High watch times (discerning the season vs date setting)

[Lisa]

@Lisa

Let me tell you where I’m at on the big picture and how that relates this issue...

I make a conscious distinction between primary things that are essential for salvation and secondary doctrines that don’t have a bearing on it. I will stand till you chop my legs off for salvation by grace trough faith in the completed work of Jesus. There is no other “gospel” that will save anyone. On the other hand, a if I was talking with saved person who is struggling over their interpretation of Genesis, I might share what I had found out but it would not be a battle I would fight at all costs.

In the spirit of the second case, the timing of the Lord’s return, and whether or not a “catching away” happens before the Tribulation is not something I would argue over. The reason why I won’t is because it is based on certain presuppositions:-

- The distinctness of “the Church” and Israel.

- The timing of “The Kingdom” - is it now, established by the body conquering the “seven mountains of influence” or is it to be established by Jesus during the Millennium.

- Your understanding of the relationship between “The Gospel of the Kingdom” and the “Gospel of Grace”

- Whether you take an Amillennial, Premillennial or even a Postmillenial view (I have a “Post” friend who has some unique views!)

- Where you stand on the subject of “dispensations”

Out of the understanding of all of the above, our expectations of future events are shaped. Unfortunately I don’t know your background enough to know where you stand on these issues.

I don’t mind talking them over with you without trying to close the case for or against a pre-trib Rapture, but as this question is in a sense the metaphorical cherry on the eschatological cake, it might be worth looking at the cake mix first ;-)

First I’d like to say thank you for taking the time...and I realize from what you said that it took you some time to type that, so thanks!

I don’t think we have a dispute over sharing the gospel..or that that even pertains to this case. However, I do think that there is a danger in believing in the pre trib rapture especially since it really isn’t supported in scripture..like the verses I quoted you. Wish you had talked about how they are wrong, from my perspective, then what you did write..but then you really can’t tell me those verses are wrong..can you? Which is why you have moved onto it being presuppositions? Jesus is the one talking about it..He didn’t mince words.

We worship in spirit and in truth...I think the truth of the rapture is pretty important especially since I really think that some Christians will fall away from the faith when they aren’t pre raptured and haven’t any faith for the tribulation..which is why we will see people..

Matthew‬ ‭24:10‬ ‭
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.​

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‭‭​

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Lisa

You might find me a bit allegorical, but please bear with me - I had this picture on my wall at university and it became somewhat of a metaphor for my understanding of Bible prophecy...



What I liked about it was that distances and relationships between the peaks are shrouded in fog. Which one is closer, which further away, what lies in the valleys?

In Acts 1 the disciples ask the question that many have since:-

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.​

With the above in mind, let me ask you a “big picture” question if I may? Would you say that the clearest expression of the meaning of the gospel (as far as it relates to us) is within the four gospels, or is it in the outworking of the understanding of the atonement as developed by the writers of the epistles?

By the same token, is Matthew 24 the final word on the matter of the end times, or are some of the hidden hills and valleys (including the very gospel to the Gentiles) revealed by subsequent revelation?

 

[Lisa]

@Lisa

You might find me a bit allegorical, but please bear with me - I had this picture on my wall at university and it became somewhat of a metaphor for my understanding of Bible prophecy...

View attachment 23986

What I liked about it was that distances and relationships between the peaks are shrouded in fog. Which one is closer, which further away, what lies in the valleys?

In Acts 1 the disciples ask the question that many have since:-

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.​

With the above in mind, let me ask you a “big picture” question if I may? Would you say that the clearest expression of the meaning of the gospel (as far as it relates to us) is within the four gospels, or is it in the outworking of the understanding of the atonement as developed by the writers of the epistles?

By the same token, is Matthew 24 the final word on the matter of the end times, or are some of the hidden hills and valleys (including the very gospel to the Gentiles) revealed by subsequent revelation?

Wouldn’t you say that

Matthew 24:21-22, 29-31
For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
​

Was pretty clear cut when the rapture could be when Jesus Himself says that He will gather His elect when we see the son of man coming in the clouds.

If you want to bring in another scripture..

‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.​

That seems to confirm what Jesus says that the coming of the Lord and the rapture occur at the same time.

Edit: We seem to be in the falling away phase but I’ve not seen the man of lawlessness revealed and so in that case until that happens there won’t even be a rapture any day.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Wouldn’t you say that

Matthew 24:21-22, 29-31​

For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.​

​

But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​

​

Was pretty clear cut when the rapture could be when Jesus Himself says that He will gather His elect when we see the son of man coming in the clouds.

If you want to bring in another scripture..

‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭​

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.​

That seems to confirm what Jesus says that the coming of the Lord and the rapture occur at the same time.

Edit: We seem to be in the falling away phase but I’ve not seen the man of lawlessness revealed and so in that case until that happens there won’t even be a rapture any day.

A lot hinges on the word “apostasia” which can mean either a spiritual OR a physical departure, depending on the context.

