Red Heifer Birth Paves Way For Renewed Temple Service

[Red Sky at Morning]

We (replacement theologists) have been told time and again that the scriptures we use to buttress our position are…..well, that we are just reading the scriptures wrong. So its only fair that those who are right clear up the issue. In the Christian Zionism thread, Red said


Clearly then, a good scriptural grounding is important. While the question was directed at Red, you could help me and answer it.

Verses? I’ll use the very verse that Red quoted. I believe Zechariah was talking about spiritual descendants of Abraham (who is the father of all believers). If iam wrong, then just answer the question I posed to him. Will Netanyahu, the Rothschilds, Ron Dermer and Menachem Begin all be saved?

On the “synagogue of Satan” Jews, perhaps like the Rothschilds, they may be the first in line to take the Mark of the Beast and will be on the highway to Hell, while others of their nation will have taken the advice of Matthew 24 having witnessed the “abomination of desolation set up in the holy place”...

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.​

It is this latter group who will not bow to the false messiah that God will deal with. While those who take the mark will clearly seal their own fate, the other group will be those who have resisted the lies and are ready to start listening to their God once more.

 

[Lisa]

We (replacement theologists) have been told time and again that the scriptures we use to buttress our position are…..well, that we are just reading the scriptures wrong. So its only fair that those who are right clear up the issue.

I’d like to know the scripture(s) you think buttress your position though.

I have to say..I wasn’t following that thread so I’m not sure what’s been said between the both of you.

What do you think of Paul’s assertion that God is not done with the Jews yet? So how could we replace them?
Romans‬ ‭11:1-2‬ ‭
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
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[Todd]

I’d like to know the scripture(s) you think buttress your position though.

I have to say..I wasn’t following that thread so I’m not sure what’s been said between the both of you.

What do you think of Paul’s assertion that God is not done with the Jews yet? So how could we replace them?
Romans‬ ‭11:1-2‬ ‭
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
‭‭

Please read the remaining portion of the chapter. Paul continues to talk about the remnant of Israel; "chosen by grace". Clearly the remnant became part of the new testament church of grace. So this verse does not refute replacment theology. In fact it refutes dual covenant theology as the chapter continues to explain we have all been grafted into a single vine.

Of course UR is the easiest way to reconcile (pun intended) the whole phrase "All Israel will be saved". But I suspect you will prefer to espouse some more complicated and abstract theory on what this phrase actually means.

@Karlysymon, I hope I'm not stealing some of your thunder. I am actually enjoying your subtle approach to this discussion

 

[Lisa]

Please read the remaining portion of the chapter. Paul continues to talk about the remnant of Israel; "chosen by grace". Clearly the remnant became part of the new testament church of grace. So this verse does not refute replacment theology. In fact it refutes dual covenant theology as the chapter continues to explain we have all been grafted into a single vine.

Of course UR is the easiest way to reconcile (pun intended) the whole phrase "All Israel will be saved". But I suspect you will prefer to espouse some more complicated and abstract theory on what this phrase actually means.

@Karlysymon, I hope I'm not stealing some of your thunder. I am actually enjoying your subtle approach to this discussion

I have read the whole chapter many times, thanks.


I know it confuses you.

 

[Todd]

I have read the whole chapter many times, thanks.


I know it confuses you.

I am not at all confused by it. Your particular interpretation of it is confusing though. Since God is not the author of confusion I have no choice but to reject your interpretation.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

“All Israel will be saved”

Paul assures us in Romans 11:26 that, “All Israel will be saved”. That’s quite a statement! What does he mean, exactly? Who is included in “All Israel”? There are four main views regarding the identity of “all Israel” in Romans 11:26. We favor the latter view, and will explain why, by looking carefully at the meaning and context of the words that Paul uses in Romans 11.

The four views are that “all Israel” means:

The Jews – Every Jew ever lived is “all Israel” and therefore automatically saved.

Although rarely believed in today, according to this view, any Jew ever lived (past, present and future) who considered himself as a Jew according to the Law of Moses and the traditions of the Rabbis, is saved. This view is not only far-fetched, but also stands in complete contradiction to what Jesus thought about God and Himself.

