statement??

I believe God wants us to understand him, and certainly we can understand aspects of His nature. To expect to be able to fully grasp the nature of an infinite God does strike me as spiritually somewhat naive.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

How can you be saved by something you don't understand?

Ask a child saved by a lifeboat!

 

[Haich]

I believe God wants us to understand him, and certainly we can understand aspects of His nature. To expect to be able to fully grasp the nature of an infinite God does strike me as spiritually somewhat naive.

But your quote stated otherwise, it implied we can never fully understand the trinity and that's an issue. God isn't some rubix cube...we cant spend a life time figuring out what he meant...if your take on jesus is true, it would've been documented and written in the bible clearly so that we now would see that people believed in the trinity from day 1

I agree that there are aspects of God which are beyond comprehension.

 

[Haich]

Ask a child saved by a lifeboat!

But a child would know what a lifeboat is! (Or at least recognise a boat and quickly understand they're being saved!)

 

[Lisa]

But people still sin so...wasn't his death in vain?

His death wasn’t in vain, He died for us while we were still sinners.

Jesus didn’t take away all sin from us when we believe in Him, but we still live with sin, seeking to master it. But, we can’t do that on our own, only with God and truth is we will fail sometimes in our struggle with sin.

How can you be saved by something you don't understand?

It’s not me who doesn’t understand it.

But why do you guys just give opinions based on what you think? This is why there are like 5 different versions of christianity on VC alone. Don't you have scholars or people who study the book in more depth that can give an authority on the best or most logical explanation of a verse?

I only gave that one opinion and said it was my opinion, not the gospel, so you wouldn’t think that was Biblical.

There is a problem in Christianity and its been here since the beginning of it which is that false teachers and false prophets have come into the church, so one has to be careful to have the right teaching which is why there are many different gospels out there. You can’t believe what everyone says, you can only go by the Bible which is the truth.

Also your response seems to be that jesus had a different will to the father because of his human nature. But he was also still half God according to you so his will should've been in agreement with The Father.

He was in agreement, He told the Father, you will not mine be done.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

But a child would know what a lifeboat is! (Or at least recognise a boat and quickly understand they're being saved!)

Lol! That’s it - you have summoned the OptiVita advert...