Does God Love Unconditionally?

rainerann

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In the Greek there were different words to describe different kinds of love. The way love was distinguished was by degree for the sake of making a comparison. Agape would be like the 100 degrees Celsius kind of love. Phileo would be like room temperature kind of love.

So this passage is not talking about love in English and unconditional love is a concept that does not include discussion of what the words unconditional and love mean separately. When they are combined together, they mean something specific that only applies when they are combined that has been described throughout this thread.

It is the English way of talking about love in different degrees to create a concept with different words that is understood as a cultural definition basically rather than a literal definition. Other languages distinguished this difference by assigning a different word to the different experiences of love like they did in Greek which is why we use the definition from the Greek to understand this passage better. This is more than likely where the concept of unconditional loves comes from in English since English is largely influenced by Christianity. It is from the understanding of the Greek word that is used in passages like the one you are quoting.
 
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rainerann

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I think I should also add that the reason we don’t translate the passage from 1 Corinthians to say “unconditional love” is because agape is still more complex. Agape is probably insufficient as well because we are talking about something spiritual.

It is almost easier to understand spiritual things in the form of a picture and like they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. That is why we translate this passage with love because it does narrow something down a bit to choose a permanent compound, and agape describes things in a sort of limitless way.

So we could say infinite love, transcendent love, unconditional love and it would all combine together to mean agape love.

this is where we have culturally made a concept for translating this package, which we call simply unconditional love. When we say unconditional love, it is culturally understood as more of a package than a literal definition for love and unconditional separately.

However, it is also a sort of slang at the same time since we can’t permanently assign this concept when translating the text.
 
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Lisa

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I think when we try to define it further than we make it something it isn’t.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I think I should also add that the reason we don’t translate the passage from 1 Corinthians to say “unconditional love” is because agape is still more complex. Agape is probably insufficient as well because we are talking about something spiritual.

It is almost easier to understand spiritual things in the form of a picture and like they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. That is why we translate this passage with love because it does narrow something down a pick to choose a permanent compound, and agape describes things in a sort of limitless way.

So we could say infinite love, transcendent love, unconditional love and it would all combine together to mean agape love.

this is where we have culturally made a concept for translating this package, which we call simply unconditional love. When we say unconditional love, it is culturally understood as more of a package than a literal definition for love and unconditional separately.

However, it is also a sort of slang at the same time since we can’t permanently assign this concept when translating the text.
One of my favourite chapters! 1 Corinthians 3

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails.
 

rainerann

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I think when we try to define it further than we make it something it isn’t.
The point is that unconditional is not used according to the literal definition of the word.

So using the literal definition to argue that there is a contradiction in the concept of unconditional love when the meaning is expressed demonstrates that you are missing the cultural definition that has been explained to you numerous times. Does this make sense?

Also, if you think defining it further makes it something that it’s not, what do you think it means when Jesus says.

“This is My command: Love one another as I have loved you.” John 15:12.

He doesn’t say love one another as you would love a child or your spouse. He says to love one another as he has loved us suggesting that the way He loves us has its own distinction. What do you think about this?
 

Lisa

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The point is that unconditional is not used according to the literal definition of the word.

So using the literal definition to argue that there is a contradiction in the concept of unconditional love when the meaning is expressed demonstrates that you are missing the cultural definition that has been explained to you numerous times. Does this make sense?
Yes it makes sense in that maybe we should stop talking unconditional love and leave it at love. Doesn’t sound like it needs the extra addition to it, since it’s not literal and just cultural.

He doesn’t say love one another as you would love a child or your spouse. He says to love one another as he has loved us suggesting that the way He loves us has its own distinction. What do you think about this?
I guess that depends on what you think love is and if Jesus’ love is different from what God tells us love is in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7
 

rainerann

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Yes it makes sense in that maybe we should stop talking unconditional love and leave it at love. Doesn’t sound like it needs the extra addition to it, since it’s not literal and just cultural.


I guess that depends on what you think love is and if Jesus’ love is different from what God tells us love is in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7
So the reason for the cultural definition is that you can’t use love without addint some kind of modifier.

we can use degrees to illustrate this again. There is boiling point love and there is luke warm love for example.

How would you rate the love you have for you husband or your son versus the love you have towards your pastor?

Say like pastor 68 degrees. Husband 97 degrees. Son 97 degrees. When you say that you love these people, how would you modify the word love to show the different experience of love that you feel?

In 1 corinthians 13, we could say that love is modified as kind love, patient love, unselfish love. This is all packaged in the way we culturally understand unconditional love.