The church – Jews and Gentiles deemed to have been saved throughout all generations.

Otherwise known as “replacement theology”, this view equates “all Israel” to the church, as “the Israel of God”. However, this view becomes hard to maintain in the light of Romans 11:28, if the use of the pronoun “they” is followed through to its logical conclusion.

The chosen remnant – all Jewish believers within ethnic Israel that have been saved throughout history.

This notion indicates that the hardened stance of the Israelite nation is partial and thus a remnant portion among the Jews will continue to face God’s salvation until the end of the modern times.

Ethnic Israel – the people of Israel will receive salvation at the end of days.

This interpretation asserts that the existing hardening of Israel (albeit partial) will continue till the culmination of this age, at which point, they will turn to Christ at that time and accept His salvation in accordance God’s faithfulness to fulfill his covenantal promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Despite the majority of Israel currently still being in rebellion, God will not forget His people, and will pour His Spirit on Israel at a specific point in time, in agreement with the covenantal promises. At that specific time, the people of Israel living in those days will accept the Messiah.

Source

 

[Todd]

“All Israel will be saved”

Paul assures us in Romans 11:26 that, “All Israel will be saved”. That’s quite a statement! What does he mean, exactly? Who is included in “All Israel”? There are four main views regarding the identity of “all Israel” in Romans 11:26. We favor the latter view, and will explain why, by looking carefully at the meaning and context of the words that Paul uses in Romans 11.

The four views are that “all Israel” means:

The Jews – Every Jew ever lived is “all Israel” and therefore automatically saved.

Although rarely believed in today, according to this view, any Jew ever lived (past, present and future) who considered himself as a Jew according to the Law of Moses and the traditions of the Rabbis, is saved. This view is not only far-fetched, but also stands in complete contradiction to what Jesus thought about God and Himself.

The church – Jews and Gentiles deemed to have been saved throughout all generations.

Otherwise known as “replacement theology”, this view equates “all Israel” to the church, as “the Israel of God”. However, this view becomes hard to maintain in the light of Romans 11:28, if the use of the pronoun “they” is followed through to its logical conclusion.

The chosen remnant – all Jewish believers within ethnic Israel that have been saved throughout history.

This notion indicates that the hardened stance of the Israelite nation is partial and thus a remnant portion among the Jews will continue to face God’s salvation until the end of the modern times.

Ethnic Israel – the people of Israel will receive salvation at the end of days.

This interpretation asserts that the existing hardening of Israel (albeit partial) will continue till the culmination of this age, at which point, they will turn to Christ at that time and accept His salvation in accordance God’s faithfulness to fulfill his covenantal promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Despite the majority of Israel currently still being in rebellion, God will not forget His people, and will pour His Spirit on Israel at a specific point in time, in agreement with the covenantal promises. At that specific time, the people of Israel living in those days will accept the Messiah.

Source

I believe this list is missing the simplest explanation. If we go by Occam’s razor then the last option here is the least likely. Just saying...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I believe this list is missing the simplest explanation. If we go by Occam’s razor then the last option here is the least likely. Just saying...

Occam’s razor also works against the idea of the Virgin Birth ;-)

In fact, I’m sure you know that Hume’s objection to miracles is based on a mm overly heavy application of that metaphorical razor...

 

[Lisa]

When you talk about Occam’s razor all I can think of is..

 

[Karlysymon]

I’d like to know the scripture(s) you think buttress your position though.

I will go with Parable of the Tenants (Matthew 21:43)

What do you think of Paul’s assertion that God is not done with the Jews yet? So how could we replace them?
Romans‬ ‭11:1-2‬ ‭

I think Paul’s assertion in the first verses of Chapter 11 was to address the pitfall that the gentiles might fall into. The pitfall being how to approach the loss of Favor; when the flock summarily dismissed the Shepherd of His duties with the payment of 33 pieces of silver, the staff of Favor was broken. (Zechariah 11:11-13)

Then I took my staff called Favour and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the oppressed of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the Lord.
12 I told them, ‘If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.’ So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the Lord said to me, ‘Throw it to the potter’– the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord.