Good read:-



The Day of the Lord will not come unless the "falling away" comes first, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:3. What is this falling away? Is it apostasy, a spiritual departure from the faith, or is it an actual physical rapture? In this book, Dr. Andy Woods gives 10 reasons to believe it is a physical rapture.

*anyway, I said I wasn’t going to argue on this one with you @Lisa - time will tell, and what is now future will one day be past. Next to the doctrines of eternal significance, this one is a topic I find interesting, have a view on, but won’t beat up a fellow believer over ;-)

 

[Lisa]

Is it apostasy, a spiritual departure from the faith, or is it an actual physical rapture?

You seriously don’t know?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You seriously don’t know?

Ok - I will presume from that that you haven’t read the book or studied the usage of the word in the other epistles.

 

[Lisa]

Ok - I will presume from that that you haven’t read the book or studied the usage of the word in the other epistles.

No, I haven’t.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

No, I haven’t.

I’m not being superior btw - I only started looking into it last year!

 

[Lisa]

I’m not being superior btw - I only started looking into it last year!

I didn’t think you were.

I wouldn’t look into it if I were you, only because you have to be careful about the things you look into so that you’re not deceived. Falling away is a real deal, or the Bible wouldn’t have mentioned it and falling away isn’t the rapture. Falling away in this case is falling from the faith.

‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
​

I’ve said this before...but I’ll say it again..I was talking to a lady who a mormon . I said, well, I’m sure it’s easier to be a mormon because you grew up in it and she says, “no, I didn’t grow up in it, I was a baptist and had some missionaries come to my house and I didn’t know anything about it, so I read their literature and converted.” She said she was a grandmother now and her children and her grandchildren were in it. Be careful what you delve into Red.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I didn’t think you were.

I wouldn’t look into it if I were you, only because you have to be careful about the things you look into so that you’re not deceived. Falling away is a real deal, or the Bible wouldn’t have mentioned it and falling away isn’t the rapture. Falling away in this case is falling from the faith.

‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭​

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.​

​

I’ve said this before...but I’ll say it again..I was talking to a lady who a mormon . I said, well, I’m sure it’s easier to be a mormon because you grew up in it and she says, “no, I didn’t grow up in it, I was a baptist and had some missionaries come to my house and I didn’t know anything about it, so I read their literature and converted.” She said she was a grandmother now and her children and her grandchildren were in it. Be careful what you delve into Red.

None taken ;-)

Seriously, I grew up in a variety of denominations. At the last one I went to, a Methodist church, it was very Arminian and most people seemed to be post-trib. I have had several conversations about the “secret rapture”, Derby, Schofield etc. It has also been (not so subtly) suggested to me by them that belief in the Rapture is one of the elements that will comprise the falling away.

After a particular exchange of views with a good friend, I suggested a gentleman’s agreement with my post-trib brother - if I was right, I would request a seat next to him and a glass of new wine at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb. In turn he agreed to buy me a consolation beer (before the Mark becomes compulsory) if a charismatic leader should arise and confirm a seven year treaty between Israel and the surrounding nations

 

[Lisa]

It has also been (not so subtly) suggested to me by them that belief in the Rapture is one of the elements that will comprise the falling away.

That’s what I’ve said too and I believe it to be true. However there does seem to be a falling away of the church where actual Bible believing Christians seem to be getting fewer as new age practices and foolish things like holy laughter enter the church and are taken as truth by some.

After a particular exchange of views with a good friend, I suggested a gentleman’s agreement with my post-trib brother - if I was right, I would request a seat next to him and a glass of new wine at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb. In turn he agreed to buy me a consolation beer (before the Mark becomes compulsory) if a charismatic leader should arise and confirm a seven year treaty between Israel and the surrounding nations

One could only hope that it would be that easy but scripture says otherwise.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

That’s what I’ve said too and I believe it to be true. However there does seem to be a falling away of the church where actual Bible believing Christians seem to be getting fewer as new age practices and foolish things like holy laughter enter the church and are taken as truth by some.


One could only hope that it would be that easy but scripture says otherwise.

We were both being light hearted about a grave topic...

(Hint - one on my heroes of the faith was Steven)

Would you take the view that the weight of theological and biblical evidence indicates a post-trib position and that those who reject that position do so for emotional reasons, or do you concede that people might take a pre-trib view for genuine scriptural reasons.

Just interested in your take...

 

[Lisa]

We were both being light hearted about a grave topic...

(Hint - one on my heroes of the faith was Steven)

Would you take the view that the weight of theological and biblical evidence indicates a post-trib position and that those who reject that position do so for emotional reasons, or do you concede that people might take a pre-trib view for genuine scriptural reasons.

Just interested in your take...

I thought maybe that could be what was going on, I personally don’t think it’s a lighthearted topic but very serious.