Love is a noun and like any noun in the English language, we can modify it with different adjectives the same way we would narrow down a description of a chair. It is a blue chair. Or a window. It is a large window. So love is not meant to stand alone because we combine words according to these rules to refine meaning so that we can express ourselves in a unique way.
 

Lisa

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So the reason for the cultural definition is that you can’t use love without addint some kind of modifier.

we can use degrees to illustrate this again. There is boiling point love and there is luke warm love for example.

How would you rate the love you have for you husband or your son versus the love you have towards your pastor?

Say like pastor 68 degrees. Husband 97 degrees. Son 97 degrees. When you say that you love these people, how would you modify the word love to show the different experience of love that you feel?

In 1 corinthians 13, we could say that love is modified as kind love, patient love, unselfish love. This is all packaged in the way we culturally understand unconditional love.

Love is a noun and like any noun in the English language, we can modify it with different adjectives the same way we would narrow down a description of a chair. It is a blue chair. Or a window. It is a large window. So love is not meant to stand alone because we combine words according to these rules to refine meaning so that we can express ourselves in a unique way.
I can agree to a degree...why use the modifier unconditional when it’s really not and shouldn’t be anyway? That’s not the kind of love God wants people to have for one another. A kind that doesn’t have any kind of conditions to it, because try as hard as you all may, unconditional love technically means loving without conditions.

I don’t see where you have to have a different kind of love for people if you are using the 1 Corinthians standard. The only difference would be the love for a spouse in regard to sex.

I am reminded that scripture tells us that we love because God first loved us, we don’t know how to love really, not a real love. God spends so much time in a Christian’s life remaking him/her to be more like Christ, it doesn’t come naturally and I don’t think love does either, not the type of love scriptures talks about anyway.
 

rainerann

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I can agree to a degree...why use the modifier unconditional when it’s really not and shouldn’t be anyway? That’s not the kind of love God wants people to have for one another. A kind that doesn’t have any kind of conditions to it, because try as hard as you all may, unconditional love technically means loving without conditions.

I don’t see where you have to have a different kind of love for people if you are using the 1 Corinthians standard. The only difference would be the love for a spouse in regard to sex.

I am reminded that scripture tells us that we love because God first loved us, we don’t know how to love really, not a real love. God spends so much time in a Christian’s life remaking him/her to be more like Christ, it doesn’t come naturally and I don’t think love does either, not the type of love scriptures talks about anyway.
Technically speaking, people treat unconditional love as an umbrella under which they place their highest standard of love. So when people say "unconditional love", they are trying to tell you what they think love means in its purest form. It demonstrates their effort to speak from the heart so harping on the technicalities regarding the definition of unconditional is the same as being indifferent to what people expect from love.

Technically speaking if the only difference between love for a spouse and love of just another person is in regard to sex, we would still modify this to say "sexual love." I truly hope that isn't the only difference between the love that you have for your husband and the love that you have towards other people.

If God first loved us, we are back to where I mentioned that God's love is pre-existant. If it came naturally, it would come before you met the person. That would be natural, but it's not. So the best that we can hope for as disciples is the willingness to love someone before you encounter them. When you are on your way to the bank, is there any reason you have to not love your bank teller? No, so why don't we love our bank tellers before we get to the bank? Because they might not be trustworthy. Because they might do something that offends us. Because of a lot of reasons we base on past experiences, but are they really legitimate reasons not to love someone we haven't met who hasn't had the opportunity to do us harm yet? No, they aren't, and to love them is not what is expected, and as Christians, we should be full of surprises like this.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Technically speaking, people treat unconditional love as an umbrella under which they place their highest standard of love. So when people say "unconditional love", they are trying to tell you what they think love means in its purest form. It demonstrates their effort to speak from the heart so harping on the technicalities regarding the definition of unconditional is the same as being indifferent to what people expect from love.

Technically speaking if the only difference between love for a spouse and love of just another person is in regard to sex, we would still modify this to say "sexual love." I truly hope that isn't the only difference between the love that you have for your husband and the love that you have towards other people.

If God first loved us, we are back to where I mentioned that God's love is pre-existant. If it came naturally, it would come before you met the person. That would be natural, but it's not. So the best that we can hope for as disciples is the willingness to love someone before you encounter them. When you are on your way to the bank, is there any reason you have to not love your bank teller? No, so why don't we love our bank tellers before we get to the bank? Because they might not be trustworthy. Because they might do something that offends us. Because of a lot of reasons we base on past experiences, but are they really legitimate reasons not to love someone we haven't met who hasn't had the opportunity to do us harm yet? No, they aren't, and to love them is not what is expected, and as Christians, we should be full of surprises like this.
I think there is a danger in extrapolating from our own capacities to love to God’s that we confuse a dim reflection with reality. Our own human love is conditional, changeable and flawed, and is more often than not based on what we get from a relationship.