Just because the Israelites lost favor as a nation didn’t mean that God rejected them (salvation-wise). Every soul is precious in His sight. Through repentance both Jew and Gentile would find acceptance before God. So the Gentiles didn’t have to give up on spreading the gospel to the Jews. The problem though is, when we are told that Replacement Theology is wrong, we are in effect told to deny that Israel lost the Favor and that we should cheer them on to regain it. Case in point:

David Ben-Gurion, the “father of the nation”, was a firm believer in the ‘mission’ [of Greater Israel], declaring: “I believe in our moral and intellectual superiority; and in our capacity to serve as a model for the redemption of the human race”. At the 2003 ‘Jerusalem Summit’, whose participants comprised three acting Israeli ministers (and included Netanyahu, and Richard Perle from the USG), the group solemnly professed: “We believe that one of the objectives of Israel’s divinely-inspired rebirth, is to make it the center of the new unity of the nations, which will lead to an era of peace and prosperity, as foretold by the Prophets”.

Ethnic Israel – the people of Israel will receive salvation at the end of days.

This interpretation asserts that the existing hardening of Israel (albeit partial) will continue till the culmination of this age, at which point, they will turn to Christ at that time and accept His salvation in accordance God’s faithfulness to fulfill his covenantal promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Despite the majority of Israel currently still being in rebellion, God will not forget His people, and will pour His Spirit on Israel at a specific point in time, in agreement with the covenantal promises. At that specific time, the people of Israel living in those days will accept the Messiah.

I have read the whole chapter many times, thanks.

@Todd is right. I went back and re-read the section under “All Israel will be saved” in Chapter 11 and the answer was right there.
Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved.
But if you insist that we are still reading it wrong, chapter 24 of Isaiah describes some of the conditions at the very end of the age. Verse 6

The earth is defiled by its people;
they have disobeyed the laws,
violated the statutes
and broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore a curse consumes the earth;
its people must bear their guilt.
Therefore earth’s inhabitants are burned up,
and very few are left.

Since there’s going to be very few of earth’s inhabitants left (one could argue that the 1st commandment of the Georgia Guidestones will have been carried out), how many of these “very few” will make up Israel in order to satisfactorily say that “all Israel is saved”. What if there’s only 10 ethnic Jews left among those still living? Even better, I could use the example of Joshua and Caleb as the only two, of the multitude that left Egypt, to make it to the Promised Land. If there’s only 2 or 10 ethnic Jews left among the living, would they perfectly be “All Israel” that is saved?

 

[Lisa]

@Karlysymon

Matthew‬ ‭21:43‬ ‭
Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.​

‭‭
Yes, but...

Romans‬ ‭11:11, 25‬ ‭
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.​

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[Karlysymon]

until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Okay. So, how do you read that part of the verse? What are Gentiles coming into?

 

[Todd]

Occam’s razor also works against the idea of the Virgin Birth ;-)

Agreed assuming we are looking at the Bible from a skeptics perspective. If looking from a believers perspective then Occam’s razor actually supports the virgin birth as the simplest explanation is that what the angels said really happened.

On the issue of the salvation of all Jews, from a believers perspective Occam’s razor would suggest that when the Bible says “all Israel” it really means all with no exceptions, since the verse does not list any exceptions or qualifiers.

Of course if we took the simplest explanation of every scripture in the Bible that contains the word “All” we would come to the conclusion that UR is indeed a valid Biblical doctrine.

In case you missed it UR is the fifth option I believe was left of your list and for me it is truly the simplest explanation for many debatable issues within Christianity.

In fact, I’m sure you know that Hume’s objection to miracles is based on a mm overly heavy application of that metaphorical razor...

Like In my post above, I’m just saying....not intending it to be proof of anything.

 

[Lisa]

The problem though is, when we are told that Replacement Theology is wrong, we are in effect told to deny that Israel lost the Favor and that we should cheer them on to regain it.

