No regard...for the desire of women

[Colonel Valerio]

The issue, to me, is this: by forbidding female infanticide, Muhammad saved more women's lives than anybody on this board probably ever will. The rest is academic, and worth discussing, no doubt, but that point stands on its own.

Except there isn’t any solid evidence that can determine how common the practice was, if it was any more or less widespread than the rest of the ancient world or if it was strictly based on girls.

There’s also this, is it a mercy to be killed as infant if it spares you a life of slavery and brutality?

 

[Haich]

I see their little girls,

Their .

Intolerance noted.

 

[Lisa]

Their .

Intolerance noted.

Lol! Its their little girls not mine, how is that intolerance? And how else would I word it?

 

[Haich]

Lol! Its their little girls not mine, how is that intolerance? And how else would I word it?

Yeah that's enough for me today, you've reminded me why I don't come on as often.

I hope you have lovely weekend at your window.

 

[justjess]

Do they make their women wear tents? Doesn’t seem so. Ya, they want their men and women to dress modestly..but not in tents. The wig thing..idk what that’s really about but they can also and do wear hats and scarves..so, not sure how that is so wrong. Do, they do it like the muslims? Where the whole of the face and hair and sometimes even the eyes are covered? No, the article doesn’t mention that they do it that way.

I don’t know that I was here a year ago and I can’t remember the discussion of a year ago anyway.

This is your thread. I brought up that issue in this - your - thread at the time you made it. You made comments after it but entirely ignored it then and feign ignorance now...

I’ve been around Orthodox Jews my whole life. I am telling you the women are required to wear long sleeved, long dresses with high collars and WIGS to cover their hair. It is not any different then the “costume” (as you called it) that most Muslim women have to wear. Save for the few wearing the face covering which is a minuscule minority and not the main issue given in this thread - the “tent” is.

A tent which is very similar to what orthodox Jewish women wear. What nuns wear. What Amish women wear. Etc.

Yet you only have a problem when it’s the Muslims...

 

[Lisa]

Yeah that's enough for me today, you've reminded me why I don't come on as often.

I hope you have lovely weekend at your window.

I only just came back but ok.

What the heck are ya talking about? Lol

 

[Lisa]

This is your thread. I brought up that issue in this - your - thread at the time you made it. You made comments after it but entirely ignored it then and feign ignorance now...

I’ve been around Orthodox Jews my whole life. I am telling you the women are required to wear long sleeved, long dresses with high collars and WIGS to cover their hair. It is not any different then the “costume” (as you called it) that most Muslim women have to wear. Save for the few wearing the face covering which is a minuscule minority and not the main issue given in this thread - the “tent” is.

A tent which is very similar to what orthodox Jewish women wear. What nuns wear. What Amish women wear. Etc.

Yet you only have a problem when it’s the Muslims...

Don’t know what to tell ya, it was years ago.

Again, I haven’t see the tents of orthodox Jewish women, so I really can’t comment to that. Ya, the nuns are a class on their own, thinking they are devoted to God but so far away from Him, that’s sad and uncalled for. I think the Amish just wear long dresses, but I haven’t seen any with their hair covered.

Well, its the tents ya know..I agree, I do have a problem with them.

 

[Serveto]

Except there isn’t any solid evidence that can determine how common the practice was, if it was any more or less widespread than the rest of the ancient world or if it was strictly based on girls.

There’s also this, is it a mercy to be killed as infant if it spares you a life of slavery and brutality?

Your point is legitimate, but it seems to me, rather like the Islamic prohibition against usury (rib'a) and alcohol, there would have been no need for the Quran to prohibit something which wasn't practiced. Again, I don't rely exclusively upon the Quran and compilers of ahadith for all of my information anyway. Ibn al-Tabari, for instance, is a good read, and he is respected by many "modern" historians exactly because he included, in his histories, at times conflicting and unflattering reports of early Arabian, pagan and Islamic, behavior. I've only read one of his Volumes, translated into English as "Muhammad at Mecca.," but it was informative and worthwhile.

Edit to add:
Ibn al-Tabari, in the Volume I reference, does not, as I recall, at any point address the issue of female infanticide. I just generally recommend him as an informative, if flawed, writer of early Arabian history

 

[justjess]

Have you ever met a Jew? An Amish person?

Any one who isn’t a wasp?

 

[Lisa]

Have you ever met a Jew? An Amish person?

Any one who isn’t a wasp?

I was stung by a wasp once...does that count? Lol!

I might have met a Jew..who knows? I worked in retail, saw a lot of people.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

Your point is legitimate, but it seems to me, rather like the Islamic prohibition against usury (rib'a) and alcohol, there would have been no need for the Quran to prohibit something which wasn't practiced. Again, I don't rely exclusively upon the Quran and compilers of ahadith for all of my information anyway. Ibn al-Tabari, for instance, is a good read, and he is respected by many "modern" historians exactly because he included, in his histories, at times conflicting and unflattering reports of early Arabian, pagan and Islamic, behavior. I've only read one of his Volumes, translated into English as "Muhammad at Mecca.," but it was informative and worthwhile.

Fair enough. I suppose it could be used as a point to aid in growing a religion. Most people know killing a born child is wrong and coming out opposed to it could help attract followers. It is a good thing to ban it of course, but I can’t help but see it through a lens of Islamic history trying to paint pre-Islamic times as evil or Satanic.

I’m more concerned about today then the past, and I think we can agree that there is a huge problem with this treatment of women throughout the Muslim world. Change is inevitable of course an there are reformers who need to be heard, just like Judaism and Christianity ( most of it anyway) before it, Islam will be dragged out of the 7th century and into modernity, kicking and screaming,but it will happen.

 

[Lisa]

It’s actually funny that in my op, I actually talked about more than just the tent problem with islam but no one talks about anything else..and I’m supposed to be obsessed about it?

 

[justjess]

I was stung by a wasp once...does that count? Lol!

I might have met a Jew..who knows? I worked in retail, saw a lot of people.

If you’d ever met an Orthodox Jew or an Amish person you would know it. So I’ll take that as a no. Probably a no for a regular Jew too.

 

[Orwell's mentor]

Its what I think I know

I see their little girls, they usually don’t wear any coverings, in fact I saw one the other day, running around happy and then saw her mom, covered up...what a life to look forward too...

The point of Christianity if you’re interested is to be saved by Jesus, which is why being nice isn’t the point...

I see. So you're basically making assumptions on what you see and interpreting it on how YOU think they should live, correct? Thereby, just giving your uneducated opinion without even speaking to them. I'm curious, do you think any of them would want to change places with you? According to your ignorant posts about people you don't even converse with and then make up scenarios about them in your head, you don't seem to offer too much...

 

[Lisa]

I am a woman and as a woman, it looks exactly what it is, a cloth prison. I wouldn’t want to wear it and be nothing.

If they were able to be honest, yes I think they would like to live without the prison but I think they are also deceived as to who God is and have believed a god.

I have my opinion as do you, only in offering my opinion, I don’t belittle yours.

 

[justjess]

Tell me how any of this is any different or better than Muslim dress codes

 

[Lisa]

Tell me how any of this is any different or better than Muslim dress codes

If you don’t see the difference, I surely can’t help you.

 

[justjess]

View attachment 24305
If you don’t see the difference, I surely can’t help you.

That isn’t what the vast majority of Muslim women wear and that isn’t all you were referring to either.

And the premise and underlying beliefs of all those “costumes” is exactly the same

 

[Lisa]

And the premise and underlying beliefs of all those “costumes” is exactly the same

I don’t see it.

 

[justjess]

I don’t see it.

Then your trying REALLY hard not to