It is rather like someone who has only experienced water in a glass, a fishpond or a canal trying to understand what the Pacific Ocean is like.
 

rainerann

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I think there is a danger in extrapolating from our own capacities to love to God’s that we confuse a dim reflection with reality. Our own human love is conditional, changeable and flawed, and is more often than not based on what we get from a relationship.

It is rather like someone who has only experienced water in a glass, a fishpond or a canal trying to understand what the Pacific Ocean is like.
So you're saying that God's love exceeds what a pre-existent foundation provides as a covering for shortcomings, flaws, etc. that haven't manifested yet?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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So you're saying that God's love exceeds what a pre-existent foundation provides as a covering for shortcomings, flaws, etc. that haven't manifested yet?
Nothing so profound! I was more thinking that we are somewhat limited in comprehending God’s love. It needs to be said that, being God, His other attributes are not eclipsed by love, and that his righteousness, holiness and justice are also absolute, and that in eternity, nobody would be able to declare him unjust for judging sin and rebellion.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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P.s. perhaps there is an echo of God challenging the way we extrapolate from our experience in this quotation from Matthew 7?

7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
 

Lisa

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Technically speaking, people treat unconditional love as an umbrella under which they place their highest standard of love. So when people say "unconditional love", they are trying to tell you what they think love means in its purest form. It demonstrates their effort to speak from the heart so harping on the technicalities regarding the definition of unconditional is the same as being indifferent to what people expect from love.

Technically speaking if the only difference between love for a spouse and love of just another person is in regard to sex, we would still modify this to say "sexual love." I truly hope that isn't the only difference between the love that you have for your husband and the love that you have towards other people.

If God first loved us, we are back to where I mentioned that God's love is pre-existant. If it came naturally, it would come before you met the person. That would be natural, but it's not. So the best that we can hope for as disciples is the willingness to love someone before you encounter them. When you are on your way to the bank, is there any reason you have to not love your bank teller? No, so why don't we love our bank tellers before we get to the bank? Because they might not be trustworthy. Because they might do something that offends us. Because of a lot of reasons we base on past experiences, but are they really legitimate reasons not to love someone we haven't met who hasn't had the opportunity to do us harm yet? No, they aren't, and to love them is not what is expected, and as Christians, we should be full of surprises like this.
I don’t think it’s harping as much as let’s stay truthful. I personally can’t say unconditional love is real in explaining love. If it’s not true to what it means then let’s not say it is. Let’s not give words new meanings. Like the word gay used to mean something else entirely. I miss that meaning, a street near where I grew up was gay street and now instead of meaning happily excited it means homosexual. You can’t say I’m feeling gay today and people know what you’re meaning, they will think of the newer meaning.

What would the differences be other than sex?

When you are talking about loving someone before you meet them...isn’t that what we all do in a way. We meet someone and have no judgement of them because they haven’t done anything to us, so we can put our best foot forward. Why first impressions mean so much, that can start or tank any relationship.

I don’t look at God’s love as pre-existant because God is love.

Thanks Ann, for sticking with this conversation even though most people gave up in annoyance that I just don’t get it.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I don’t mean to interject into this conversation but I have to ask this question.

When you love someone, does that love cease when you act in judgement towards them? The moment my kids misbehave, I sometimes act in love by busting them. Often that might mean they withdraw their liking of me and may even speak against me but my first priority has got to be what is right and good for them, not just what is popular.

I see this same pattern in the OT with the Hebrews and their relationship with God. They seem like children testing their parent with the repeated same kinds of misbehaviour. The “five cycles of discipline” show a progression in the severity of judgement but the story of the Prodigal Son shows that God’s preference is grace and restored relationship.
 

Lisa

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When you love someone, does that love cease when you act in judgement towards them?
But do you feel you’re acting in love with your children when you get angry at their behavior and bust them for it? Could you say you fell out of love and then restored that love with punishment?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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P.p.s. I never understood what God’s love was till I was born again. It is God, via the Holy Spirit, who shows us His heart for others, even the least appealing.

An extract from the memoir of Christabel Bielenberg gives a glimpse of God’s love for the truly unlovely...