Why is that a problem, God is wanting them to regain it...

Romans‬ ‭11:30-32‬ ‭
For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.​

‭‭God has another plan.

But if you insist that we are still reading it wrong, chapter 24 of Isaiah describes some of the conditions at the very end of the age. Verse 6

The earth is defiled by its people;
they have disobeyed the laws,
violated the statutes
and broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore a curse consumes the earth;
its people must bear their guilt.
Therefore earth’s inhabitants are burned up,
and very few are left.

Since there’s going to be very few of earth’s inhabitants left (one could argue that the 1st commandment of the Georgia Guidestones will have been carried out), how many of these “very few” will make up Israel in order to satisfactorily say that “all Israel is saved”. What if there’s only 10 ethnic Jews left among those still living? Even better, I could use the example of Joshua and Caleb as the only two, of the multitude that left Egypt, to make it to the Promised Land. If there’s only 2 or 10 ethnic Jews left among the living, would they perfectly be “All Israel” that is saved?

Zechariah‬ ‭8:6-8, 11-15, 23‬ ‭​

Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘If it is too difficult in the sight of the remnant of this people in those days, will it also be too difficult in My sight?’ declares the LORD of hosts. Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Behold, I am going to save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west; and I will bring them back and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.’

But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as in the former days,’ declares the LORD of hosts. ‘For there will be peace for the seed: the vine will yield its fruit, the land will yield its produce and the heavens will give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to inherit all these things. It will come about that just as you were a curse among the nations, O house of Judah and house of Israel, so I will save you that you may become a blessing. Do not fear; let your hands be strong.’ “For thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Just as I purposed to do harm to you when your fathers provoked Me to wrath,’ says the LORD of hosts, ‘and I have not relented, so I have again purposed in these days to do good to Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. Do not fear!

Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”
‭‭I believe replacement theology is wrong also because...God doesn’t lie.

Genesis‬ ‭17:7‬ ‭
I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
‭‭​

 

[Lisa]

Okay. So, how do you read that part of the verse? What are Gentiles coming into?

Romans‬ ‭11:32‬ ‭
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.​

‭‭
God has a plan, and that plan included the Jews rejecting their savior. He had it all along...before Jesus even went to the cross, Jesus knew the full plan.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whomsoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. ​

 

[Lisa]

And @Karlysymon if it happened to them..it could happen to you!

Romans‬ ‭11:20-22‬ ‭
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
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[Red Sky at Morning]

And @Karlysymon if it happened to them..it could happen to you!

Romans‬ ‭11:20-22‬ ‭​

Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.​

‭‭​

An interesting use of “cut off” here - cut off from future blessing or cut off from salvation and Gods plan permanently?

If God would not forever discard the Jews for their unbelief and rebellion, what makes you think he gives up on gentile Christians if they should ever once “fall away”?

On the other hand, if God treats Jews and Gentiles with an even hand, surely replacement theology would be more consistent with your other beliefs on salvation?

 

[Lisa]

An interesting use of “cut off” here - cut off from future blessing or cut off from salvation and Gods plan permanently?

If God would not forever discard the Jews for their unbelief and rebellion, what makes you think he gives up on gentile Christians if they should ever once “fall away”?

On the other hand, if God treats Jews and Gentiles with an even hand, surely replacement theology would be more consistent with your other beliefs on salvation?

I follow what the Bible says..it may not always be consistent with what we want...God is pretty clear on what happens..if you have the eyes to see.

Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
‭‭​

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I follow what the Bible says..it may not always be consistent with what we want...God is pretty clear on what happens..if you have the eyes to see.

Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭​

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​

‭‭​

And you are adamant that the Jewish context and the events of Kadesh Barnea are inadmissible as possible doctrinally consistent interpretations of this passage? What did you make of Andy Woods exegesis here?

 

[Lisa]

And you are adamant that the Jewish context and the events of Kadesh Barnea are inadmissible as possible doctrinally consistent interpretations of this passage? What did you make of Andy Woods exegesis here?

Why can’t the passage mean what it says it means?