From what I know and I used to be pre trib for a long time is that I think most people don’t want to be here for the trib and they don’t think God would make them be here for it. I don’t see a lot of Biblical evidence supporting pre trib which is why I’m pre wrath...I believe biblical evidence supports that. Even a pastor I knew told me once that he’d like to talk about post trib because he thought that was right but wouldn’t preach in it because most people were pre trib and it would upset them. And I was thinking...boy is like to hear that sermon.

Another pastor I knew was also pre trib and he and his congregation, it was small, always talked about flying away at any moment and this world wasn’t our home. They thought they’d be ‘home’ at Christmas that year...I was the one who said not that year nor the next...they just looked at me funny and went on hoping.

And I do believe that like the 10 virgins, the ones that are pre trib aren’t gonna be ready for the coming tribulation because all their eggs were in the pre trib basket.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I thought maybe that could be what was going on, I personally don’t think it’s a lighthearted topic but very serious.

From what I know and I used to be pre trip for a long time is that I think most people don’t want to be here for the trib and they don’t think God would make them be here for it. I don’t see a lot of Biblical evidence supporting pre trib which is why I’m pre wrath...I believe biblical evidence supports that. Even a pastor I knew told me once that he’d like to talk about post trib because he thought that was right but wouldn’t preach in it because most people were pre trib and it would upset them. And I was thinking...boy is like to hear that sermon.

Another pastor I knew was also pre trib and he and his congregation, it was small, always talked about flying away at any moment and this world wasn’t our home. They thought they’d be ‘home’ at Christmas that year...I was the one who said not that year nor the next...they just looked at me funny and went on hoping.

And I do believe that like the 10 virgins, the ones that are pre trib aren’t gonna be ready for the coming tribulation because all their eggs were in the pre trib basket.

The emotional power of having “once thought” something can’t be underestimated. I once thought “word of faith” preachers had it right. Now I don’t and it would be very hard for me to re-examine this view.

In addition, the moral character of preachers who take one view or another has a huge emotional impact on the reception of their doctrine. Imagine one depraved preacher who taught grace but had multiple secret sins, and another who promoted salvation by works and lived an exemplary life.

Separating out such emotions from doctrinal views is always a worthwhile thing to attempt,

I won’t lay any negative slurs on the character, faith or depth biblical knowledge of of those who take a pre-wrath view. In order to get to the truth of things, I suggest that divorcing assumptions about the commitment of fellow believers (difficult as this might be) from the effort to understand the scriptural case, one way or another.

 

[Lisa]

@Red Sky at Morning
https://prewrathrapture.com/fighting_is_not_an_option_during_the_gre/
https://prewrathrapture.com/flight_is_not_an_option_during_the_great/
I think Charles Cooper has some good points in his sermons.
Faith is the only option...that is what I whole heartedly agree on!

I can divorce the commitment level of pre trib believers...however, there is not a scriptural basis for it.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Red Sky at Morning
https://prewrathrapture.com/fighting_is_not_an_option_during_the_gre/
https://prewrathrapture.com/flight_is_not_an_option_during_the_great/
I think Charles Cooper has some good points in his sermons.
Faith is the only option...that is what I whole heartedly agree on!

I can divorce the commitment level of pre trib believers...however, there is not a scriptural basis for it.

Have you noticed that I have not said “there is not a scriptural case for pre-wrath?”. There might be a case presented from scripture that I don’t agree with, but is is A case. In the same way, there IS a scriptural case for “pre-trib” whether you hold to it or not. This is a question of appreciation (without the use of rhetoric) of the strengths and weaknesses of those cases (imo).

 

[Lisa]

Have you noticed that I have not said “there is not a scriptural case for pre-wrath?”. There might be a case presented from scripture that I don’t agree with, but is is A case. In the same way, there IS a scriptural case for “pre-trib” whether you hold to it or not. This is a question of appreciation (without the use of rhetoric) of the strengths and weaknesses of those cases (imo).

I don’t remember what the scriptural case was for pre trib because I did leave it behind as untrue.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I don’t remember what the scriptural case was for pre trib because I did leave it behind as untrue.

Lisa - you are talking with someone who used to be pre-wrath ;-)

Let’s leave for now the question of which one is true and which is not for now and leave that for closing arguments. I listed a number of presuppositions (you might better call them “related doctrines” earlier. I would be interested in your stance on them and would be happy to share my own...

 

[Lisa]

Lisa - you are talking with someone who used to be pre-wrath ;-)

Let’s leave for now the question of which one is true and which is not for now and leave that for closing arguments. I listed a number of presuppositions (you might better call them “related doctrines” earlier. I would be interested in your stance on them and would be happy to share my own...

Gotta say that I’ve never thought about any of your presuppositions to get to the place I am now.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Gotta say that I’ve never thought about any of your presuppositions to get to the place I am now.

Well @Lisa - if you are right, there is no rush to look into them now, and if I’m right, by the time you get round to it you may have Paul helping to talk you through some of the more abstract ideas!

Perhaps we can pick this up again soon - past midnight my time zone so I’m calling it a day!