The window I had climbed through would not close properly and a numbing cold seemed to be creeping upwards from my feet, but the voice, just a voice in the darkness, went on and on, sometimes pitched so low that I could hardly hear it above the creaking and rumbling of the train, sometimes raised to a note of near hysteria. He told me that he had resigned from the Death Commandos and joined the Waffen SS, the fighting SS units, and he told me of how he had tried to be killed, but his comrades had fallen around him and each time, by some miracle, he had lived. The ones with the photographs in their wallets, the frightened ones, and the ones with dreams of the future, they were the ones who got killed, he said. Only those who didn't care, got the Iron Crosses. Now he was going to the front, to his unit if he could reach it, otherwise anywhere, anywhere, did I hear, where he would be allowed to die.​
During his story I had found it increasingly difficult to listen. I had eaten practically nothing all day and the cold in the carriage was intense. As I fought wave after wave of exhaustion, my head kept falling forward and only the most startling points of his story penetrated the fog of sleep. The little fair-haired Jewish boy-- the old Rabbi. Oh God, was it for these that Adam [von Trott, one of the main anti-Hitler conspirators] had done penance and maybe now, Peter, too?​
Some two years back I had been in a tram with Nicky when an elderly lady, with the Jewish star pinned to her coat, had got up from her place so that my Aryan eight-year-old son could sit down, I had got up too and the three of us had stood silently looking at the empty seats. I had felt quite proud of my little gesture at the time. How utterly feeble it seemed now. Too much-- too much. "You are silent, Gnädige Frau? You are horrified at my story?" He seemed very near.​
"No--no," my own voice from somewhere far away; it seemed no longer my own. "I am not horrified, I think I pity you, for you have more on your conscience than can be absolved by your death."​
And suddenly, for a second in time, the fogs cleared and it was as if Adam's and Carl's [Carl Langbehn] dying and Peter's imprisonment seemed a splendid, glowing, real thing, absolutely necessary and right. "But others have died and may have to die for you," I heard myself murmuring. I do not know if he heard, as I was already nearly asleep. The train rumbled rhythmically onwards into the night. Totteridge where I was born-- a village church-- a small Chris collecting her weekly text at children's service. Miss Osborne at the organ. "He died that we might be forgiven. He died to make us good. He died-- He died--"​
I awoke twice before reaching Tuttlingen. Once, when the train jerked to a stop at a half-lit station, I realized that I was warmer and that my head was resting on something hard and uncomfortable. The man had moved and was sitting beside me, his greatcoat was over my knees and my head had fallen on to his shoulder. Ss_latvian_ring_ps His SS shoulder tabs had been pressing into my cheek. In the half light I saw his face for the second time: perhaps I had been mistaken about that twitching nerve; it looked peaceful enough now, almost childlike. His hand, with the signet ring of the SS, was resting on mine, and as I moved it closed with an almost desperate grip and then relaxed. I put my head back on his shoulder gently, so as not to waken him, and I slept again. The next time I woke, the carriage was empty and the train was moving. A grey, cold dawn lightened the window. I glanced involuntarily at the sky and the low snow-clouds scudding past. It was not going to be a very good day for an air-raid I thought, and so there was a chance that I might be home in my valley before evening.​
--From the book The Past Is Myself (1983) by Christabel Bielenberg.​
 

Red Sky at Morning

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But do you feel you’re acting in love with your children when you get angry at their behavior and bust them for it? Could you say you fell out of love and then restored that love with punishment?
Good question - sometimes standing up to wrongdoing is the most loving thing you can do, and that provided my anger is directed at the action, not the person, it is still done in love. Love wishes to see the image of God grow in your kids. You don’t cease to live when you are angry. Love is not a “feeling of love” but a deliberate, established commitment to the best for an individual.

Hebrews 12

The Discipline of God

3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
 

Lisa

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You don’t cease to live when you are angry.
I beg to differ there...anger can turn love cold, otherwise we wouldn’t have divorced people or child abuse. I always think its ironic that divorced parents always tell their children that even though they got divorced from their spouse, that they will always love their children..how can one really make a promise like that when they broke another promise to love forever their spouse.

One time I was outside gardening and this boy walked by, he lived on the next street, and I think he might have come to my Good News club..anyway he stopped and started talking to me and told me his parents got divorced and I think that when I told him that I was sorry to hear about that, I made a friend for life so happy he looked that someone understood that it was painful for him. How then can children of divorced parents really know that love can last or even last for them, when they see it doesn’t last?
 

justjess

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romantic love is entireky different than filial love and while it can be unconditional it usually isnt.

all of which has nothing to do with the fact you can be angry at someone and love them at the same time.
 
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